Ibasso 1 bit Discrete portable DAC with Resistors Array D16

[Whitigir]

Ah, now it is much clearer. I am glad we got it out of the way. In this front of USB interfaces and DDC, the frontman of the USB is a universal chips that identify the function and define the features of the port then forward it toward the device. The only way to bypass this and improve USB interfaces would be to have your own FPGA ordered up and engineered it so that it will only pull and perform functions relating to the devices needs and nothing else (digital music only?)

It will be very expensive in development and fabricating such. I have not yet seen such thing from any manufacturer, I do hope that it will come to that one day. Because USB needs to be compatible to all kind of Operating systems as an example, using the already existing IC for everything is a lot more efficient, also avoid complications and bugs. Sadly, USB never cared about radio/digital music by itself

Oh, and also the Host devices as well, which will need USB with a specific similar FPGA for usb music only, which you can not find anywhere. For example, I build my Raspberry and PC, I could never found a USB sound card by PCIe that bypassing USB host identification. I gave that up. The AudioGD DAC has FPGA on the usb input sides, but that didn’t help the USB either

It might be interesting to look at this subject of USB implementation from a different angle, that being USB output. A lot of people believe that using a mobile phone as a source will give optimum results.

Unfortunately this is not the case. Mobile phone and laptop manufacturers in general are not particularly bothered about audio output through a USB and will employ the most cost effective solution.

And you are totally correct here. The only way to have USB dedicated function port of Music would be to use a PCIE PC with a specific USB sound card, even so, the sound card still have to have an identification universal bus to perform it task. Though much improved over the general USB, you will still have inferior interfaces and performances. It is just the nature of it being

Coax and I2S is all direct and dedicated toward music, with I2S being a much more sensitive connections than Coax, while both are similar in performances. However, I2S and Optical are stuck at 198Khz max or so, as the technology has never progressed any further and being abandoned. There is not enough demand for it.

Yes but then why build "transportable" DAC/AMPs that will obviously mostly be fed by phones, tablets and portable computers? A few but not a lot of people will buy a DAP to then feed a transportable DAC/AMP.

Your limits here would be your phones / tablets usb out interfaces as a host devices. Even if Ibasso could fabricate an FPGA toward music alone for USB interfaces here.

 

[FooFighter]

Oh, and also the Host devices as well, which will need USB with a specific similar FPGA for usb music only, which you can not find anywhere. For example, I build my Raspberry and PC, I could never found a USB sound card by PCIe that bypassing USB host identification. I gave that up. The AudioGD DAC has FPGA on the usb input sides, but that didn’t help the USB either


And you are totally correct here. The only way to have USB dedicated function port of Music would be to use a PCIE PC with a specific USB sound card, even so, the sound card still have to have an identification universal bus to perform it task. Though much improved over the general USB, you will still have inferior interfaces and performances. It is just the nature of it being

Coax and I2S is all direct and dedicated toward music, with I2S being a much more sensitive connections than Coax, while both are similar in performances. However, I2S and Optical are stuck at 198Khz max or so, as the technology has never progressed any further and being abandoned. There is not enough demand for it.



Your limits here would be your phones / tablets usb out interfaces as a host devices. Even if Ibasso could fabricate an FPGA toward music alone for USB interfaces here.

Am streaming 768khz from my DAP into my Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE via I2S but the connection is kind of laggy, takes around 8 secs to establish a connection.
And that's actually also the gripe I am having with coax.
Using Coax connection into the same DAC out of my Ifi Zen Stream there's a lag using Roon and I need to configure some offset in Roon for getting a stable connection for any track change.
All that isn't happening with USB.
Have been choosing the DAC because of its optimized USB Titanis module but that's obviously no industry standard

 

[Whitigir]

Am streaming 768khz from my DAP into my Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE via I2S but the connection is kind of laggy, takes around 8 secs to establish a connection.
And that's actually also the gripe I am having with coax.
Using Coax connection into the same DAC out of my Ifi Zen Stream there's a lag using Roon and I need to configure some offset in Roon for getting a stable connection for any track change.
All that isn't happening with USB.
Have been choosing the DAC because of its optimized USB Titanis module but that's obviously no industry standard

Roon is wireless connection is it ? Forgive me as Roon is out of what I have tried to read upon and I don’t use it. But Coax and Spdif is a features interface for digital music directly , every other features and the signals would have to go over DDC Digital to digital conversion . In the front of DDC, nothing beats USB interfaces for computational purposes

 

[FooFighter]

Roon is wireless connection is it ? Forgive me as Roon is out of what I have tried to read upon and I don’t use it. But Coax and Spdif is a features interface for digital music directly , every other features and the signals would have to go over DDC Digital to digital conversion . In the front of DDC, nothing beats USB interfaces for computational purposes

Roon is a streaming music server playing over Ethernet and using its own protocol but you have a point regarding synchronization over network.
So connecting source and D16 via coax directly there's no lag playing music just like USB-C?

 

[Whitigir]

Roon is a streaming music server playing over Ethernet and using its own protocol but you have a point regarding synchronization over network.
So connecting source and D16 via coax directly there's no lag playing music just like USB-C?

That is correct, no lag from coax or usb C here. I think your lag is caused by Roon conversions by itself. Because I2S and coax was not meant for general digital info

 

[FooFighter]

That is correct

Thx Vince.
I will test this out one day should I get some D16.
Have to check indeed which source does provide coax besides my Ifi Zen Stream which is bound to network usage by design

 

[Z_Showmaster]

Everyone on the debate of inputs has a valid point, the technical difficulties of getting great sound over USB on any device, balanced against practical use cases of a portable device.

The important thing is that D16 provides both USB and Coax, as I believe nigh every full-sized trans-portable offers. Choose the one that sounds better to your ears, is compatible with your sources and audio formats, and the differences will quickly fade in your mind as you listen permanently. The D16's USB definitely sounds different to the Coax, but both really sound fantastic.

Why USB on paper promises so much is because there becomes one single master clock in the chain in the ideal isochronous asynchronous manner. But other things like ground potentials and USB's power supply and a very bloated consumer interface in general have stood in its way.

"The Father of USB Audio" Gordon Rankin has spoken candidly on his invention, the initial promise, and then acknowledging all its strengths and flaws. I highly recommend you check out his interviews on Google but here's a start: www.darko.audio/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies

USB is great especially because there is a single master of timing. It certainly seems elegant versus the bit, master and word clocks getting mashed together into SPDIF and transmitted over Coax, before being unpacked at the destination: the DAC. The thing about SPDIF is that the transport becomes as important as the DAC itself given the independently operated clock, and ideally are designed by the same company to be used together...

And yet high-end audio companies keep using SPDIF. Chord use dual-BNC SPDIF, dCS dual-AES. The dCS Network Bridge (discontinued) eliminated USB and optical outputs entirely.

Many modern transmissions go the I2S way. What's I2S? The same bit, master, word clocks and data, just not folded up into SPDIF.

What was SPDIF's main problem? Managing a clock? Well I2S only gives you three different clocks to manage...

So let's settle on the most feasible format of digital transmission at our disposal, and listen happily from there

 

[Loftprojection]

I'm not technical but if Matrix is able to build a relatively small box DDC that improves even a bit the sound quality coming from phone/laptop USB then why aren't iBasso and other transportable devices manufacturers able to add some stuff in their transportable DAC/AMP to get similar sound quality results. I understand that the D16 and others like it are not very big but maybe they could just increase the size a bit and bring us a better quality USB.

And keep in mind I'm insisting on this because the D16, like other transportable, to me, are mostly targeted at people using laptops and phones.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

That's an interesting way of looking at it and the answer is.. iBasso do that, in their players' Coax outputs!

The Coax output is basically FPGA derived and output as SPDIF - just as it would a DDC.

If investing in a source or an adapter isn't an issue, certainly consider a DX170/DX240/DX260/DX320/DX320 Max as a transport and DDC rolled into one.

A pretty awesome source/DDC it is too. How many others can you name that output DOP128 and PCM 24/384 over coax?

 

[Whitigir]

I'm not technical but if Matrix is able to build a relatively small box DDC that improves even a bit the sound quality coming from phone/laptop USB then why aren't iBasso and other transportable devices manufacturers able to add some stuff in their transportable DAC/AMP to get similar sound quality results. I understand that the D16 and others like it are not very big but maybe they could just increase the size a bit and bring us a better quality USB.

And keep in mind I'm insisting on this because the D16, like other transportable, to me, are mostly targeted at people using laptops and phones.

The matrix is not small, unless you are specifically asking for Ibasso to build a dedicated DDC in similar sizes and form of PB5/D16. But one thing is for sure, I am not getting it. I don’t use my phone for high end quality music, and if I don’t care much about quality music, my 320M alone is quality enough. If I don’t even want to use 320M but a phone, I would go with a usb Dongle. The dongle nowadays is far more advanced than anyone can think of.

However, none of those fit into my usage, and honestly, if I only use phone toward D16, I would careless about whether it is Coax or USB or why USB is degraded in sound. Because I am sure, I ain’t going for a Phone/DDC/D16 in a stack.

Logically, I go for 3 pieces and it is 320M/D16/PB5

 

[FooFighter]

I agree use case is the decision maker
We are talking about a transportable if not desktop approach then.
Otherwise only Phone to D16 will make sense for on the go.
Or getting the lightest and cheapest DAP providing the best interface (e.g the before mentioned DX170) and then regarding amping on top of that it's again the question if PB5 will add too much bulk for an on the go solution.
So imho any TOTL DAP will be a more convenient on the go solution than such a stack.
The stack Vince is mentioning is about maximizing SQ using portable components regardless of use case

But maybe one question:

What's the benefit of some DX320 Max besides bigger battery and screen and memory for connecting D16 vs any other lighter and cheaper Coax capable source like for example DX170?

 

[Whitigir]

That's an interesting way of looking at it and the answer is.. iBasso do that, in their players' Coax outputs!

The Coax output is basically FPGA derived and output as SPDIF - just as it would a DDC.

If investing in a source or an adapter isn't an issue, certainly consider a DX170/DX240/DX260/DX320/DX320 Max as a transport and DDC rolled into one.

Yes, it is possible because Coax is a more direct VS USB isn’t it ? Because UsB have to go through different strings before it knows to output digital music signals from the “host devices”.

I forgot about this matrix DDC, but I also did try it out of my PC desktop setup and it was still inferior to direct Coax. Because in the end, it was originally USB from my PC passing toward it. The same as I was feeding PCIE USB card toward my AudioGD which has an FPGA inside for it as well. I couldn’t get rid of that DDC fast enough. Therefore, in the end of the day, if you have to use your phones UsB out, nothing can improve upon it for you. Your limit will still be your phone

With all of this, it reminded me of why I was always sticking with Ibasso and moving on from other devices with 2 main features

1/ true line out
2/ Coax as an option

It just happened so that now Ibasso also have a dedicated DAC with Coax and a Discrete topology for D-A conversion. I grabbed it out of curiosity, but it far exceeded my expectations and no regret. The D16 is my holy grail, regardless of USB or Coax, but since I aim for the best, I love Coax. I knew from the beginning that Coax was one of the main feature from the D16 I would want, and I am happy that it perform exceedingly exceptional

 

[Whitigir]

All of this discussion is interesting indeed. May be the next successor would have a USB direct to FPGA interface together with a Max that has Dual USB ports:
1/ for conventional USB
2/ USB just Audio interface directly

If anyone can make it happen, it would be team Ibasso @Paul - iBasso . For now, I am back to enjoying my stuff. Still can not believe how good it is . I never thought it would be possible

However, I don’t see how it could be possible to have the best USB audio quality out of a smartphone or tablet. I would be interested to see any smartphone that Carry or Implement a dedicated USB just for Audio Transport purposes. If you want the best, you aim for the best, there is no in between, and for D16, the best of it would be from a proper Coax to itself and using as a Line out source to an external amp, which brings the PB5 into the picture

 

[FooFighter]

All of this discussion is interesting indeed. May be the next successor would have a USB direct to FPGA interface together with a Max that has Dual USB ports:
1/ for conventional USB
2/ USB just Audio interface directly

If anyone can make it happen, it would be team Ibasso @Paul - iBasso . For now, I am back to enjoying my stuff. Still can not believe how good it is . I never thought it would be possible

However, I don’t see how it could be possible to have the best USB audio quality out of a smartphone or tablet. I would be interested to see any smartphone that Carry or Implement a dedicated USB just for Audio Transport purposes. If you want the best, you aim for the best, there is no in between, and for D16, the best of it would be from a proper Coax to itself and using as a Line out source to an external amp, which brings the PB5 into the picture

While I technically fully agree with your points I am asking myself how far are we then from a desktop stack solution yet existing today?
So where's the frontier between maximum mobile stacking and desktop setup?

Tbh the first thought I had seeing D16 was : Ibasso is producing a competition product for Shanling H7.
And actually I got curious cause I bought DC Elite Dongle before and was so stunned about the performance of this dongle that I thought D16 could be a bridge device with SQ performance between DX320 and DX320 Max and enough amping power with ca 1 Watts not needing an extra amp.
So a really mobile on the go TOTL DaC/Amp device.
But it's turning out for me it's having a DAC-Amp design of Cayin N7 (without the DAP part obviously) and Noone is really advertising it as a standalone device fed from any source but preferably only within a stack of more dedicated partly new devices creating a mobile TOTL stack.
Interesting too but not what I expected before

 

[KaiFi]

It's not what I expected either. I'd rather have something intended to be used as an all-in-one DAC/amp unit than as part of a very expensive TOTL stack. But these initial reviews give me the impression that it does hold its own as a standalone DAC/amp without being part of a TOTL stack. At this point, I think I will order it when it's available on Bloom or another audio site I know well. I have no intention of using it with anything other than my laptop and my ZMF headphones, so I'll report on how I find it stands up as a DAC/amp on its own without any "companion" devices. I'll be comparing it to other flagship portable DAC/amps I've tried, like the Fiio Q7 and xDuoo XD05 Pro.