Ibasso 1 bit Discrete portable DAC with Resistors Array D16

[Z_Showmaster]

Would it make sense to upgrade the D16 with the AMP13 option (https://ibasso.com/product/AMP13/) if going solo.
It would obviously not be a real substitute for the PB5?

The Amp13 can't be used with D16, it is a modular amp built only for the DX300 and DX320.

 

[FooFighter]

If using a LO into PB5 you will have no choice but to use the digital volume control for trim in order to bring down the 3.3V output to the 2.5V one iBasso advise.

This part puzzles me tbh
Weren't D16 and PB5 designed to work together?
Why this mismatch?
2nd question.
How will gain in LO mode high or low influence the voltage into PB5?
If it's still too much in low gain I am also wondering how Alex @twister comments regarding pleasant surprises regarding using PO - though double amping - might relate to these dependencies

 

[Z_Showmaster]

This part puzzles me tbh
Weren't D16 and PB5 designed to work together?
Why this mismatch?
2nd question.
How will gain in LO mode high or low influence the voltage into PB5?
If it's still too much in low gain I am also wondering how Alex Twisters comments regarding pleasant surprises regarding using PO - though double amping - might relate to these dependencies

Indeed D16 and PB5 were designed to work together, but I believe with D16's DAC working differentially there was only so low they could get their output voltage to, and work is necessary in D16's DSP then to bring that to the targeted 2.5V.

In reality, 2.5V balanced in is very low, and therefore an exception. As an iBasso dealer I must uphold the official message but having tested with a variety of 4V sources before I've experienced zero problem. I cannot say how that will hold up long-term in product reliability so that's my disclaimer.

But my educated guess is that you'll have no problem using 3.3V (digital vol 100, 'L' setting) into PB5 as the jump from 2.5V is rather small (less than 2-3dB difference).

Regarding Alex's comments on him getting great results using the PO out into PB5, it's likely down to him enjoying:

1. A great, low output impedance voltage source
2. Zero digital attenuation, zero dynamic range resolution lost and great S/N
3. The stepped attenuator preserving resolution as he adjusts output

The only drawback is double-amping, the passing through an unnecessary power amplification stage in D16 now. These are my assumptions, I would wait for Alex's full findings.

 

[Whitigir]

I'm of the school to always go for the analog volume control option if there's one, over a digital control, but that's now been tempered by the realism of:

1. How loud do I really listen?
2. The quality of digital volume controls today, how ubiquitous they are in everything and the cost of adding a supplementary analog controls

Regarding (1), I typically achieve 75dB max for two-channel, and I can assume it's lower for IEMs and headphones. Given these two tables below, I certainly still have signal-to-noise headroom if I need to attenuate to 75dB, with travel on a digital control to spare.



Source: ESS Technology / Resonessence Labs who also wrote a disclaimer justifying a digital volume control over an analog one. It's a claimed 132dB DAC so assume D16 will start losing resolution a bit higher up in attenuation in these charts

Now, the above charts are theoretical, they are specific to a $8,000 product and may not reflect everyone else's digital volume control, but it's a guide. If using a LO into PB5 you will have no choice but to use the digital volume control for trim in order to bring down the 3.3V output to the 2.5V one iBasso advise.

So it would be really good to see what @audionewbi's friend uncovered with his measurements of the D16's volume control. My guess is, the innocuous drop in dynamic range resolution going to 2.5V will be overshadowed by the PB5's noise floor in the first place.

As for using the phone out on D16 I will still always use the stepped attenuator that iBasso designed because it's clearly no ordinary analog volume control like RME are describing. And it's a permanent fact that only an analog volume control can increase and decrease both signal and noise levels at the same time.

BUT, like the discussion of Coax vs USB neither is outrightly better than the other, just subjectively different, and so it's perfectly understandable @Whitigir prefers the sound of digital attenuation over analog attenuation. In which case D16 is well equipped because it would seem its 'L' analog gain is very close to unity gain, 4V LO output and 4.2V 'L' PO output (load unspecified).

Which brings me to my hack on getting the best out of a volume control, be it digital or analog – climb that knob as high as you can, attenuate as little as possible. Which means you need a device with as low a closed-loop gain as possible, ideally working at unity like D16.

What annoys me most today is with manufacturers who apply excessive, way too much, gain to their product, and those that build with op-amps are particularly guilty of this. Those parts have crazy open-loop gain that either manufacturers don't fully close down, or they apply so much feedback to the part to get the gain to 'practical IEM use levels' that that spawns other problems...

These are problems far less likely if a manufacturer builds discrete, and is something I will always respect them for, in combatting 2024's real enemy of dynamic range and signal-to-noise ratio: gain. I mean, it's 2024. We've made huge progress building great portable DACs and digital volume controls, but if we don't target the real problem those advancements would mean squat real-world.

Thank you for providing more details from ESS and bit losses between digital/analog attenuations and the unity gains makes a lot of senses VS Opamp open loops Gains and you are totally right!!!!!!!. I have, and had always been a fan of analog attenuations, and especially “Stepped attenuations” !!! I have never would imagined that any portable products could have it implemented at all. Needless to say, on the 320Max, I was proven that the stepped attenuations were better than Digital attenuation, and it was one of the Major reason as of why I was so excited seeing both the PB5/D16 to sport it. The films Foiled resistors on the attenuators are actually of 0.1% precision as much as the D16 array itself, which is top tier for stepped attenuations for sure!!!!

I don’t know exactly what is really going on behind the engineering senses of the D16 at all, and as a curious mind, I always try to find the best way to enjoy my music. The D16 proved to me several different degrees into what I am trying to enjoy, and so far…. It really greatly are bugging me

1/ I never thought digital could sound so analog this way! I was always readily be trading for tape hisses and crackles/pop on LP for this analogues tier of performances. Well, not anymore !! I now can enjoy these analogues performances out of digital with The D16, and no need to Suffer those hisses/pops/crackles!!!! Better yet!! It is palm sizes and battery operated !!!

2/ Never thought I would be so wrong about off line DSD conversions VS on the fly Processing!! May be I am not , and may be the fact of how these both of these coax/PWM are working, and that DSD have to be DXD or PCM, which is converted by the sources and sent over Coax…but honestly. If the original files were 16/44.1 then it is best be sticking to it and not have to bother with any other stuff

3/ Why would digital attenuations sound better than analog ? And I have to 1000% agreed with you about the loudness of what I am listening too. With the D16, I can listen to very low volume. Perhaps, the lowest level out of all the stuff I have. I think it is due to the fact that D16 can retrieve and reproduce the Dynamic ranges and the variations of it too well!!! It has really escaped my human ability to tell the differences.

Finally, I have been reading around and it appears to me that we will be dwelling into dynamic ranges, capacitive loading, feedbacks especially for a pure analog filters from D16 as a designed architectures. But honestly, there is so much thing that the D16 are doing, and proven me wrong. I would love to learn more about @audionewbi friend findings.

Let’s put it in layman term, to my technical brain, the D16 is like a unicorn ….what ? I didn’t say it, I never would say it, but …. I can’t be denying the truth . But just stay there, because I sure am going to find materials and knowledge sources to learn more about you and what you are, D16…Because, no Unicorn can exist!!!

 

[audionewbi]

I honestly don't think iBasso officially recommending PB5+D16. PB5 is more for max thanks to the max's ability to work within PB5 recommended range.
Can D16+PB5 work? Sure as sound is subjective, but officially ibasso isn't bundling it.

In Australia, there is still a window where you can return your products, even for change of mind, I urge members to try for themselves, in case you might end up with two incompatible product and your country doesn't have such consumer protection laws.

 

[FooFighter]

I honestly don't think iBasso officially recommending PB5+D16. PB5 is more for max thanks to the max's ability to work within PB5 recommended range.
Can D16+PB5 work? Sure as sound is subjective, but officially ibasso isn't bundling it.

In Australia, there is still a window where you can return your products, even for change of mind, I urge members to try for themselves, in case you might end up with two incompatible product and your country doesn't have such consumer protection laws.

@Paul - iBasso can you please comment on compatibility of D16 and PB5?

 

[FooFighter]

Sleek bedside setup.
D16 fed by Ifi Zen Stream playing through Roon.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

What do you enjoy using from the Zen Stream into D16? The Zen Stream's outputs have each received iFi treatment.

 

[FooFighter]

What do you enjoy using from the Zen Stream into D16? The Zen Stream's outputs have each received iFi treatment.

Ifi Zen Stream is actually my companion for a long time in a sleek format providing Tidal Connect and Roon/HQPLAYER functionality without needing to worry about streaming quality.
75% of my listening time due to time schedule with work and family is in bed so I am not fully bound to only battery powered devices.
Mobile phone is free of cables and needed only as a remote for streaming services.
After listening I can put mobile devices just into the drawer and done.
Btw I ve tried an expensive 3.5mm to Cinch Oehlbach cable but unfortunately D16 wasn't identified.
USB-C is working like a charm though

 

[Loftprojection]

Sonically, I love D16 with few IEM, but two out of two amp I tried (my Bakoon and a custom Nutube amp) both did not do well with D16 lineout.

I'm not into measurement, and only when I hear inconsistent synergy of a great degree across my various favourite IEM, I pay attention to objective measurement.

Intriguing, would you mind giving a bit more info on what you feel sound wise? I’m intrigued because I would use D16 line out into a Woo WA8.

 

[jamato8]

Intriguing, would you mind giving a bit more info on what you feel sound wise? I’m intrigued because I would use D16 line out into a Woo WA8.

You may end up just using the D16. :^)

 

[audionewbi]

Intriguing, would you mind giving a bit more info on what you feel sound wise? I’m intrigued because I would use D16 line out into a Woo WA8.

If I end up buying D16, I will but honestly I'm in no position to give complete feedback. I should have added that my impressions was based on two one hour session.

 

[purk]

The D16 is very dynamic and natural. On well recorded music, it is like a live performance, IMO.

Fluid and fidelity with neutral presentation. It sounds so clean and transparent and not overly bright.

You may end up just using the D16. :^)

It’s a better buy of the two for me and it takes longer and more money for Ibasso to develop. It’s amp section will embarrass most TOTL dap alone and should compete with mid-price desktop amp.

 

[Loftprojection]

You may end up just using the D16. :^)

This is almost impossible. I'm old and I've been using tube amps since I can remember. I've tried several SS amps though the years, at first listen I sometimes say it sounds not bad but as soon as I go back to one of my tube amps then that's it, the SS is not able to reproduce this nice sound I like so much. D16 is quite interesting to me as a DAC since most of you lucky owners say it is very analog sounding but I have no interest in the amp section, well unless a miracle happens!

 

[Whitigir]

The amp is like the heart and the DAC as an analog source is like the blood. The amp can be powerful and great sounding, but without a good source of blood to keep it pumping, then it wouldn’t be as good as it can be.

What I am trying to say is that The amp is the last of the chain, and shouldn’t be the one that decide everything as a result. The most important piece of your system should always be

1/ the recordings (digital files or LP)
2/ The converters DAC for digital and the Mechanical systems for LP

The amp job is simple, to amplify what taken in and putting out with multiplicative factors

Remember, chicken poops in, no chicken noodles out, even if your amplifier is chef Gordon Ramsey by himself