Ibasso 1 bit Discrete portable DAC with Resistors Array D16

[Z_Showmaster]

I am an electrical engineer by profession and so far the technical limitation of a protocol like USB for asynchronous short range of music digital transmissions that include error correction elude me. Thanks anyway.

Hi @nkanak, my thoughts below.

Everyone on the debate of inputs has a valid point, the technical difficulties of getting great sound over USB on any device, balanced against practical use cases of a portable device.

The important thing is that D16 provides both USB and Coax, as I believe nigh every full-sized trans-portable offers. Choose the one that sounds better to your ears, is compatible with your sources and audio formats, and the differences will quickly fade in your mind as you listen permanently. The D16's USB definitely sounds different to the Coax, but both really sound fantastic.

Why USB on paper promises so much is because there becomes one single master clock in the chain in the ideal isochronous asynchronous manner. But other things like ground potentials and USB's power supply and a very bloated consumer interface in general have stood in its way.

"The Father of USB Audio" Gordon Rankin has spoken candidly on his invention, the initial promise, and then acknowledging all its strengths and flaws. I highly recommend you check out his interviews on Google but here's a start: www.darko.audio/2016/05/gordon-rankin-on-why-usb-audio-quality-varies

USB is great especially because there is a single master of timing. It certainly seems elegant versus the bit, master and word clocks getting mashed together into SPDIF and transmitted over Coax, before being unpacked at the destination: the DAC. The thing about SPDIF is that the transport becomes as important as the DAC itself given the independently operated clock, and ideally are designed by the same company to be used together...

And yet high-end audio companies keep using SPDIF. Chord use dual-BNC SPDIF, dCS dual-AES. The dCS Network Bridge (discontinued) eliminated USB and optical outputs entirely.

Many modern transmissions go the I2S way. What's I2S? The same bit, master, word clocks and data, just not folded up into SPDIF.

What was SPDIF's main problem? Managing a clock? Well I2S only gives you three different clocks to manage...

So let's settle on the most feasible format of digital transmission at our disposal, and listen happily from there

I hesitate to equate "better sound" to any input though I think on the evidence of the listeners here the strong preference is for coax, and their subjective choice is valid for liking that over USB.

I couldn't exclude USB as an input option on mine, as it's the only way I can play high-rate DSD back via D16 (edit: in my personal experience, I find playing back DSD natively via USB sounds better than DOP over Coax. But if others observe otherwise that's totally fine too).

The key challenge with a USB input remains the electrical potential between the source point and the receiver. While separate power supplies can help in decoupling USB's 5V power line, true galvanic isolation only happens when there are separate grounds. That may prove difficult in a portable device with limited space? Given how no optocouplers I know operate fast enough in the kind of form factor that would be required for D16...

Any challenge may also exist in how much of a USB data buffer is stored and maintained before overflowing etc., but you might be able to advise better on such a topic.

In any case, I maintain both the USB and coax inputs on D16 sound different – but to my ears, equal degrees of excellent that may vary with your tastes.

What kind of dap can I connect to cox in D16? Please let me know. I can't connect because the dap I have is hiby

HiBy Music is an excellent app for USB playback so I might just use the bundled USB cable and your HiBy DAP as a source. Otherwise, this could work as other members in this thread have cited – https://store.hiby.com/products/hiby-type-c-to-3-5mm-gold-plating-coaxial-cable

 

[nkanak]

Hi @nkanak, my thoughts below.



I hesitate to equate "better sound" to any input though I think on the evidence of the listeners here the strong preference is for coax, and their subjective choice is valid for liking that over USB.

I couldn't exclude USB as an input option on mine, as it's the only way I can play high-rate DSD back via D16 (edit: in my personal experience, I find playing back DSD natively via USB sounds better than DOP over Coax. But if others observe otherwise that's totally fine too).

The key challenge with a USB input remains the electrical potential between the source point and the receiver. While separate power supplies can help in decoupling USB's 5V power line, true galvanic isolation only happens when there are separate grounds. That may prove difficult in a portable device with limited space? Given how no optocouplers I know operate fast enough in the kind of form factor that would be required for D16...

Any challenge may also exist in how much of a USB data buffer is stored and maintained before overflowing etc., but you might be able to advise better on such a topic.

In any case, I maintain both the USB and coax inputs on D16 sound different – but to my ears, equal degrees of excellent that may vary with your tastes.



HiBy Music is an excellent app for USB playback so I might just use the bundled USB cable and your HiBy DAP as a source. Otherwise, this could work as other members in this thread have cited – https://store.hiby.com/products/hiby-type-c-to-3-5mm-gold-plating-coaxial-cable

The article that you refer to is almost 8 years old. Modern usb receivers like the XMOS series have solved all these problems. There is also very small probability of ground related problems between battery powered devices and a simple usb isolator solves them. Hi end companies use all kind of extreme measures for already solved or anyway inaudible “problems” in order for their marketing departments to be able to present their clients with characteristics that would differentiate their products from the competition. Digital transmission of music streams is a long solved problem.
Keep also in mind that even sub 100USD DAC dongles nowadays include dual oscillators for reclocking the input signal since nowadays the transmission is asynchronous. Anyway everyone can have an opinion of course based on their listening experience. These experiences though ,in my opinion, should not be presented with a “pseudo” engineering authority based on vague references.
One can present a listening experience without trying to be “scientific”

 

[Z_Showmaster]

The article that you refer to is almost 8 years old. Modern usb receivers like the XMOS series have solved all these problems. There is also very small probability of ground related problems between battery powered devices and a simple usb isolator solves them. Hi end companies use all kind of extreme measures for already solved or anyway inaudible “problems” in order for their marketing departments to be able to present their clients with characteristics that would differentiate their products from the competition. Digital transmission of music streams is a long solved problem.
Keep also in mind that even sub 100USD DAC dongles nowadays include dual oscillators for reclocking the input signal since nowadays the transmission is asynchronous. Anyway everyone can have an opinion of course based on their listening experience. These experiences though ,in my opinion, should not be presented with a “pseudo” engineering authority based on vague references.
One can present a listening experience without trying to be “scientific”

Great, I'm sure you'll find the thesis you're looking for on the web.

 

[nkanak]

I am also sure that you will also find a lot of willing people ready to spend in usb cables, digital to digital converters and hi-end coaxial cables. This thread is anyway about promoting products and that is totally fine. That is how the audio industry is doing marketing and things go forward.

Regards

 

[purk]

I am also sure that you will also find a lot of willing people ready to spend in usb cables, digital to digital converters and hi-end coaxial cables. This thread is anyway about promoting products and that is totally fine. That is how the audio industry is doing marketing and things go forward.

Regards

Don’t forget that coaxial cable is able to utilize larger conductors and have much larger contact areas compared to that of the USB cables. This should be better at optimizing the signal transfer. I build many cables whether digital or analog and there are discerning sonic difference to my ears. On the D16, I prefer the coaxial input.

 

[nkanak]

Don’t forget that coaxial cable is able to utilize larger conductors and have much larger contact areas compared to that of the USB cables. This should be better at optimizing the signal transfer. I build many cables whether digital or analog and there are discerning sonic difference to my ears. On the D16, I prefer the coaxial input.

The signal transfer is optimized when the coaxial cable has a resistance of 75 Ohm, not when it is minimized. This is getting way out of context for this thread. Sorry for disturbing the marketing process, my bad.

 

[jamato8]

The signal transfer is optimized when the coaxial cable has a resistance of 75 Ohm, not when it is minimized. This getting way out of context for this thread. Sorry for disturbing the marketing process, my bad.

Do you use a signal generator to make sure it is a 75ohm cable?

 

[Whitigir]

Don’t forget that coaxial cable is able to utilize larger conductors and have much larger contact areas compared to that of the USB cables. This should be better at optimizing the signal transfer. I build many cables whether digital or analog and there are discerning sonic difference to my ears. On the D16, I prefer the coaxial input.

That is very true and I am with you right there

 

[sdcson]

I would say that has to be Ibasso for now, and my suspect is that Dx260 will make a wonderful source for Coax. It has everything you need in a compact package with FPGA 2.0.

When you need nothing else, you would want the player by itself, using 8X DAC chip . Sound like an expensive solution.

I am satisfied with 320M as a coax source, but can’t stop wondering myself if there could be any differences from FPGA 1.0 vs 2.0

Thank you for your answer. I was using dx260 but the system stopped and I refunded it. Eventually, I think I need to connect with Cox with ibass dab to solve the questions

 

[Whitigir]

Thank you for your answer. I was using dx260 but the system stopped and I refunded it. Eventually, I think I need to connect with Cox with ibass dab to solve the questions

On the topic of SPDIF, a signal that travel over Coax cable. Apparently, the sources will play a huge roles and so is the design of the receiving DAC
https://web.archive.org/web/2014060..._high_performance_SPDIF_receiver_Oct_2006.pdf

It mentioned that different sample rate converter will sound different, and also that using any off chip components can potentially introduce distortion and degradation. This was what I tried to say, USB interfaces has an off chip component.

I hope someone with experiences like @purk or @twister6 can provide comparison feedback between 320M vs Dx260 as an SPDIF coax source. Both of these has their own advantages

320M has FPGA 1.0 and dedicated battery
Dx260 has FPGA 2.0 but no dedicated battery

 

[meomap]

So tempted that I just ordered D16...after reading through 14 pages of thread.

So, it will be DX300MAX Ti / D16 / PB5 .
Will exp through 300M Ti / D16 / ALO Studio Six Tube Amp & PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Tube Int Amp later too.....

 

[jamato8]

So tempted that I just ordered D16...after reading through 14 pages of thread.

So, it will be DX300MAX Ti / D16 / PB5 .
Will exp through 300M Ti / D16 / ALO Studio Six Tube Amp & PrimaLuna Dialogue HP Tube Int Amp later too.....

Listening to the setup right now. Santana, Supernatural.. . the bass quality. . chills, the sound. . . wow.

 

[Trance_Gott]

Never heard this album better than this

Now it's time for a better headphone. Try the Composer it smokes your HD800 out of the water!

 

[mblain]

I know this unit is new, but has anyone compared it to a higher level desktop dac? I’m curious if it can replace a Yggy, or Hugo TT.

Especially since there was mention that it was as inspired by the Mola Mola.

 

[Z_Showmaster]

I know this unit is new, but has anyone compared it to a higher level desktop dac? I’m curious if it can replace a Yggy, or Hugo TT.

Especially since there was mention that it was as inspired by the Mola Mola.

Yes, it was inspired by the Tambaqui's architecture. But I can probably guess it'll sound very different to the Yggy (R2R) or a Hugo TT (delta-sigma) – also an assumption based on knowing how those two DACs sound having heard actual units too.

A more natural comparison might come against a Meitner MA3 or a Tambaqui? Perhaps a dCS with its upsampling set to DSD? In real life there is a decent dose of the dCS sound in the D16 with its ambiance, stage and natural detail, but of course something like the Bartók has those in spades more, plus dCS' trademark tonal sturation.