I wish HD-audio albums would hurry up!
Oct 29, 2015 at 11:13 AM Post #76 of 276
  This is the thing - you can continue to downsample further and/or go more lossy and you probably won't be able to tell the difference easily and confidently.  I've failed listening tests all the way down to 4bit, trying to figure which was 8bit lossless, 192k MP3, 16bit wav, etc.
 
This is why MP3 is so successful. Most people "can't tell" or "don't care" with their conscious mind. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  It means our detection and repeatable identification abilities are lacking.
 
If you need to save space downsampling is one way. Lossy is another. These days they are often times both used one after the other to get music to the listener.
 
My whole point is you are only reducing for your enjoyment or convenience. You are knowingly degrading the files whether you think it's perceptible degradation or not. Degradation used to be very necessary to be digital and mobile. Now not so much.
 
My debates online are with people who say hi-res quality doesn't exist or is completely unnecessary, and therefore anyone who claims it's existence are idiots, or worse, scam artists.
 
Instead of "why can't I hear it?" or "Help me experience this" the internet is overrun with "snake oil!" "scam alert!" and "science says its not true" arguments. All bull.
 
This line of thinking is helping to kill music. Look around and listen to what's going on. No one talking, no one dancing, no one happy, constant mp3 trickle into their inner ear. No air, no life, all robot sex. OK not all of us, but you know I'm right. Lossy over compressed fake music is doing no one any good.

 
If you couldn't tell them apart in such tests, how could you (or anyone) tell them apart in normal listening? That's what I'm confused about. Human auditory memory is only a few seconds, after all.
 
Don't get me wrong, anyway. I never compress my own files. I only listen to music at home, own a 12 TB (12,000 GB) external hard drive array, and even use uncompressed formats.
 
  re: listening tests - I'm working on some formats myself, and have been reading up on other testing styles in use. There are a couple that have been published. This testing of people is not my field so i'm digesting their nomenclature, methods, and lessons learned in hopes of publishing mine some day.
 
Here's an overview of the one I'm cooking up:
New Listening Test – A Proposal | WFNK.COM
 
I was also thrilled to learn that Ayre audio, the hotshots that make $15k DAC/amp combos (and also the ponoplayer) have their own listening test model and rely on it almost exclusively to build their products. Their test is a much more involved listening session in open air with more than a snippet, actually more than a full song, before switching to a second sample. Their engineers are told to always go with the better sounding circuit regardless of what the specs show.
 
The proof of this model working is in their products, universally lauded for their pure and engaging sound quality. They ship audio products with very few dials, switches, or specs. The work has already been done to ensure it sounds good and customers trust the process of listening to every component.

 
Ah, yes, I remember this listening test idea of yours. But how would it go about proving anything objectively? To me, it seems like it introduces far too many variables instead of testing only one variable.
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 9:58 AM Post #77 of 276
   
If you couldn't tell them apart in such tests, how could you (or anyone) tell them apart in normal listening? That's what I'm confused about. Human auditory memory is only a few seconds, after all.
 
Don't get me wrong, anyway. I never compress my own files. I only listen to music at home, own a 12 TB (12,000 GB) external hard drive array, and even use uncompressed formats.
 
 
Ah, yes, I remember this listening test idea of yours. But how would it go about proving anything objectively? To me, it seems like it introduces far too many variables instead of testing only one variable.


Good question. This gets into the differences between actually hearing a sound and remembering a sound. These are two very different processes.
 

A) Hearing -
 
Our entire body picks up vibrations through thousands of hair follicles, the touch of other vibrating items, and specially designed nerves inside our joints to detect a wide range of vibration wavelengths. Our chest reacts to pressure changes. All of these signals are sent by our nervous system to our brains - the auditory cortex to be exact - located near the center and wrapped around the thalamus (the brain's home for emotion and pain). 
 
Meanwhile our outer ears collect and amplify sound waves into our middle ear, where the eardrum and ossicles bones again amplify (and perhaps attenuate) the sound and send it into the inner ear.
 
The inner ear is a magnificent place: the sound travels down a long spiral-shaped cochlea into the organ of corti, where thousands of microscopic hairs in triangle-wedge-shaped clusters react to the sound waves. Above these hairs hangs a suspended pool of liquid which appears to compress/limit and even expand the sound quality in real time! There is very little known about how this liquid moves, works, or where it comes from, but researchers believe it is able to localize a hair cluster and form over it, either thickening or thinning itself and effecting the sound reception of the hairs below. Basically a real-time fluid-based EQ and compressor/limiter, of which we have no electrical or digital equivalent.
 
At this point the brain combines the sound signals from both ears with the vibration and pressure signals from the rest of the body, works out timing differences for spatial awareness, and you are "hearing". 
 
If you do this whole thing in headphones, you can remove the body and the outer ear and start the process from the middle ear, as the little headphone speakers inject tiny vibrations into our ear. But the rest is the same. Sound comes down the cochlea and is processed by the auditory cortex, mainlining into the emotional center of your brain.

 
B) Remembering Sound -
 
Memory of sound doesn't just come from other areas of the brain, it bypasses the auditory cortex completely. The memory of a sound, much like a taste or smell, is stored far away from the original detection mechanism. A memory does not need to be detected by the senses again and it cannot be studied in real-time. Your nose doesn't remember smells, your eyes don't remember sites, your ears don't remember sound. 
 
It is a snapshot stored into memory as a reaction only because it does not contain vibration or sound, only the memory of your reaction to it.  You cannot recall the actual sound from memory, you can recall your reaction to it, and you can use your imagination to attempt to re-construct it, but it is not sound, vibration, or data as we know it, it's human memory, something infinitely difficult to quantify.

 
 
See the differences?  Two totally different processes, mentally, this hearing and remembering.
 
BUT you can still compare sound to memory with some accuracy. It's true. It's just not easy or obvious. Accuracy is very low which is why I hate ABX tests - they ultimately conclude that no one can hear anything of detail and we know that is false. All signs point to the test being fatally flawed. Hence ABX is only used to shoot down quality, not to improve it, and only seems to be referenced by so-called objectionists trying to show something doesn't exist. Perfect test for that, it can't show that anything does indeed exist.

 
How can you improve your accuracy? Become a better listener and educate yourself about sound. Play with an EQ, parametric if possible, and learn the frequencies. Learn how to visualize sound in the soundscape - where are the instruments, how far away, how big is the room they were recorded in. Learn about fundamental frequencies and harmonics. Learn your room, the acoustic properties of it, so you can better put into context what is coming out of the speakers in that room.  Pay attention to delays, reverb trails, and instrument timbre. Learn the tells of low-resolution:  crunchy cymbals, undefined high-hat, no air or breath in voice (you can't 'hear' when the singer smiles), lots of up-front compression and hyper-movement. Those types of things.
 
 
Even producers/mixers compare back and forth all the time. When you are just checking presets or twisting a knob to hear what you like best this is not an ABX test. It's not a test at all, it's just a choice. No one else cares what you pick ,you won't be graded on it. So you can switch through things and compare from memory. Again, no one is grading you, you are just picking something, there is no wrong answer. 
 
Forming a test with a right and wrong answer is not the way to go about it. Our auditory cortex does not work this way, we cannot compare and contrast two sound items accurately. We have to compare the live sound item with the memory, or two memories.
 
If you want statistical mush (to keep status quo) you use ABX tests. If you want to actually detect a difference you need to invest more time and change the test format.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 9:14 AM Post #80 of 276
  ...But when there is an obvious difference, it's easy to pass an ABX test. If you can't pass it, it means you couldn't distinguish between the two samples, period.

 
but it's not easy to "pass" an ABX test, not even an "obvious difference" one.  i've failed them using all sorts of different formats because of reasons i've clearly explained above.  
 
you might not be able to distinguish between two samples but this is no way means they are the same.  it means your method for determination is failing.
 
if you refuse to accept the failure of ABX listening tests to determine sound quality then we are at an impasse. because I beleive your bad test will continue to show you there is no such thing as quality unless it's so obvious that it smacks you across the face.
 
if you can't distinguish between sugar and nutrasweet, does sugar = nutrasweet?  no it does not.
if you can't distinguish between dog crap and mashed potatoes, does dog crap become as good as mashed potatoes for everyone else? no it assuredly does not.
 
the ear-brain is easy to trick with convoluted test procedures that compare sound to memory. it fails far less in actual use.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 9:18 AM Post #81 of 276
  Reading this exchange, the irresistible force paradox springs to mind...


perhaps, but my force is backed by 30+ years of studio experience and learning digital audio principles IN THE 1980's.  Way back then we learned that 16/44 was "good enough for casual listening" but not for scientific use or critical listening.
 
somehow that fact has been lost by the MP3 generation. i think they can't stand to imagine that their MP3 world was not just lossy, but lossy on lossy, and that their dad and probably even grandpa had better audio quality then they do in the modern world.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 10:30 AM Post #82 of 276
 
perhaps, but my force is backed by 30+ years of studio experience and learning digital audio principles IN THE 1980's.  Way back then we learned that 16/44 was "good enough for casual listening" but not for scientific use or critical listening.
 
somehow that fact has been lost by the MP3 generation. i think they can't stand to imagine that their MP3 world was not just lossy, but lossy on lossy, and that their dad and probably even grandpa had better audio quality then they do in the modern world.

 
I'm curious as to who you mean by the mp3 generation - what age group? I was around quite some time before the inception of the mp3 codec in the mid-Nineties, but have been using the format since then, along with a variety of hard media formats. Perceptual coding hasn't stood still for 20 years... yes, mp3, AAC etc. are lossy formats, but designed for audible transparency and surely that's what really matters. It works because our brain always plays join-the-dots, and performs filtering - not just with audio but all forms of information processing; linguistic, audio, visual - a superfluity of information is just redundancy.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 2:35 PM Post #83 of 276
   
I'm curious as to who you mean by the mp3 generation - what age group? I was around quite some time before the inception of the mp3 codec in the mid-Nineties, but have been using the format since then, along with a variety of hard media formats. Perceptual coding hasn't stood still for 20 years... yes, mp3, AAC etc. are lossy formats, but designed for audible transparency and surely that's what really matters. It works because our brain always plays join-the-dots, and performs filtering - not just with audio but all forms of information processing; linguistic, audio, visual - a superfluity of information is just redundancy.

 
Not to mention the fact that not all music needs 16 bits or 22kHz bandwidth at every single second, or at all. Lossy codecs take this fact and combine it with tested thresholds of detection for hearing.
 
I really don't get all the animosity toward ABX either. If I titrate up the bitrate of a lossy codec, there will come a point where I can't pass the test, usually up to near where people say the codec is transparent, and depending on the material. Playing with bit depth, I'll start to fail when the number of bits can finally support the dynamism of the song, and with sample rate I'll fail when the rate gets up to near 2x the max frequency I can hear at any reasonable volume in my listening room.
 
This is all quite coherent and works how you would expect it to. Thus when I reach this point of transparency I think "well, now I'm failing the test", rather than "well, now the test is failing me." If anything is the mp3 generation, it's taking that latter point of view of blaming the test when you fail it.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 3:09 PM Post #84 of 276
   
I'm curious as to who you mean by the mp3 generation - what age group? I was around quite some time before the inception of the mp3 codec in the mid-Nineties, but have been using the format since then, along with a variety of hard media formats. Perceptual coding hasn't stood still for 20 years... yes, mp3, AAC etc. are lossy formats, but designed for audible transparency and surely that's what really matters. It works because our brain always plays join-the-dots, and performs filtering - not just with audio but all forms of information processing; linguistic, audio, visual - a superfluity of information is just redundancy.


"Transparency" is the key here. What is it? I see it defined as a goal of lossy codecs, and it is achieved when one can't pick it out of a ABX test.
 
But I don't want "transparency".  I want the whole file. I don't need "transparency" when it's lossy. If there's loss, I want to know.
 
The skill at hiding data loss is not of interest to me b/c I don't want any data loss in the first place.
 
I propose that the transparency you speak of is actually terribly damaging to the file because it is forcing the brain to "connect the dots", as you put it, without knowing it. The listener must work to fill in the loss, ignore the artifacts and hope for a wider dynamic range. Listening fatigue is increased and happiness is decreased.
 
Lossy audio is fake protein, and it's dangerous to us.
 
 
Yes I'm being dramatic because I believe that music = brain food. I took a serious turn a couple years back because I was pushing a wellness through music situation and was using 192k MP3 to stream it. Total disaster. No one felt better, no one enjoyed it, and the obvious reason was how horribly the playback represented what the original production held.
 
This is why classical music as AAC/mp3 is still a non-starter, no matter how good the codecs get.
 
Why this desire to be lossy and not know it?  Wouldn't you rather have the full thing and not worry about if they've tricked you or not?
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 3:19 PM Post #85 of 276
   
I'm curious as to who you mean by the mp3 generation - what age group? I was around quite some time before the inception of the mp3 codec in the mid-Nineties, but have been using the format since then, along with a variety of hard media formats. Perceptual coding hasn't stood still for 20 years... yes, mp3, AAC etc. are lossy formats, but designed for audible transparency and surely that's what really matters. It works because our brain always plays join-the-dots, and performs filtering - not just with audio but all forms of information processing; linguistic, audio, visual - a superfluity of information is just redundancy.


I consider anyone in "the MP3 generation" if they even consider it to be the same as CD.  If they aren't obviously bothered by the degrade in quality, or the concept of "lossy", then they've accepted it as "good enough" and they are in that generation. They can be any age. I think I was in that generation, teetering on the brink, until about 2010.
 
This excludes casual listeners that don't think about this stuff, just buy what everyone else has. I'm talking about the ones that claim to care about their music playback.
 
Yes lossy codecs were necessary for many years.
Yes they have gotten better, aka more transparent.
 
Yet they are no longer necessary for stereo PCM music unless there's data cap issues. Remember, netflix pushes 4000k-8000k per stream into people's devices, that's enough bandwidth for 4-10 individual CD-quality streams.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 3:33 PM Post #86 of 276
   
Not to mention the fact that not all music needs 16 bits or 22kHz bandwidth at every single second, or at all. Lossy codecs take this fact and combine it with tested thresholds of detection for hearing.
 
I really don't get all the animosity toward ABX either. If I titrate up the bitrate of a lossy codec, there will come a point where I can't pass the test, usually up to near where people say the codec is transparent, and depending on the material. Playing with bit depth, I'll start to fail when the number of bits can finally support the dynamism of the song, and with sample rate I'll fail when the rate gets up to near 2x the max frequency I can hear at any reasonable volume in my listening room.
 
This is all quite coherent and works how you would expect it to. Thus when I reach this point of transparency I think "well, now I'm failing the test", rather than "well, now the test is failing me." If anything is the mp3 generation, it's taking that latter point of view of blaming the test when you fail it.


RRod I totally agree with you, imagine that :)  Lossy codecs do amazing things but it's still LOSS. Dress it up however you want, it's only needed if you have a bandwidth crunch.
 
If you don't (most of us don't in 2015), then lossless is the way to go. If you believe the term lossless, they might be 24bit or whatever are the highest quality masters you can get. 
 
My animosity towards ABX is based on the religious defense of it being the true god of fact. It's so easy to dissect what is wrong with that format but that immediately gets you thrown into an anti-science camp, which is ridiculous. It's like a trap - everyone knows it's a horrible test and doesn't actually work as intended but discussing such a thing gets you removed from the group.
 
The idea that we all sit on the internet trying to get everyone else to take hearing tests is ridiculous on face value. I mix music and I listen to all sorts of different formats and resolutions, I don't need to play parlor games with internet jockeys. I'm sure some of you enjoy music that I'd find useless and tasteless, and probably vice versa. So much of these debates are proxy for content arguments. 
 
 
People try to put audio into a petrie dish, try to isolate things for testing. But it's always about an entire circuit or playback chain.
 
Bandwidth hits us in several places throughout the playback chain:
 
1 - source file - how much data is there to store/receive?
2 - playback/digital render - can the DAC render the entire program or is it downsampling?
3 - playback/analog render - can the amp render the entire program within physical limits?
4 - playback/transducer - can the speakers render the entire program?
 
People playing 24bit files from their phone with earbuds aren't hearing what people using a modern DAP and decent speakers are hearing. 
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 7:00 PM Post #88 of 276
  I agree that if hard drive space isn't an issue, then just use lossless.

 
For some it may still be an issue. My own digital music library is roughly 200gb; if I were to have an entirely lossless library, I would need at least 2tb. Not such a big deal in terms of storage (except on DAPs), but a major hassle to have to re-rip / re-source all of those files. Then again, I guess I'm behind the times in even having a local media library... I guess most people are streaming their music to every device these days.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 7:04 PM Post #89 of 276
  For some it may still be an issue. My own digital music library is roughly 200gb; if I were to have an entirely lossless library, I would need at least 2tb. Not such a big deal in terms of storage (except on DAPs), but a major hassle to have to re-rip / re-source all of those files. Then again, I guess I'm behind the times in even having a local media library... I guess most people are streaming their music to every device these days.

 
Yeah, my music library is actually 2 TB. Hard drive space is dirt cheap nowadays. (Although mine was very expensive.) I think the best strategy is to always rip to lossless, then make lossy copies if you need to fit more music onto a portable device. Personally, I don't stream music at all.
 
Nov 2, 2015 at 7:23 PM Post #90 of 276
   
Yeah, my music library is actually 2 TB. Hard drive space is dirt cheap nowadays. (Although mine was very expensive.) I think the best strategy is to always rip to lossless, then make lossy copies if you need to fit more music onto a portable device. Personally, I don't stream music at all.

 
Not to suggest you lack the courage of your convictions, but if you're so adamant that it's impossible to ABX between 256 AAC/320 MP3 and FLAC (and I agree with you on that point by the way; it is), it puzzles me slightly why you bother with lossless rips at all. It seems as though you have some nagging doubt at the back of your mind that you might be missing out on something 
wink.gif
 I can sort of see the argument for 'space is cheap, so why not', but then making additional lossy copies for the DAP again seems like a hassle.
 

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