I wish HD-audio albums would hurry up!
Oct 20, 2015 at 1:38 AM Post #31 of 276
   
Studios use 24-bit (and higher) resolution for computer processing capabilities when producing music. It (arguably) has benefits in that respect, but zero benefits in terms of simple audio playback. As I have clearly explained, 24-bit yields no extra frequencies or dynamic range that is audible to human ears. All the frequencies and dynamic range that you can ever hear are already covered with lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz files. I also offered to prove this to you by showing you how to conduct a proper listening test, so you can hear with your own ears that the two resolutions sound exactly the same when you isolate the variables to ensure that you are not merely listening to two different masters of a recording. There is no doubt that hi-res files can be closer to the original in terms of data, but this is irrelevant because the differences are inaudible. Same goes for 256 kbps AAC. No one has ever been able to pass a proper test between 256 kbps AAC and lossless, because lossy audio of sufficiently high bit rate is audibly transparent. Human ears can't tell the difference, and that's all that matters.


You see here we go again. That, quote,
"Studios use 24-bit (and higher) resolution for computer processing capabilities when producing music.",
doesn't even make sense. It comes across as you making something up to counter my position that studios record in high res.
 
Neither have you explained why higher res audio doesn't work, as you claimed here. You simply stated that it doesn't, and told me anything I said was irrelevant.  Only highlighting your lack of understanding on the science. The link you supplied in favour of your position was full of science garbage.
 
As far as offering to prove it, I ask you one thing. If you discover you are wrong, will you have the steel to admit it. I would. I have already questioned my own logic in my last post. Yet you seem to be concocting ideas that have no reality in science.
 
With reference to not being able to detect 256kbps, I have to question completely. I buy CDs on Amazon, and they often give us free AutoRip MP3 copies. I listen to those before the CDs arrive in the post. They vary in MP3 quality. I know for a fact I can hear 220kbps vs CD quality a mile off. My latest buy is anything between 261kbps and 300kbps and I can hear the lower quality MP3 vs CD.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 2:06 AM Post #32 of 276
  You see here we go again. That, quote,
"Studios use 24-bit (and higher) resolution for computer processing capabilities when producing music.",
doesn't even make sense. It comes across as you making something up to counter my position that studios record in high res.
 
Neither have you explained why higher res audio doesn't work, as you claimed here. You simply stated that it doesn't, and told me anything I said was irrelevant.  Only highlighting your lack of understanding on the science. The link you supplied in favour of your position was full of science garbage.
 
As far as offering to prove it, I ask you one thing. If you discover you are wrong, will you have the steel to admit it. I would. I have already questioned my own logic in my last post. Yet you seem to be concocting ideas that have no reality in science.
 
With reference to not being able to detect 256kbps, I have to question completely. I buy CDs on Amazon, and they often give us free AutoRip MP3 copies. I listen to those before the CDs arrive in the post. They vary in MP3 quality. I know for a fact I can hear 220kbps vs CD quality a mile off. My latest buy is anything between 261kbps and 300kbps and I can hear the lower quality MP3 vs CD.

 
Everything you are saying is based on misunderstanding the facts. Allow me to elaborate. When I talk about studios using hi-res audio, this is for the purpose of editing music (which requires processing power), not playback. I did explain, repeatedly, why it has no benefit for playback. You cannot hear frequencies above roughly 20 kHz. 44.1 kHz files are designed to play all the frequencies we can hear. Any frequencies above that are inaudible. 16-bit is more than adequate to handle all the dynamic range in any recording. 24-bit just adds more dynamic range, but there's nothing extra to hear, since 16-bit is more than adequate. All of this information has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not making anything up. If I reliably heard a difference between Red Book and hi-res in an ABX test under controlled conditions, I would happily admit it. But the simple fact is, no one has ever done so. Whenever someone thought they heard a difference, this was proven wrong by objective controlled listening tests. I said 256 kbps AAC is audibly transparent, not 220 kbps MP3. And at any rate, you have to convert the files yourself to ensure the variables are isolated and it is a proper comparison. That means taking the lossless file, then converting to the second format/resolution. Any number of things could have been done to the files otherwise. Sometimes, a digital download is derived from a different master of the recording than the CD, for example. The only thing that has any relevance in this discussion is whether you can hear a real (not merely perceived) difference. So back to the matter at hand... 1.) Have you perceived a difference between a lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz file and a 24-bit file? 2.) Did you convert the 24-bit file to lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz before comparing? 3.) Did you conduct an objective ABX test to document your results as to your ability (or inability) to distinguish between the two?
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 2:53 AM Post #33 of 276
   
Everything you are saying is based on misunderstanding the facts. Allow me to elaborate. When I talk about studios using hi-res audio, this is for the purpose of editing music (which requires processing power), not playback. I did explain, repeatedly, why it has no benefit for playback. You cannot hear frequencies above roughly 20 kHz. 44.1 kHz files are designed to play all the frequencies we can hear. Any frequencies above that are inaudible. 16-bit is more than adequate to handle all the dynamic range in any recording. 24-bit just adds more dynamic range, but there's nothing extra to hear, since 16-bit is more than adequate. All of this information has been scientifically proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm not making anything up. If I reliably heard a difference between Red Book and hi-res in an ABX test under controlled conditions, I would happily admit it. But the simple fact is, no one has ever done so. Whenever someone thought they heard a difference, this was proven wrong by objective controlled listening tests. I said 256 kbps AAC is audibly transparent, not 220 kbps MP3. And at any rate, you have to convert the files yourself to ensure the variables are isolated and it is a proper comparison. That means taking the lossless file, then converting to the second format/resolution. Any number of things could have been done to the files otherwise. Sometimes, a digital download is derived from a different master of the recording than the CD, for example. The only thing that has any relevance in this discussion is whether you can hear a real (not merely perceived) difference. So back to the matter at hand... 1.) Have you perceived a difference between a lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz file and a 24-bit file? 2.) Did you convert the 24-bit file to lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz before comparing? 3.) Did you conduct an objective ABX test to document your results as to your ability (or inability) to distinguish between the two?


Sorry but that makes no sense. If 16bit 44.1KHz was enough to capture all data, they would edit with it. There would never even be higher res audio.
 
Why did you pick out my example of 220kbps vs CD, and not 300kbps vs CD, to argue for 256kbps AAC. I hear 300kbps as inferior to CD, did you not read that. There is no way 256kbps is blind test non differential from CD quality. However some scales down better than others. It depends on the recording quality and the sounds used. 
 
What's the point? If I present the argument, you diss it, potentially misinforming others.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 2:59 AM Post #34 of 276
  Sorry but that makes no sense. If 16bit 44.1KHz was enough to capture all data, they would edit with it. There would never even be higher res audio.
 
Why did you pick out my example of 220kbps vs CD, and not 300kbps vs CD, to argue for 256kbps AAC. I hear 300kbps as inferior to CD, did you not read that. There is no way 256kbps is blind test non differential from CD quality. However some scales down better than others. It depends on the recording quality and the sounds used. 
 
What's the point? If I present the argument, you diss it, potentially misinforming others.

 
It's not about capturing data; it's about computer processing when editing audio. And according to some, hi-res is not even necessary for that.
 
Again, I said AAC, not MP3. 256 kbps AAC sounds exactly the same as lossless. If you want to back up your claims that they sound different, then prove that you can hear a difference between 256 kbps AAC and lossless, and also lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz and 24-bit...under controlled conditions. Until you present that proof, you are just making subjective claims.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 3:23 AM Post #35 of 276
   
It's not about capturing data; it's about computer processing when editing audio. And according to some, hi-res is not even necessary for that.
 
Again, I said AAC, not MP3. 256 kbps AAC sounds exactly the same as lossless. If you want to back up your claims that they sound different, then prove that you can hear a difference between 256 kbps AAC and lossless, and also lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz and 24-bit...under controlled conditions. Until you present that proof, you are just making subjective claims.


Where do I start?
 
I will re-phrase. However I do it knowing I will be checking my email alter to see I have been told I know nothing.
 
Re-phrased. If 16bit 44.1KHz contained all data, they would edit with it. There would be no high res audio.
 
You don't need special computer processing to manage and edit audio. It's all standard kit and high res files.
 
I don't read anything that says AAC 256kbps is better than 300kbps MP3.
 
Yet you are claiming AAC is equal to lossless.
Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) is an audio coding standard for lossy digital audio compression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding
 
If AAC was lossless equivalent, no-one would use lossless FLAC, or MP3, so your argument is sunk.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 3:37 AM Post #36 of 276
I don't read anything that says AAC 256kbps is better than 300kbps MP3.  
Yet you are claiming AAC is equal to lossless.
Advanced Audio Coding (AAC) is an audio coding standard for lossy digital audio compression. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding
 
If AAC was lossless equivalent, no-one would use lossless FLAC, or MP3, so your argument is sunk.

 
The data is lossy, but it sounds the same as lossless. Don't take my word for it; just convert the files yourself and listen like I've been telling you all along. I even offered to help you do all this, if you need help in the process. Also, you did not answer my questions from before:
 
1.) Have you perceived a difference between a lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz file and a 24-bit file? 2.) Did you convert the 24-bit file to lossless 16-bit / 44.1 kHz before comparing? 3.) Did you conduct an objective ABX test to document your results as to your ability (or inability) to distinguish between the two?

 
All these steps are absolutely mandatory in order to do a proper comparison.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 7:52 AM Post #37 of 276
So lets say you are playing back a 20 Khz signal that most you probably can't hear anyway. Since the number of samples on a Redbook CD is around 2 for one cycle of the signal, the resulting waveform is misshapen. So a person that does not understand will think that this doesn't work well for sound reproduction and that person is incorrect. The 20 KHz signal is properly reproduced, however, the mishappen signal produces harmonics. Well the next (2nd) harmonic will be at 40 KHz which is definitely way above a human's hearing capabilities so it has no meaning in context of audio reproduction for human beings. To quote Harry Callahan (Dirty Harry), "A man's got to know his limitations." Sorry to the ladies out there, Harry wasn't very PC
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 9:14 AM Post #38 of 276
  So lets say you are playing back a 20 Khz signal that most you probably can't hear anyway. Since the number of samples on a Redbook CD is around 2 for one cycle of the signal, the resulting waveform is misshapen. So a person that does not understand will think that this doesn't work well for sound reproduction and that person is incorrect. The 20 KHz signal is properly reproduced, however, the mishappen signal produces harmonics. Well the next (2nd) harmonic will be at 40 KHz which is definitely way above a human's hearing capabilities so it has no meaning in context of audio reproduction for human beings. To quote Harry Callahan (Dirty Harry), "A man's got to know his limitations." Sorry to the ladies out there, Harry wasn't very PC


The fact that you have asked this means you understand the principle of digital-to-analogue, and vice versa. It's what my thread is based around. 
 
It's what I was explaining in post 4. I included a picture of a signal there which was for a much lower frequency sound than 20KHz. I explained though that as you go up the frequency scale you get less samples per cycle. Until almost two per cycle as you said. (No need to worry about harmonics at this point, but bear with because I will get to that.)
 
I think at higher frequencies the low number of samples fails to determine the amplitude of the signal. Or as you say misshappen. E.g. if the two samples happen to fall at the very start and mid point of the sample. Then sampler will miss the amplitude of the signal. It will still determine the frequency by knowing how many sample points were active where over time. If there were lots above and below zero amplitude it knows the frequency is low etc (like in picture in post 4).  
 
However the answer to what happens is this. There is little fundamental frequency stuff going on at high frequencies like 20KHz. Most of it is harmonics of lower frequency sounds. Harmonics being what determines the difference between one sound at a given frequency and another sound at that same frequency. Harmonics being overtones of the base frequency at intervals of octaves about the base frequency. It's the differing amplitude of these overtones which tells us what the sound is. E.g. a piano playing 440Hz sounds different to a trombone playing 440Hz. It's because the instruments have different levels of amplitude at different harmonics.
 
Whether data is lost by missing these upper harmonics another debate.
 
The issue with 44.1KHz sampling is, how much amplitude data is lost and where.  You example of frequency half of sample rate, can be extended to quarter frequency of sample rate. A 11.025KHz sound only has all amplitude data taken if the samples fall at the right places. Meaning the start, quarter point, half point, and three quarter point, of the cycle. Outside of this and digital to analogue conversion makes the peaks and troughs, i.e. amplitude, misshapen.
 
This is crucial. Once you start loosing small amounts from the original signal, you start to loose the original sound. It's not a massive amount of loss, some could argue, while others argue the opposite. However once you sample in higher frequencies, you rule out the issue.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 11:10 AM Post #39 of 276
Some useful reading for the OP on the basics:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 3:04 PM Post #40 of 276
I did the basic search for 'hd audio vs cd'. I ahve read both the first two links before.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/aug/21/mp3-cd-24-bit-audio-music-hi-res
 
http://www.whathifi.com/news/high-resolution-audio-everything-you-need-to-know
 
In fact I own a copy of the What Hi-Fi mag that their article was prinited in. The general idea in these threads is that HD-audio gives greater detail and texture. That make sense from the theory as far as I understand.
 
 
 
Quote:
Some useful reading for the OP on the basics:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist–Shannon_sampling_theorem


Nice paper, but I am not exactly sure why you included it specifically for me, other than I like it.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 3:33 PM Post #41 of 276

 
Notice that none of those sources actually converted the 24-bit files to 16-bit. They were not comparing two resolutions; they were comparing two different masters, in which case of course it sounds different. If you followed my instructions instead of ignoring them, you could plainly hear for yourself that there is no audible difference.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 4:20 PM Post #42 of 276
Anyway I went off on the obligatory search again for somewhere to buy HD-audio. HDTracks being the first port of call. I was looking for U2 - Achtung Baby. No U2 listed. They did have some Hawkwind and 96KHz of Doremi Fasol Latido. Great album.
 
However as I might have mentioned before I am sceptical of 96KHz music. Reason being that they say in most cases it's 44.1KHz music upsampled.
 
Anyway I searched on other sites failed to mention the sampling rate. Another site had Achtung Baby but it was CD quality.
 
It appears a website that sells 192KHz of relevant music, and not just eclectic stuff, doesn't exist. Even a reliable source of 96KHz would be nice to try.
 
Oct 20, 2015 at 4:26 PM Post #43 of 276
  Anyway I went off on the obligatory search again for somewhere to buy HD-audio. HDTracks being the first port of call. I was looking for U2 - Achtung Baby. No U2 listed. They did have some Hawkwind and 96KHz of Doremi Fasol Latido. Great album.
 
However as I might have mentioned before I am sceptical of 96KHz music. Reason being that they say in most cases it's 44.1KHz music upsampled.
 
Anyway I searched on other sites failed to mention the sampling rate. Another site had Achtung Baby but it was CD quality.
 
It appears a website that sells 192KHz of relevant music, and not just eclectic stuff, doesn't exist. Even a reliable source of 96KHz would be nice to try.

 
http://www.hdtracks.com/achtung-baby
http://www.hdtracks.com/achtung-baby-deluxe-edition
 
biggrin.gif

 
Yes, some hi-res downloads are merely upsampled from 44.1 kHz, but I wouldn't say most of them are.
 
In some cases, 192 kHz can actually create audible distortion. Info on that first link I gave ya.
 
Here's a free hi-res sampler: http://www.hdtracks.com/free-highres-sample/
 
And here are lots of free hi-res downloads: https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/free-hi-res-music/
 

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