[Dark-Colonel]

Quick background - I recently upgraded from my Sennheiser HD 598s to the Sennheiser/Massdrop HD 6XX.

My reaction/feelings are mixed - but I think I know why, bear with me.

For the longest time, I was driving my HD 598s with my Sound Blaster Zs. They sounded absolutely fantastic together, super loud, very punchy and clear and etc, if it wasn't for my stupid large head and how they would get uncomfortable after 1-2 hours, I'd still be using them today. I always could only listen to them at around 20-30 volume in Windows because they would get too loud anything above that. For this reason I never looked into getting a DAC/AMP combo because I was more than happy with the performance of my SBZ.

After much research I felt like I could put on my big boy pants and get the 6XX/650s.

It took like 2 months but I just recently got them! In a very excited fashion I swapped them out and start listening and... well... I'm disappointed.

I'm pretty sure they can sound great but I just can't seem to get them there with the SBZ. I have to crank them all the way up to 80-90 to get close to a full body listening experience with them but even then, it just sounds quite... meh. I understand that the 6XX/650s are supposed to be "warmer" and more neutral but from my research, I was still expecting a great listening experience.

Worry not for I'm not giving up!

So it looks like I now have to get a DAC/AMP. After doing much more research it appears that my best bet is to get the Schiit Stack that includes the Modi & Magni. Apparently this is a great DAC/AMP combo for $200 USD. I don't want to spend more than this.

One part I'm confused about - you see I also have the Logitech Z-5500 which I use occasionally - I still need to use the SBZ to power the Z-5500s because they use the 3 plug (Green, Black, Orange) cables.

So does that mean that I will keep the Z-5500s plugged into the SBZ as is (with the 3 cables), but instead of plugging the HD 6XX into the headphone jack of my SBZ, I will instead be plugging an optical cable from the SBZ to the Schiit Modi and then that into the Magni (with the R/L cables) which I will be plugging my HD 6XXs into?

I just want to make sure that I got this right and that I can go ahead and buy the Schiit Stack, thanks for taking the time to read my hopefully not so stupid post!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm pretty sure they can sound great but I just can't seem to get them there with the SBZ. I have to crank them all the way up to 80-90 to get close to a full body listening experience with them but even then, it just sounds quite... meh. I understand that the 6XX/650s are supposed to be "warmer" and more neutral but from my research, I was still expecting a great listening experience.

That could be from a number of factors together.

First off the higher impendance and lower sensitivity of the 6XX/650 means that amp circuit has to work harder to drive it.

Second, the frequency response is a little bit flatter than the upper bass bump on the HD598.

Third, the low impedance of the HD598 with the high output impedance (30ohms I think) of the SBZ is likely exacerbating that bass bump, making it louder and possibly wider, in short it sounds warmer overall in addition to a more audible "thump" and you may not notice the downsides of such an effect unless you're listening to a song with very articulate bass string plucking or very fast bass drum double pedal work with the individual notes blending into each other already.

So it looks like I now have to get a DAC/AMP. After doing much more research it appears that my best bet is to get the Schiit Stack that includes the Modi & Magni. Apparently this is a great DAC/AMP combo for $200 USD. I don't want to spend more than this.

That can address only the first of the problems above. Not that the soundcard totally isn't struggling to drive the HD6XX and the lower effort that the Magni3 will exert will make zero difference, but that might not be the bulk of your problems there.

And in fact it may exacerbate all the others. The very low output impedance of the Magni will mean there will be even less of that EQ effect on all your headphones, so the HD598 will not get that low range boost that the soundcard's lower damping factor is giving it, and the HD6XX will be running even closer to what its measurements are like. Objectively, yes, it will be a large improvement, but subjectively, it may even be detrimental for your preferences if you prefer the HD598 distorting due to the low damping factor with the SBZ.

Not optimal, sure, but too many people already come back here ranting about how objectively better gear sounds subjectively much worse.

One part I'm confused about - you see I also have the Logitech Z-5500 which I use occasionally - I still need to use the SBZ to power the Z-5500s because they use the 3 plug (Green, Black, Orange) cables.

You're not "powering" the Z-5500 using the SBZ. You're not using a speaker amp on the SBZ to drive those. The Z-5500 has its own speaker amplifiers for the subwoofer and satellites. The SBZ is just feeding it a line signal that its amp channels will work with to get sound out of the speakers.

So does that mean that I will keep the Z-5500s plugged into the SBZ as is (with the 3 cables), but instead of plugging the HD 6XX into the headphone jack of my SBZ, I will instead be plugging an optical cable from the SBZ to the Schiit Modi and then that into the Magni (with the R/L cables) which I will be plugging my HD 6XXs into?

That's how it will have to work, but now you'll have to go into the software to switch between outputs on the soundcard, ie SPDIF optical and analogue outputs.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Quick background - I recently upgraded from my Sennheiser HD 598s to the Sennheiser/Massdrop HD 6XX.
My reaction/feelings are mixed - but I think I know why, bear with me.
For the longest time, I was driving my HD 598s with my Sound Blaster Zs. They sounded absolutely fantastic together, super loud, very punchy and clear and etc, if it wasn't for my stupid large head and how they would get uncomfortable after 1-2 hours, I'd still be using them today. I always could only listen to them at around 20-30 volume in Windows because they would get too loud anything above that. For this reason I never looked into getting a DAC/AMP combo because I was more than happy with the performance of my SBZ.
After much research I felt like I could put on my big boy pants and get the 6XX/650s.
It took like 2 months but I just recently got them! In a very excited fashion I swapped them out and start listening and... well... I'm disappointed.
I'm pretty sure they can sound great but I just can't seem to get them there with the SBZ. I have to crank them all the way up to 80-90 to get close to a full body listening experience with them but even then, it just sounds quite... meh. I understand that the 6XX/650s are supposed to be "warmer" and more neutral but from my research, I was still expecting a great listening experience.
Worry not for I'm not giving up!
So it looks like I now have to get a DAC/AMP. After doing much more research it appears that my best bet is to get the Schiit Stack that includes the Modi & Magni. Apparently this is a great DAC/AMP combo for $200 USD. I don't want to spend more than this.
One part I'm confused about - you see I also have the Logitech Z-5500 which I use occasionally - I still need to use the SBZ to power the Z-5500s because they use the 3 plug (Green, Black, Orange) cables.
So does that mean that I will keep the Z-5500s plugged into the SBZ as is (with the 3 cables), but instead of plugging the HD 6XX into the headphone jack of my SBZ, I will instead be plugging an optical cable from the SBZ to the Schiit Modi and then that into the Magni (with the R/L cables) which I will be plugging my HD 6XXs into?
I just want to make sure that I got this right and that I can go ahead and buy the Schiit Stack, thanks for taking the time to read my hopefully not so stupid post!

The SB-Z (Sound Blaster Z) sound card comes with a separate headphone jack, separate from the 3 analog 5.1 output speaker jacks.
So you have the option of using an analog connection, or a S/PDIF optical connection, between the SB-Z and Z5500, use which ever connection sound good to your ears.
With analog output, the SB-Z's (Cirrus Logic) CS4398 DAC chip, only provides a DAC function, to the Front Speaker jack, the rears and Center/sub-woofer DAC function is provide by the SoundCore3D audio processor.
(The SB-Z's headphone jack also gets it's DAC function, from the CS4398).
With S/PDIF connection, the DAC function is provided by the Z-5500's built in DAC chips.
So with 5.1, use whichever connection sounds better for your ears.
You might try setting the SB-Z to 2.0 channel, Front speaker audio only and plug the HD6XX into the Z-5500's speaker jack, see if there is a different (or improvement), from using the SB-Z's headphone jack.

Also, for the SB-Z to send a 5.1 digital audio signal, thru S/PDIF (optical or coaxial), it uses compression, which limits the digital audio to 24-bit/48K, I'm guessing the SB-Z speaker analog jacks output 24-bit/192K

 

[Dark-Colonel]

That could be from a number of factors together.

First off the higher impendance and lower sensitivity of the 6XX/650 means that amp circuit has to work harder to drive it.

Second, the frequency response is a little bit flatter than the upper bass bump on the HD598.

Third, the low impedance of the HD598 with the high output impedance (30ohms I think) of the SBZ is likely exacerbating that bass bump, making it louder and possibly wider, in short it sounds warmer overall in addition to a more audible "thump" and you may not notice the downsides of such an effect unless you're listening to a song with very articulate bass string plucking or very fast bass drum double pedal work with the individual notes blending into each other already..

Thanks for the reply!

Not the first time I've seen mention of this before so you are most likely correct.

That can address only the first of the problems above. Not that the soundcard totally isn't struggling to drive the HD6XX and the lower effort that the Magni3 will exert will make zero difference, but that might not be the bulk of your problems there.

And in fact it may exacerbate all the others. The very low output impedance of the Magni will mean there will be even less of that EQ effect on all your headphones, so the HD598 will not get that low range boost that the soundcard's lower damping factor is giving it, and the HD6XX will be running even closer to what its measurements are like. Objectively, yes, it will be a large improvement, but subjectively, it may even be detrimental for your preferences if you prefer the HD598 distorting due to the low damping factor with the SBZ.

Not optimal, sure, but too many people already come back here ranting about how objectively better gear sounds subjectively much worse.

Interesting, so there is a chance that the HD 6XXs just aren't my cup of tea? I know that audio is completely subjective so that can certainly be a possibility.

The thing is, there are definitely notes and aspects of some tracks that sound fantastic to me with the 6XX. That's leading me to believe that I might be almost there but not quite with my current setup.

Would you say the the Sennheiser HD 58X Jubilees might potentially be a better pairing for me based on my enjoyment of the HD 598s?

You're not "powering" the Z-5500 using the SBZ. You're not using a speaker amp on the SBZ to drive those. The Z-5500 has its own speaker amplifiers for the subwoofer and satellites. The SBZ is just feeding it a line signal that its amp channels will work with to get sound out of the speakers.

That's how it will have to work, but now you'll have to go into the software to switch between outputs on the soundcard, ie SPDIF optical and analogue outputs.

Ok good to know! That's how I had it visualized in my head. Pardon my ignorance, I didn't mean to imply that the SBZs were "powering" my speakers, I should have said... feeding them an audio signal?

Appreciate the feedback!

I guess a question for you - based on what you have read of my history and so forth, is going down the path of getting a Schiit stack even a good idea for me? From my impression of what you've said, they will certainly make a difference, but it could be for the worse.

I've read and seen countless people talk about how the HD 650s "love tubes" but man those AMPs are hella expensive. Even though they look cool, its just is too much money for my budget.

Is there a better AMP/DAC combo for the $200 USD price? I couldn't really find them on eBay. These seem to be things people hang on to.

The SB-Z (Sound Blaster Z) sound card comes with a separate headphone jack, separate from the 3 analog 5.1 output speaker jacks.
So you have the option of using an analog connection, or a S/PDIF optical connection, between the SB-Z and Z5500, use which ever connection sound good to your ears.
With analog output, the SB-Z's (Cirrus Logic) CS4398 DAC chip, only provides a DAC function, to the Front Speaker jack, the rears and Center/sub-woofer DAC function is provide by the SoundCore3D audio processor.
(The SB-Z's headphone jack also gets it's DAC function, from the CS4398).
With S/PDIF connection, the DAC function is provided by the Z-5500's built in DAC chips.
So with 5.1, use whichever connection sounds better for your ears.
You might try setting the SB-Z to 2.0 channel, Front speaker audio only and plug the HD6XX into the Z-5500's speaker jack, see if there is a different (or improvement), from using the SB-Z's headphone jack.

Also, for the SB-Z to send a 5.1 digital audio signal, thru S/PDIF (optical or coaxial), it uses compression, which limits the digital audio to 24-bit/48K, I'm guessing the SB-Z speaker analog jacks output 24-bit/192K

Thanks for the reply and suggestions! I also appreciate the breakdown of how the SBZs are driving my setup.

Unfortunately plugging the HD 6XXs into the front speakers did not make a difference :/

 

[PurpleAngel]

You might be able to get by with spending your audio budget for a external headphone amplifier.
As the SB-Z card comes with a nice CS4398 DAC chip.
So you would connect the SB-Z, to the Z-5500 optically and connect and any external headphone amplifier to the SB-Z's Front speaker jack.
Technically the SB-Z's Front speaker jack should feed at better analog audio signal, to an external Head amp, better then plugging the external head amp into the SB-Z's headphone jack.
This will bypass the SB-Z's SBX Headphone surround sound feature, but you have no need for the SBX Headphone for music audio.

Darkvoice OTL tube headphone amplifier.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/fs-darkvoice-336se.516462/
https://www.ebay.com/itm/DarkVoice-...061082?hash=item1cba24d81a:g:a4UAAOSwtM1bpFLk

Schiit Asgard headphone amplifier.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Aud...932987?hash=item4d7d6f607b:g:L5UAAOSw88pbqAFL
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schiit-Aud...787354?hash=item4d7db972da:g:USYAAOSw3MpbrNw2

 

[PurpleAngel]

Here is a thread dedicated to the HD650/HD6XX, might try asking there for recommendations for a headphone amplifier, for a $200 budget.
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/sennheiser-hd650-massdrop-hd6xx-impressions-thread.197776/page-2781

 

[catscratch]

An amp will give your headphones more punch in the bass, better dynamic range and more clarity overall, but it's not going to change the fundamental character of the headphones. Now one of the signs of your system not having enough power for the HD650/6XX is a woolly, muffled sound with not enough bass punch and clarity overall, so maybe what you need is an amp. But you may also just need to get a different set of headphones.

The HD650/6XX's main claim to fame is the very accurate frequency response through the mids and highs. Most headphones struggle with accuracy and you can spend $6k on a pair of headphones and get something less accurate than the HD650. Us audio geeks will freak out about that and will sing the HD650's praises to high heaven, but if you're not looking for monitor-like accuracy in a headphone then you may not like the HD650, and that's fine.

By all means try the amp option, but maybe also see if there's a high end audio store somewhere nearby that carries quality headphones, and listen to some stuff back to back if you can. Maybe you'll find something you like more.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Thanks for the reply and suggestions! I also appreciate the breakdown of how the SBZs are driving my setup.
Unfortunately plugging the HD 6XXs into the front speakers did not make a difference :/

Did you max out the volume controls on the PC, to feed the strongest signal possible, to the Z5500?
Try both the analog and optical connections?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Interesting, so there is a chance that the HD 6XXs just aren't my cup of tea? I know that audio is completely subjective so that can certainly be a possibility.

Technically it should be more of aiming for a flatter response but subjectivity coming in only in what particular compromises you'll settle for in the abesence of a totally flat response.

The thing is, there are definitely notes and aspects of some tracks that sound fantastic to me with the 6XX. That's leading me to believe that I might be almost there but not quite with my current setup.

What aspects exactly? And the thing is even if that were the case, if you still prefer the HD598 now than the HD6XX, and if you're also not willing to risk any more cash for the likelihood that it won't make much of a difference the way you'd like it, might as well stick with the HD598.

Would you say the the Sennheiser HD 58X Jubilees might potentially be a better pairing for me based on my enjoyment of the HD 598s?

That depends on what exactly it is you like about the HD6XX, which the HD58X might not have either, on top of which even at a lower 150ohm impedance (vs HD580/580J/600/650/6XX) it's not likely to get the upper bass hump the ZXR is giving to your HD598 which is even lower. Maybe you'll get a slight boost in the midrange though but then again the effects aren't always easy to determine just by the impedance alone. In some cases the effects can be the other way around, like the K701 ending up sounding like a tin can on some high output impedance amps.

This is why a decent amp that won't alter the sound is important - that way you can more easily gauge what headphones might be good based on reviews or een your own listening in terms of longevity and picking parts (ie like if you upgrade the soundcard or motherboard with high output impedance and the replacement doesn't have the same effect).

Ok good to know! That's how I had it visualized in my head. Pardon my ignorance, I didn't mean to imply that the SBZs were "powering" my speakers, I should have said... feeding them an audio signal?

Yes, that's what it's doing.

I guess a question for you - based on what you have read of my history and so forth, is going down the path of getting a Schiit stack even a good idea for me? From my impression of what you've said, they will certainly make a difference, but it could be for the worse.

If you want to make the amplification more constant instead of one that modifies the sound that you might replace with another component that does something else completely, it's worth it.

If it's about your subjective preferences vs the sure thing you already have, then no.

I've read and seen countless people talk about how the HD 650s "love tubes" but man those AMPs are hella expensive. Even though they look cool, its just is too much money for my budget.

If you're not going to use it on a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone, there's the Little Dot MkIII (ie you don't always need something like WooAudio), but it has no built in DAC.

Is there a better AMP/DAC combo for the $200 USD price? I couldn't really find them on eBay. These seem to be things people hang on to.

I have a back up amp that eventually went down to $100 on eBay sellers and even $50 on Amazon - Pangea HP101. Almost similar to my Meier Cantate.2 if with a little bit of a sharp edge to it, plus a little bit of noise when you crank it up (even then it has to be at around 3:00 on the dial for the noise to kick in assuming it's not coming from the source). Downside is the tube is inside and I haven't figured out how to swap out the Shuguang for a Mullard that I haven't even used in my guitar amp and decided not to sell to try it out on that.

 

[Dark-Colonel]

An amp will give your headphones more punch in the bass, better dynamic range and more clarity overall, but it's not going to change the fundamental character of the headphones. Now one of the signs of your system not having enough power for the HD650/6XX is a woolly, muffled sound with not enough bass punch and clarity overall, so maybe what you need is an amp. But you may also just need to get a different set of headphones.

The HD650/6XX's main claim to fame is the very accurate frequency response through the mids and highs. Most headphones struggle with accuracy and you can spend $6k on a pair of headphones and get something less accurate than the HD650. Us audio geeks will freak out about that and will sing the HD650's praises to high heaven, but if you're not looking for monitor-like accuracy in a headphone then you may not like the HD650, and that's fine.

By all means try the amp option, but maybe also see if there's a high end audio store somewhere nearby that carries quality headphones, and listen to some stuff back to back if you can. Maybe you'll find something you like more.

Thanks for the reply! I'm definitely starting to believe that may be the case.

After doing some extra research on the 58X Jubilees, it seems like this may be something worth trying out. They went live again on Massdrop today so I joined in on the drop. They actually seem to be in stock so they'll be shipping out soon. I'll keep whichever one I like more.

Z Reviews actually convinced me to try them out. He made a very interesting point that's been mentioned in this thread that the HD 6-series in general are quite amp dependent whereas the HD 58Xs are not.

Fingers crossed!

What aspects exactly? And the thing is even if that were the case, if you still prefer the HD598 now than the HD6XX, and if you're also not willing to risk any more cash for the likelihood that it won't make much of a difference the way you'd like it, might as well stick with the HD598.

I wish I could! The clamping force around the top which would give me a headache is the only reason why I gave up on them. I had them for 2 years! I tried to stretch them, I gave them a good long try but I could only enjoy them for 45-60 minutes at a time. For this reason I was quite hesitant to even get the 6XXs but they fit my head much better and are 10/10 in comfort.

That depends on what exactly it is you like about the HD6XX, which the HD58X might not have either, on top of which even at a lower 150ohm impedance (vs HD580/580J/600/650/6XX) it's not likely to get the upper bass hump the ZXR is giving to your HD598 which is even lower. Maybe you'll get a slight boost in the midrange though but then again the effects aren't always easy to determine just by the impedance alone. In some cases the effects can be the other way around, like the K701 ending up sounding like a tin can on some high output impedance amps.

You're absolutely right and I might also not like the HD 58Xs (to be fair, I think the 6XXs are excellent but they just aren't for me so far/I don't have the equipment to drive them).

I bought into the 58X Jubilee drop today, they're in stock and I should hopefully have them sometime next week.

I will post back with the results and comparisons after some good listening.

Thanks for all the responses, much appreciated!