[Reticuli2]

I rank the ER4S and DT1350 above the K701 and HD580, which I think lack focus & crisp transient attack and seem especially meant for very high listening levels. The ER4S and DT1350 are finicky with source, amp/jack, and seal, but once you nail that... wow. I can see myself mastering with the AKG and Senn to ensure I don't have too much glare on the former or lack of snap and crispness on the latter, but doesn't seem much point to them for me other than that. I might use the K701 for sound snipping/edits, but probably not the HD580. I'm trying to like them.

The HD25 and DT990Pro (open, but definitely not audiophile) are a little imbalanced and clearly at a lower refinement tier than these other four, but fun headphones for the right sources and material. I'd still rather hear the HD25 than the DT990Pro, though.

Ditto with the KRK 6400 being lower tier, but with what I think is a balanced though less refined and higher-distortion headphone than the four "audiophile" cans. I also have various other headphones (Fostex, Ixos, Sony, Koss, Alesis, Extreme Isolation, etc) I sort of use for utility purposes, monitoring, etc.

By the way, I have an old pair of ESP-9's that I need to replace the foam and 1kohm resistors inside, and I way prefer its sound, aside from maybe the bass (issue with degraded foam, I think), to the K701 and HD580. ESP-9 seems to have some of the best mids I've ever heard and combined with a competent, inoffensive top end. It's sealed, too. I had the ESP950 for a while and, again, other than the bass, preferred the sealed stat even with unfixed degradation.

It's not that I hate the K701 or HD580, though the former has a little lift in the upper vocal mids and very top octave above neutral to my ears as well as being a little dry and the latter is a bit veiled as well as very slightly mids-centric, but they just can't touch my top two sealed headphones in focus, body, and transient attack. The ER4S and DT1350, and actually many of the lesser sealed cans, just seem more musical to me, especially when comparing at moderate listening levels, but even when cranked.

Am I weird not getting this whole open thing being so much better than sealed? I thought this was supposed to be like a no-brainer that open was easier to design. Which headphones would change my mind?

 

[Music Alchemist]

So basically, you're looking to try some of the better open-back headphones. I'll list a few of the better ones I've owned, in alphabetical order.

Audeze LCD-X
Focal Elear
HIFIMAN HE500
Koss ESP950 (At least you've heard this one. hehe)
Sennheiser HD 650
Sennheiser HD 800
STAX SR-Λ (SR-Lambda)
STAX SR-207
STAX SR-L300

Some of the best ones I've auditioned include the Abyss AB-1266 and HIFIMAN HE1000 and HE6.

It would be...inconvenient (to say the least) to purchase all these just to hear them. Perhaps you could check out meets and shops to audition open-back headphones.

 

[Reticuli2]

So basically, you're looking to try some of the better open-back headphones. I'll list a few of the better ones I've owned, in alphabetical order.

Audeze LCD-X
Focal Elear
HIFIMAN HE500
Koss ESP950 (At least you've heard this one. hehe)
Sennheiser HD 650
Sennheiser HD 800
STAX SR-Λ (SR-Lambda)
STAX SR-207
STAX SR-L300

Some of the best ones I've auditioned include the Abyss AB-1266 and HIFIMAN HE1000 and HE6.

It would be...inconvenient (to say the least) to purchase all these just to hear them. Perhaps you could check out meets and shops to audition open-back headphones.

Thanks for responding, Alchemist.

My ESP950 had a ground hum and channel imbalance and Koss was not helpful on the matter, so I kind of gave up on it and sent it back to Amazon. That's the first one Tyll measured. The ESP9 mids are way better, anyway. I just need to fix it or find someone else to do that. Sealed, heavy headphone, though.

Is the veil gone on the HD650? I hear it is darker than the 580 and 600, but I don't find the top too much or the bass substantially too little on the 580.

Those others... oh lordy, that's getting up in price. I have been impressed by Tyll's stuff on the new open Focals, but I'm freaked out about their quality control and the recent changes I've heard have occurred in the designs.

 

[squee116]

Thanks for responding, Alchemist.

My ESP950 had a ground hum and channel imbalance and Koss was not helpful on the matter, so I kind of gave up on it and sent it back to Amazon. That's the first one Tyll measured. The ESP9 mids are way better, anyway. I just need to fix it or find someone else to do that. Sealed, heavy headphone, though.

Is the veil gone on the HD650? I hear it is darker than the 580 and 600, but I don't find the top too much or the bass substantially too little on the 580.

Those others... oh lordy, that's getting up in price. I have been impressed by Tyll's stuff on the new open Focals, but I'm freaked out about their quality control and the recent changes I've heard have occurred in the designs.

The HE400i/HE400s are solid open back performers for the price.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Thanks for responding, Alchemist.

My ESP950 had a ground hum and channel imbalance and Koss was not helpful on the matter, so I kind of gave up on it and sent it back to Amazon. That's the first one Tyll measured. The ESP9 mids are way better, anyway. I just need to fix it or find someone else to do that. Sealed, heavy headphone, though.

Is the veil gone on the HD650? I hear it is darker than the 580 and 600, but I don't find the top too much or the bass substantially too little on the 580.

Those others... oh lordy, that's getting up in price. I have been impressed by Tyll's stuff on the new open Focals, but I'm freaked out about their quality control and the recent changes I've heard have occurred in the designs.

Ground loop noise is not caused by the audio equipment and can be removed with a ground loop isolator. (I just use a cheater plug on my laptop power supply, but this is potentially unsafe.) Another option is an optical TOSLINK cable to connect your source and DAC, since it electrically isolates the DAC. This worked for me as well, but if the ground loop is affecting the amp directly (instead of the laptop power supply in my case), it may not fix it.

How were they unhelpful? They have a lifetime warranty and would supposedly repair or replace it at no cost to you aside from shipping. (At least the E90 lets you change the balance of each channel.)

The HD 650 has good clarity and is relatively neutral, but it does have moderately boosted lows and somewhat rolled-off highs. It's noticeably less open-sounding than the HD 800, but that's to be expected. The HD 600, for me, was a little bass-light in spots and had troublesome upper frequency peaks (nowhere near as bad as the HD 700 and HD 800), but mostly sounded like a less refined, but more dynamic HD 650. Both of them have excellent mid-range. EQ can fix any of the tonal balance issues.

I've never heard the 580, but did have the 590 at one point. I read that the 580 is a lot like the 600.

Those were just a few examples. I could have listed many others, including lower-priced ones.

As far as my own experience with closed-back headphones goes...the best ones I had were the beyerdynamic T 5 p (2nd Generation), Fostex TH900, Yamaha HPH-MT220, and Focal Spirit Professional. Call me crazy, but I easily prefer the semi-open $20 Koss KTXPRO1 over those overall, though it's not always technically as good.

If you want to hear some great open-backs without spending a lot, try getting your hands on used STAX. (Such as the ones I listed.)

Just noticed the post that mentioned the HE400i. I could have listed that too, but I think the HE500 is better. (Sort of like a baby HE6.)

 

[Reticuli2]

The HE400i/HE400s are solid open back performers for the price.

Thanks.

Those have interested me for a while, but the inverted or undamped impulse scares me a bit on the Hifiman stuff, as does the constant changes in the designs. I will consider them.

Ground loop noise is not caused by the audio equipment and can be removed with a ground loop isolator. (I just use a cheater plug on my laptop power supply, but this is potentially unsafe.) Another option is an optical TOSLINK cable to connect your source and DAC, since it electrically isolates the DAC. This worked for me as well, but if the ground loop is affecting the amp directly (instead of the laptop power supply in my case), it may not fix it.

How were they unhelpful? They have a lifetime warranty and would supposedly repair or replace it at no cost to you aside from shipping. (At least the E90 lets you change the balance of each channel.)

The HD 650 has good clarity and is relatively neutral, but it does have moderately boosted lows and somewhat rolled-off highs. It's noticeably less open-sounding than the HD 800, but that's to be expected. The HD 600, for me, was a little bass-light in spots and had troublesome upper frequency peaks (nowhere near as bad as the HD 700 and HD 800), but mostly sounded like a less refined, but more dynamic HD 650. Both of them have excellent mid-range. EQ can fix any of the tonal balance issues.

I've never heard the 580, but did have the 590 at one point. I read that the 580 is a lot like the 600.

Those were just a few examples. I could have listed many others, including lower-priced ones.

As far as my own experience with closed-back headphones goes...the best ones I had were the beyerdynamic T 5 p (2nd Generation), Fostex TH900, Yamaha HPH-MT220, and Focal Spirit Professional. Call me crazy, but I easily prefer the semi-open $20 Koss KTXPRO1 over those overall, though it's not always technically as good.

If you want to hear some great open-backs without spending a lot, try getting your hands on used STAX. (Such as the ones I listed.)

Just noticed the post that mentioned the HE400i. I could have listed that too, but I think the HE500 is better. (Sort of like a baby HE6.)

Thanks.

The ground hum thing was definitely 100% the ESP 950 and it would strangely happen even when nothing was plugged into it. If I plugged a 3.5 into the unused input jack on it and put the other end on my body or touched any metal on the energizer, it'd go away. Didn't even need an audio connection. Batteries made no difference. The unit may have been acting as an antenna or something. Not sure. Koss said there was nothing wrong with it and I got hung up on the last time after the gal was rude to me. That one didn't measure particularly well, anyway. So it was probably for the best. They're double the price now, so I'm not motivated to try another.

KTX Pro1 looks like the KTX Pro I had. Boy, I didn't like that one. Overly tight (didn't even know that was possible) mid bass and sharp mid or lower treble. Let a friend borrow it and never got it back. Prefer the Sporta Pro. Hey, that's kind of a lower-tier open headphone I like. Not bad for jogging with. Forgot I had that one. I used to own an A200 which was ok but way way too bright. Holographic imaging, though. I loaned that to someone and it never came back.

Looking at measurements, I think the Focals might actually be to my liking. They seem to fall in between the ER4 and DT1350 in terms of frequency response, square waves, and impulse shape, with similar or better distortion profile. I just wish I could get more info on the way their newest ones measure. The Elear looks appealing at that price point if it performs close to Tyll's measurement.

 

[Music Alchemist]

KTX Pro1 looks like the KTX Pro I had. Boy, I didn't like that one. Overly tight (didn't even know that was possible) mid bass and sharp mid or lower treble. Let a friend borrow it and never got it back. Prefer the Sporta Pro.

Hmm, I guess they sound different now. That's not how I would describe the sound of the KTXPRO1.

I also have the Porta Pro KTC and don't like it anywhere near as much. I keep it around because it may be the most comfortable headphone I've worn. (I used to use it for videos since I'm less picky with sound quality for those, but I almost exclusively use speakers nowadays, so the Porta Pro is in its box for the time being.)

The Elear looks appealing at that price point if it performs close to Tyll's measurement.

I agree with the "super HD 650" nickname people gave the Elear. They're tuned very similarly, but the Elear is more technically impressive. I like it best with acoustic music. I still think the HD 650 is a better all-rounder with all types of music. But you can get used STAX for just a few hundred bucks, and they sound far more realistic to me than any four-figure non-electrostat.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I rank the ER4S and DT1350 above the K701 and HD580, which I think lack focus & crisp transient attack and seem especially meant for very high listening levels. The ER4S and DT1350 are finicky with source, amp/jack, and seal, but once you nail that... wow. I can see myself mastering with the AKG and Senn to ensure I don't have too much glare on the former or lack of snap and crispness on the latter, but doesn't seem much point to them for me other than that. I might use the K701 for sound snipping/edits, but probably not the HD580. I'm trying to like them.

The HD25 and DT990Pro (open, but definitely not audiophile) are a little imbalanced and clearly at a lower refinement tier than these other four, but fun headphones for the right sources and material. I'd still rather hear the HD25 than the DT990Pro, though.

Ditto with the KRK 6400 being lower tier, but with what I think is a balanced though less refined and higher-distortion headphone than the four "audiophile" cans. I also have various other headphones (Fostex, Ixos, Sony, Koss, Alesis, Extreme Isolation, etc) I sort of use for utility purposes, monitoring, etc.

By the way, I have an old pair of ESP-9's that I need to replace the foam and 1kohm resistors inside, and I way prefer its sound, aside from maybe the bass (issue with degraded foam, I think), to the K701 and HD580. ESP-9 seems to have some of the best mids I've ever heard and combined with a competent, inoffensive top end. It's sealed, too. I had the ESP950 for a while and, again, other than the bass, preferred the sealed stat even with unfixed degradation.

It's not that I hate the K701 or HD580, though the former has a little lift in the upper vocal mids and very top octave above neutral to my ears as well as being a little dry and the latter is a bit veiled as well as very slightly mids-centric, but they just can't touch my top two sealed headphones in focus, body, and transient attack. The ER4S and DT1350, and actually many of the lesser sealed cans, just seem more musical to me, especially when comparing at moderate listening levels, but even when cranked.

Am I weird not getting this whole open thing being so much better than sealed? I thought this was supposed to be like a no-brainer that open was easier to design. Which headphones would change my mind?

Everything you describe about the sound is more attributable to the sensitivity of those closed back headphones and the IEM more than the fact that they're closed cup designs.

If the sealed designs come into play it's only because you're dealing with less noise, so not only do you hear the music better regardless of the output level, but also because you're even farther (on top of the higher sensitivity) from pushing the amps.

 

[Reticuli2]

Everything you describe about the sound is more attributable to the sensitivity of those closed back headphones and the IEM more than the fact that they're closed cup designs.

If the sealed designs come into play it's only because you're dealing with less noise, so not only do you hear the music better regardless of the output level, but also because you're even farther (on top of the higher sensitivity) from pushing the amps.

Hmm... I don't think that's what's going on, as I find this to be the case even in quiet rooms and when taking great pains to make sure the actual volume output I'm experiencing is about the same, regardless of where the volume pot on the jack or amp is at. Your theory would otherwise be sound (pun!), though. I suspect it has something to do with the AKG and Sennheiser not being as damped in impulse response and having more bass distortion than the ER4S and especially the DT1350. Even though the Beyer is a touch dark in tonal balance and has a little suck out in the some of the upper mids and treble regions, it's REALLY nice. Can get a little uncomfortable when I'm wearing glasses, though. I think it might sound even more musical, especially at low volumes, than the ER4S, which I've had for nearly 20 years or something at this point and has usually been the benchmark I compare everything else to. The AKG and Senn are two interesting flavors that I might keep around since I got them for such good prices.

I decided to try a Stax system instead of the Focals. Tyll's measurement of the 207 puts it around the characteristics of the ER4S and DT1350, as well, but with even better low frequency square wave shape than the Focals. It will also be something exotic and different in technology from the other dynamics I have. There were certain unique characteristics to the Koss ESP 950 that I liked, even with its issues. So this should be a nice model to try. We'll see if it compels me to try the better Stax amp at some point or the L700 one day. Thanks!

 

[Music Alchemist]

I decided to try a Stax system instead of the Focals. Tyll's measurement of the 207 puts it around the characteristics of the ER4S and DT1350, as well, but with even better low frequency square wave shape than the Focals. It will also be something exotic and different in technology from the other dynamics I have. There were certain unique characteristics to the Koss ESP 950 that I liked, even with its issues. So this should be a nice model to try. We'll see if it compels me to try the better Stax amp at some point or the L700 one day. Thanks!

Nice. The SR-207 might be the most neutral headphone I've heard, and the transparency is magical. I'd say it's more accurate than the ESP950.

I hope you didn't have to pay too much for it. I only paid a little over $300 for a used SR-207 and SRM-212 a few years back, but since the SR-207 was discontinued, the price got jacked up on the aftermarket. I've seen the SRS-2170 (SR-207 + SRM-252S) for one or two grand on Amazon and eBay.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Hmm... I don't think that's what's going on, as I find this to be the case even in quiet rooms and when taking great pains to make sure the actual volume output I'm experiencing is about the same, regardless of where the volume pot on the jack or amp is at.

If you're using your ears to determine "about the same" the methodology is already subject to having ambient noise playing a role in what you perceive as "about the same."

Also ambient noise isn't always distinct sound. Ambient noise in the room where my computer is is 45dB. Run the computer - which has two fans running at 16dB, one fan at 10dB, a CPU cooler at around 16dB, with the graphics card on Zero Fan (idle) mode - takes that up to 55dB (ie, not exactly +16 much less +16+16+16+10). Just because you can't hear any distinct sound sources doesn't mean there isn't a relatively high noise floor compared to an acoustically isolated room.

 

[Reticuli2]

If you're using your ears to determine "about the same" the methodology is already subject to having ambient noise playing a role in what you perceive as "about the same."

Also ambient noise isn't always distinct sound. Ambient noise in the room where my computer is is 45dB. Run the computer - which has two fans running at 16dB, one fan at 10dB, a CPU cooler at around 16dB, with the graphics card on Zero Fan (idle) mode - takes that up to 55dB (ie, not exactly +16 much less +16+16+16+10). Just because you can't hear any distinct sound sources doesn't mean there isn't a relatively high noise floor compared to an acoustically isolated room.

Any particular reason why a Jameco 12V power supply reading as over 17 volts might be bad for the Stax when the 252S says it wants 12V? Sounds fine to me. A whole 5 volts seems like a big output increase over the supply's rating, though. I tried to get a better quality linear regulated, but had difficulty finding any. This one is cheap, Taiwanese unregulated linear.

I also errantly plugged left channel of Emu USB interface output into the parallel out right on the Stax amp when the right was correctly connected. Only got sound on right cup and was worried I might damage something. Seems ok.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Any particular reason why a Jameco 12V power supply reading as over 17 volts might be bad for the Stax when the 252S says it wants 12V? Sounds fine to me. 5 volts seems like a big output increase over the supply's rating, though. I tried to get a better quality linear regulated, but had difficulty finding any. This one is cheap, Taiwanese unregulated linear.

Be careful with what you connect to the STAX amp. The wrong things can fry it or blow a fuse.

I used (and recommend) this linear regulated power supply and reverse polarity converter with the SRM-252S.

http://www.jameco.com/z/DDU120100H4...ngle-Output-12-Volt-1-Amp-12-Watt_170245.html
https://store.truetone.com/1-spot-reverse-polarity-converter/

(Since that power supply has normal polarity, you have to use a reverse polarity converter with it.)

I also had this unregulated linear power supply with reverse polarity built-in. (But you should use a regulated linear power supply since it's safer.)

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_203036_-1

About the 12/17 thing...are you sure you're not talking about volts vs watts?

 

[Reticuli2]

I did a dumb thing and got lucky, I guess. Whew!

Where are you seeing the 170245 is regulated?

I bought this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/122214340739

This Jameco 15368 sounds fine with it but tests as over 17 volts on my multimeter. I have confirmed that the multimeter is not malfunctioning with a 9V and three other 12 volt multimeters. The plastic housing also needs glue on one edge since it won't stay closed.

 

[Reticuli2]

Their response:
Hello,
This power supply is unregulated, so it doesn’t have a voltage regulator. When you applied load, the voltage will drop to the rated voltage of 12VDC.
Thanks,

So, good info or bad info?