[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Sduibek ...are you listening to MUSIC, or plastic discs????? I really don't understand the over-the-top intellectual HiFi attitude some people here get. JaZZ, I humbly respect your knowledge base, skills, and ability/willingness to help people with many audio/electrical discussions. But, I don't agree that a system should be 100% neutral playing what's only on the recording blah blah blah. What? The system should SOUND GOOD. Period. Many times that's the exact OPPOSITE of "playing what's on the disc" :rolleyes Also, live music is always fun. Same as rickcr42, there is NO genre I would not enjoy live. I intend to replicate that at home, not replicate some dry and lacking representation of whatever happens to be recorded on the disc. What I want a system to do is attempt to replicate what music sounds like live, which is what it was meant to sound like. People don't perform music to have it sound good on electronic components They perform it to make it sound good live.

Yeah, fact is, I listen to music (predominantly) from plastic discs. And like you, I want maximum enjoyment from it. So in my understanding it should sound as similar as possible to real instruments, not plastic, otherwise the enjoyment factor is zero. Maybe we listen to different sorts of music? I listen to lots of contemporary classical and jazz where instrument timbres are decisive for the musical statement. If fun is part of the composition, it should of course be conveyed, but not in the wrong moments -- always a risk with funny sounding groovalizer headphones.

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Do you really think there's such a thing as neutral? Everything is an EQ.

True (to a certain degree). But does that mean we have to cultivate the EQ culture by introducing coloration as stylistic device? IMO no: Making the best out of the limited degree of perfection and trying to find optimal synergetic effects to «restore» neutrality is my approach. You want fun, and that's o.k. to me.


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Come on, haven't you yet realized it's possible to take the HiFi thing too far? Stop thinking so hard and begin to enjoy life. Be loud, have a good time, dance, sing in the shower!

I may indeed be one of the rather serious Head-Fiers -- but that's me. Let's say it's my audio character, and I leave my private temperament open. I guess diversity doesn't harm, does it?



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Originally Posted by chia-pet @jazz: plz don't change the way you post or your attitude. you are one of the very few head-fiers whom i respect and appreciate for your relatively objective observations, experience, and knowledge.

chia-pet, thanks for you kind words! Even if I would want to, I couldn't change my attitude, I seem to be a slave of myself...

 

[chia-pet]

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Originally Posted by Sduibek Did I say otherwise? read my post again

i've read your post again. now maybe you should go back and read mine again.

 

[10068]

Agree to disagree I suppose.

Damn, I hate doing that.

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Originally Posted by JaZZ Yeah, fact is, I listen to music (predominantly) from plastic discs. And like you, I want maximum enjoyment from it. So in my understanding it should sound as similar as possible to real instruments, not plastic, otherwise the enjoyment factor is zero. Maybe we listen to different sorts of music? I listen to lots of contemporary classical and jazz where instrument timbres are decisive for the musical statement. If fun is part of the composition, it should of course be conveyed, but not in the wrong moments -- always a risk with funny sounding groovalizer headphones.

One example of what I was talking about is that, if you have super detailed super netural headphone system, won't you hear coughing and pages turning in the background of your classical music? I have, and it makes it really hard for me to enjoy the music

On something like the RS-1 I can enjoy classical music much more, because by "squishing" the soundstage you don't hear those people in the audience and all that other junk. You just hear the music.

 

[Andrea]

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Originally Posted by Natsuiro Isn't it possible for some that a system doesn't "sound good" if it doesn't sound relatively neutral? Likewise, a so called "fun sound" may not be "fun" for others.

EXACT!!

That's 'holy true' (for me it is, and for some other I hope).



Sduibek, I don't have problems enjoying my plastic discs, in fact I don't need stuff like 'aftermarket cables' nor even 'headphone amps' at all.

 

[Natsuiro]

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Originally Posted by Philco . While I agree a good source is important, I NEVER heard the difference between a $500 CDP with good D/A converters and a $5000 Linn CDP. It's all audiophile junk to me. People buy stuff and stuff and stuff and figure out that unless you pay a premium, you won't get something decent. The brain is complex, most of the audiophiles are really only victims of the placebo effect. ALL IMHO.

Can you really imply such a blanket statement that high end sources are no different than a $500 one with a good D/A based solely on the fact you could not hear a difference between a certain $500 and another $5000 cd player?

 

[Philco]

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Originally Posted by Natsuiro Can you really imply such a blanket statement that high end sources are no different than a $500 one with a good D/A based solely on the fact you could not hear a difference between a certain $500 and another $5000 cd player?

Blanket statement? If you CAN actually hear the difference, my friend, you are gifted with one of the most perfect pair of ears never known to mankind.

Look, even if someone has VERY GOOD ears, I doubt he can tell the difference between 0.00001% THD and 0.0001% THD. Same applies to S/N ratio. If the $500 CDP has a good D/A (as I implied) the difference is unaudible. There is nothing else that can affect the sound of a CDP, except the converters.

I can hear the difference between a $50 CDP with poor converters and a $5000 one, because there IS actually a difference in technical performance. When two products offer similar technical performance, someone who can hear differences is victim of a placebo effect because there ARE NO technical arguments to back those claims up.

Science is science, no matter what audiophiles say.

 

[philodox]

Somebody obviously hasnt heard the $40k Wadia transport/dac combo... that thing floored everyone at the Chicago meet that heard it.

Philco - You are being a little close minded in your views on sources for a forum like this... out of curiosity what sources have you heard and what were your experiences? Specifics, I've had enough blanket statements.

And wait a minute... are you trying to say that you can tell what a CDP sounds like by looking at its THD and S/N ratio? I suppose you know what a headphone sounds like by consulting its frequency range and impedence?

 

[Philco]

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Originally Posted by philodox Somebody obviously hasnt heard the $40k Wadia transport/dac combo... that thing floored everyone at the Chicago meet that heard it. Philco - You are being a little close minded in your views on sources for a forum like this... out of curiosity what sources have you heard and what were your experiences? Specifics, I've had enough blanket statements. And wait a minute... are you trying to say that you can tell what a CDP sounds like by looking at its THD and S/N ratio? I suppose you know what a headphone sounds like by consulting its frequency range and impedence?

The 40k thing floored everyone because the knew the price and the brain's response to it was "it must be great for that price" so everyone thought it was great. The unconscious in very strong in audiophiles.

I can tell how a CDP sounds by looking at specs, OF COURSE I CAN!

Look, a CDP can't do better than what is digitally engraved on disc. The only thing it does is convert the digital information into analog information. If the D/A converters are good and offer "closed to truth" conversion, there are no audible differences. So if the specs are good, so is the sound. Again, I could go to great lenghts telling you how BAD a CD (no SACD here, I'm talking about regular CD) sounds! 44.1 kHz sampling and 16 bits (which only about 12 bits are really used) offer no quality whatsoever. Why would I pay premium price for something that can't do better than 44.1kHz and 12 bits ? LOL

As far as my experiences go, it all begun 14 years ago with rat shack CDP, has gone up to Sony CDP, Sony SACD players, NAD cd players, rotel and linn CDP.

I stopped after hearing the linn cause I had troubles indentifying differences between Sony's best regular CDP and the Linn. Further research was thus not required.

Phildox and others, I'm really sorry to burst your bubble, but audio is one of the world where the brains tackles the impressions and opinions more than anything else. Once you get past a certain quality level, anything else is better by as much as you BELIEVE it is.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Philco Blanket statement? If you CAN actually hear the difference, my friend, you are gifted with one of the most perfect pair of ears never known to mankind. Look, even if someone has VERY GOOD ears, I doubt he can tell the difference between 0.00001% THD and 0.0001% THD. Same applies to S/N ratio. If the $500 CDP has a good D/A (as I implied) the difference is unaudible. There is nothing else that can affect the sound of a CDP, except the converters.

There we have it: the central component of a CDP is the digital-to-analogue converter. You will find converters with much better specs and narrower tolerances with respect to conversion linearity and THD with high-end CDPs, some of them also with better jitter immunity. I won't bring up the quality of transports, because it's hard to argue with them, since the only area where they show significant measuring differences is jitter, nevertheless I can tell you that transports matter.

Back to DACs: It's not about 0.00001% or 0.0001% THD, rather 0.005 or 0.3%. Still very low values. But they may be audible, at least they're in a range comparable to amps. And since you magically have converted to a believer in sonic differences with amps, they seem to be audible -- after all in most cases they are the only measuring data where you'll find differences at all. And since all DACs have amps as output stage (are you amazed?), we have every reason to assume that high-end CDPs will sound better than cheaper (and let's say decent) CDPs.


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Science is science, no matter what audiophiles say.

How true!

But science is not what you're trying to make of it: half-knowledge serving for useless argumentation for lack of experience and aural sensitivity.

 

[jesse_w]

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Originally Posted by Philco Science is science, no matter what audiophiles say.

Oh come on, if you're going to go with science this half-assed "my opinions are scientific" and heresay BS is not going to fly. Your hearing is not a controlled scientific experiment, and your (sourceless) statistics and placebo-blaming fail to take into account all the other components in a CDP other than the DAC (and all the other components to sound other than frequency response), which certainly don't affect the signal at all

If you're going to even MENTION science, you better be ready to bust out some controlled, well documented experiments, proper sources, and PROPER double-blind tests. No one on head-fi spouting BS like yourself has ever managed to live up to this, and yet they often like to take refuge in 'science' as if mere mention of that word (and 'placebo') destroys subjective opinions. Pseudo-science is mere arrogance.

jesse

 

[Philco]

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Originally Posted by JaZZ Back to DACs: It's not about 0.00001% or 0.0001% THD, rather 0.005 or 0.3%. Still very low values. But they may be audible, at least they're in a range comparable to amps. And since you magically have converted to a believer in sonic differences with amps, they seem to be audible -- after all in most cases they are the only measuring data where you'll find differences at all. And since all DACs have amps as output stage (are you amazed?), we have every reason to assume that high-end CDPs will sound better than cheaper (and let's say decent) CDPs. How true! But science is not what you're trying to make of it: half-knowledge serving for useless argumentation for lack of experience and aural sensitivity.

I am not amazed at all that converters have some kind of buffers to provide signal level amplitude.

But this doesn't destroy my argument that between a $500 CDP with good converters (and good output buffers if you insist on me saying that...) is not sounding any better than a $5000 CDP.

Also, 0.3 THD is a little high for a $500 CDP don't you think? Numbers are more around 0.001 and 0.0005 if you want me to be a little more consciencious.

Science is not what I try to make of it ? Common, science is everything. You should try to be a little more rational sometimes and come down to earth. All that you are hearing is a byproduct of science.

And don't try to tell me I lack aural sensitivity LOL! If you want to believe you hear different sounds, then it's YOUR thing, but I'm not buying that audiophile crap. I'm saving myself thousands of $$$ and providing BS vendors a lot less of my hard earned money by trusting numbers and being down to earth which means the following:

1) Understanding that one CANNOT hear better sound past an "excellent sound threshold". It's important to keep things at a SANE level and understand that you won't get much past a certain quality threshold, you'll only waste money.

2) Makers of aftermarket cables are there to BS you and they never heard of wave propagation theory...lol...

3) Transport does nothing to digital formats as far as sound is concerned. Even if I buy the audiophile argument that transport improves jitter, can you really hear the difference? Of course NO!

 

[Philco]

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Originally Posted by jesse_w Oh come on, if you're going to go with science this half-assed "my opinions are scientific" and heresay BS is not going to fly. Your hearing is not a controlled scientific experiment, and your (sourceless) statistics and placebo-blaming fail to take into account all the other components in a CDP other than the DAC (and all the other components to sound other than frequency response), which certainly don't affect the signal at all If you're going to even MENTION science, you better be ready to bust out some controlled, well documented experiments, proper sources, and PROPER double-blind tests. No one on head-fi spouting BS like yourself has ever managed to live up to this, and yet they often like to take refuge in 'science' as if mere mention of that word (and 'placebo') destroys subjective opinions. Pseudo-science is mere arrogance. jesse

You are correct by saying that if I had time and budget behind me, I would make scientific proof that all that audiophile BS is crap. However, I don't have that time or money to spend, especially considering it would cause a shock in the audiophile business and cause many so called audiophile product makers to be out of business.

BUT....( a big but...)

This would be senseless as one should have enough intelligence to figure out that between VERY GOOD specs and EXCELLENT specs there is NOTHING to be heard! Damn, is it that hard for you guys to understand that the differences are INAUDIBLE and that all you are hearing is actually placebo effect and mind-setting?

Bottom line is this: Yes your ears are driven by scientific data. I won't go any further, take some acoustic and EE books and do your job.

 

[JaZZ]

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Originally Posted by Philco I am not amazed at all that converters have some kind of buffers to provide signal level amplitude.

Sorry mate, but you have a generally wrong understanding of audio digital techniques -- but I won't do anything to help you gaining better insight, since you seem not too interested in audio and moreover not to be a really nice guy.


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...this doesn't destroy my argument that between a $500 CDP with good converters (and good output buffers if you insist on me saying that...) is not sounding any better than a $5000 CDP.

I don't think any data would shatter your belief, but yourself you have very few substance to offer to support your CDP statement save for polemics, the repetition of your credo and a strong will to defend your non-audiophile hearing. A useless discussion.

 

[philodox]

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Originally Posted by Philco The 40k thing floored everyone because the knew the price and the brain's response to it was "it must be great for that price" so everyone thought it was great. The unconscious in very strong in audiophiles.

Yep, it was all in our heads. So nice of you to pass judgment based on your strong negative bias.

I will admit that the mind is a powerfull thing and that your expectations can have a bearing on the results that you percieve, but I think you are taking things a little far here. And what is with people who throw around 'audiophile' like a dirty word. Audiophile denotes an appreciation of and interest in audio reproduction, nothing more. Sure there are some who are huge fanboys and are constantly praising their new tweak, but that doesnt mean that there are not just as many conservative and sceptical audiophiles.

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Originally Posted by Philco I can tell how a CDP sounds by looking at specs, OF COURSE I CAN! Look, a CDP can't do better than what is digitally engraved on disc. The only thing it does is convert the digital information into analog information. If the D/A converters are good and offer "closed to truth" conversion, there are no audible differences. So if the specs are good, so is the sound. Again, I could go to great lenghts telling you how BAD a CD (no SACD here, I'm talking about regular CD) sounds! 44.1 kHz sampling and 16 bits (which only about 12 bits are really used) offer no quality whatsoever. Why would I pay premium price for something that can't do better than 44.1kHz and 12 bits ?

Sorry buddy but you are wrong. There are differences in more expensive CD players like cleaner power, better analog stages, and more accurate clocks [I'm sure there is a lot that I am leaving out here as well]. Obviously the DAC is a huge part of the sound, but it is not the only factor. A lot about a CD player can be seen in the specs, but like any audio component it must be heard to be appreciated.

As for the redbook format, I dont think it is quite as horrible as you are making it seem. Have you heard a well recorded CD? There is a lot of crap out there on the market, but the redbook format has a lot of potential when the recordings are done right. Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco As far as my experiences go, it all begun 14 years ago with rat shack CDP, has gone up to Sony CDP, Sony SACD players, NAD cd players, rotel and linn CDP. I stopped after hearing the linn cause I had troubles indentifying differences between Sony's best regular CDP and the Linn. Further research was thus not required.

So you found one component that was not up to the hype and now have made a sweeping generalization about all high end CD players? I wholeheartedly agree with you that there is a lot of snake oil and fancy marketing out there in the industry, but that does not mean that there are not some products out there that actually do make a difference. I am all for believeing what you hear, but discounting everyone elses opinions just because of a bad experience on your part is pretty silly. Quote:

Originally Posted by Philco Phildox and others, I'm really sorry to burst your bubble, but audio is one of the world where the brains tackles the impressions and opinions more than anything else. Once you get past a certain quality level, anything else is better by as much as you BELIEVE it is.

Burst my bubble... that is a laugh. It will take a bit more than your ranting to do that I'm afraid.

What is the arbitrary quality level where it all becomes in your head? I've heard some high end systems that were amazing and some that were unimpressive. I've also had a little journey of my own and I am happy to say that it is still continuing.

EDIT: I doubt that you will take the time, but I recently gave some impressions of my Eastsound CD-E5 when used as a transport. If you want to have a read the link is in my signature. Suffice it to say, IMO transports do make a difference.

 

[aerius]

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Originally Posted by Philco I can tell how a CDP sounds by looking at specs, OF COURSE I CAN!

Would you like to explain why my Panasonic CD/DVD player sounds worse than my 9 year old Denon CD player despite having better specs?