[Welly Wu]

OMG.

What?! did I do this with my Linux thread awhile ago?

 

[Stephonovich]

Actually, I thought this thread was about Linux... had to scroll up to remind myself what it was originally about. Sorry to threadcrap on Mr. PD's thread.

And no, it seems I started this, with this comment, in reply to bLue_oNioN's post about rising minimum requirements:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich I disagree with you on that it's 'to be expected'. I cite Linux as an example...

*Hits self with a halibut*

Still, methinks his original question has been answered. I myself would like to continue the discussion currently on-going. I can start a new thread if so desired, I suppose, but no one's complained so far.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich No, I'm not. However, if someone goes to the trouble to buy Linux, (and this is where I think they'll suceed the most, since purchased copies generally come with tech support and manuals) they're going to give it some work to try and make it work. With most of the consumer distros, such as SuSE and Mandrake, there is no configuration. Believe me, I've installed these on every type of computer there is, and they just work. It's like XP, except better. (When was the last time you saw XP configuring DHCP while booting so that it instantly works when you're at a desktop? Plug Linux into a network and it just works, period)

You're missing my point. Please see the end of my post for a response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Actually, on that printers example... just this afternoon I plugged a HP Deskjet 882C into this XP box. It was previously installed on this computer, so presumably, the drivers are still present. However, Windows searched around for about 5 minutes before declaring it couldn't find anything. I had to manually find them and point Windows to the .inf files before it realized it had them available. As for Linux, yes, plug 'n play is very good indeed. I've had less problems with it finding drivers than Windows, with any distro. Linux even came up with drivers for a very ancient ISA TV Tuner card that Windows refused to touch. I couldn't even find drivers for it on the internet, but Linux grabbed it right away, without any configuration.

Are you trying to tell me that direct vendor driver support for Linux is superior in quantity and quality to driver support for Windows? Because I find that idea laughable. It would not reflect the composition of the market shares. To use a personal example is misleading because we are talking about a market here -- individual accounts matter little, it is the average experience due to probability that matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Umm... I beg to differ . (yes, the period is a seperate link) And I haven't even begun to get into the fact that pretty much every distro, even relatively small ones, have their own dedicated forum. The Gentoo forums are a real stand out. Any question you could possibly have has already been answered, but if you feel like posting again, they're glad to help you. And as I've mentioned, if you purchase a copy of Linux, it usually comes with live tech support. I personally have yet to run into a problem I couldn't solve between forums and Google. On the flip side, there's been some problems in Windows that were so weird, no one knew what the problem was. Things like random freeze-ups that last 10 seconds and then go away of their own accord. And now, it's not a power supply or RAM problem. Not hardware at all. Linux runs fine. No, Linux is not inferior in the support department. It has a thriving community that is glad to offer help to any and all.

Joe doesn't want to visit forums. He wants his MP3 player to just work, but it's not working. Joe is getting frustrated. Joe is cursing out loud now and regrets he ditched Windows. Joe uninstalls Linux, figures out after an hour how to reinstall Windows, and moves on with his worry-free life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Have Joe Schmoe buy a copy of Linux, rather than download it, and it'll come with a nice thick manual detailing every aspect of that distro. What's more, the installation process in most modern distros (tweaky ones like Gentoo excluded; I'm talking about SuSE, Mandrake, Redhat, et. al.) is laughably easy. More so than Windows. I strongly recommend the last link, in particular. Quite good, and it uses an average Schmoe (er, Schmoette) to do both installations. The first three are a series showing different distros against both Win2K and XP.

Joe doesn't want to read the manual. Joe wants everything to be so easy there is no need to read a manual (when's the last time you read the Windows manual?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich IIRC, the first time I installed an OS (98SE) from scratch, loaded 3rd party drivers, installed apps, etc., I was 10. Before that, I had loaded DOS on a 286 Packard Bell when I was 6 or so. A Mac ][ was my first foray into the GUI world, around when I was 8 or so. That didn't require any installation, though; the OS was on a floppy. (no HD)

That's very impressive! But I think we can agree that this is certainly nowhere near average. If this were average, viruses and trojans and whatnot all wouldn't be such a problem because people would have more common sense and technical knowledge. Admit it, people out there (sadly still) do some pretty stupid things. Lots of viruses and worms count on it. You'd think someone wouldn't be so foolish as to do "x" after being repeatedly warned not to do it, but they do it anyway.

EDIT: Just think about all the worms that spread through attachments. How many times have we heard from others not to open attachments from strangers? And yet, we have millions of Joes and Josephines opening attachments with titles like "Anna NUDE! OPEN NOW!" or "Your husband is cheating on you, here are the pictures". Many of these attachments have false extensions, something that can be easily fixed by unchecking "Hide extensions for known file types" -- you would think that after all these years, Joe would at least know this. Well, guess what? He doesn't. Never underestimate the cluelessness of the Schmoes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Beautified it? I hardly think so. Just because KDE and Gnome resemble Windows in that there's a Start Menu and icons on your desktop doesn't mean it's Windows. Besides, the family in this case ran ONLY Linux. Doesn't matter much if it looks like Windows if the kid has never seen it, does it? As for simplistic tasks, using SSH and SCP doesn't seem to simple to me... I was introduced to that maybe a couple of years ago, when I was 14. Granted, typing random gibberish is nothing special, and nothing that couldn't be utilized using Word. I really, truly wish I could find those articles I mentioned. They were quite compelling. Alas, no amount of Googling has found them so far. I admit, the pages I linked weren't the greatest.

I never said it was Windows. In fact, I remember saying the exactly opposite. No average 8-year-old is going to run SSH, Linux or no Linux.

I am glad to see that you see my point in this instance regarding the content of the articles =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich I question why you want it to resemble Windows in the first place. Is learning a new interface really all that difficult? C'mon, a GUI is a GUI. Having to adjust to not having a big button marked 'Start' isn't all that hard. Heck, a few days ago I installed Firefox on a client's computer to help some with her spyware problem, and also, pop-ups. I was going to install an IE theme so she wouldn't have to learn anything, but she took a look at it and said she wouldn't have any problem. This person was not computer literate in the least. She'd had this HP machine for 3 years and had no idea it had a CD burner, or what it was for.

I think installing Firefox on a Windows-based computer and installing Linux on a fresh HDD are two very different matters. Not to mention the fact that Firefox's default theme resembles IE very, very much. "File, Edit, View, Bookmarks, Tools, Help, Address bar" etc etc -- it's all the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich As for the installation bit, see my previous comments. Installing Linux is a snap. Put CD in, click next, next, next. Best of all, there's no restrictive licensing agreement to click through, nor do you have to hunt for your CD key. And, of course, it's hardware detection is spot-on. About the only thing that might throw a new user for a loop is the root account. Windows (XP, anyway) has given everyone Administrator access by default. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing if you know what you're doing and have your system locked down from outside intruders fairly well, it's a very bad idea in Linux. If you've ever noticed, Windows won't let you delete some things. Gives you access violations, and even if you try, it warns you multiple times. Linux doesn't care what's using a file, it's gonna delete it. As for confirmation, it asks you once. If you're logged in as root, it assumes you know what you're doing. Which you should, if you use root. I once deleted the entire Linux system (rm -rf *), directory by directory while in X. It never complained once, nor did it lock up. It even managed to shut down. Upon reboot, of course, nothing was there. This is a testament to it's stability and power, methinks.

Windows makes it so that there's an extra step so that Joe Schmoe won't go out and get himself piss drunk after he accidentally permanently delete his work for the past six months.

---------------------------------------

Stephonovich - I think my point isn't as clear as it should be so I will try again.

My point is this: Joe/Josephine Schmoe wants to watch ESPN/Smallville, he/she doesn't want to fiddle around with his computer. He doesn't want to make things work, he just wants it to work.

My point is not:
- Linux is inferior in functionality to Windows
- Linux is a command-line-only operating system meant for geeks

Thus, your providings of forums and whatnot are entirely useless. Most of the Joe and Josephine Schmoes I know hardly have any interest in a forum. In several cases, they don't even know forums like this exist. Again, very rarely will Joe and Josephine go to such great lengths to find a solution. At the very most, they will pick up the phone and call tech support. When I said "community" I didn't mean a forum like this, I meant the world at large.

I will restate my post.

Linux is not suited for the average Joe who just wants things to work.

This can be examined through the aspects of compatability and support.

Compatability:
- The majority of devices released for the consumer base are designed with Windows in mind because most of the consumer base runs Windows. If you can find a study that shows more devices support Linux than Windows, or that the majority of all products released have as much support for Linux as they do for Windows, please, by all means, show me. Until then, there is nothing you can do to refute this argument.

Support:
- Again, the majority of devices released for the consumer base are designed with Windows in mind because most of the consumer base runs Windows. Most companies will thus prepare their technical support lines for Windows-based questions.

If Joe goes out and buys an MP3 player that needs some sort of software for file transfers and finds out that there isn't a Linux version bundled he is most likely not going to get much help from the MP3 player companies tech support hotline. To Joe, this is trouble enough. This is reason enough for Joe to ditch Linux, and somehow, this is the point I have been trying to make that you have been avoiding all along. Yes, if you look hard enough you will in most cases resolve your difficulties. Unfortunately, not everyone is as willing as you to delve in and be proactive in finding a solution.

Now, if Joe goes out and purchases a copy of Linux that comes with technical support, he can call. But if you are going to suggest to me that Joe won't be calling the Linux tech line as much as he would Windows', then I think we need to agree to disagree. From your previous response of "No, I'm not" to my question "Are you trying to tell me that if all the Joe Schmoes in the world attempted to switch over to Linux one day, the transition will be silky smooth?" it seems like you agree with me on this.

As I stated before, average Joe is not prepared or determined enough to follow up on hiccups like this. These problems can become aggravating to someone that just wants things to work.

NOTE: The point I'm trying to make is very simple, and I'm trying to avoid any further unnecessary runarounds, so I apologize if I'm starting to sound like Bush does with his buzzwords

 

[Welly Wu]

I tend to agree with both of you Blue Onion and Steponovich. You guys are definitely more knowledgeable about both OSes than me and computers to boot.

The thing is, I see how Blue Onion is saying that Linux is "for geeks by geeks." It is true. What little I know about the Linux history from 1994 onwards proves this. Take a look at the vast differences in the way that Windows and Linux are created as a system. Windows is an almost perfect business model of how to get small, medium, and large corporations to do business (according to the 1 Micro$oft Way). Gates and Balmer were very smart to morph their almost perfect business model OS to meet the mixed needs of people who want entertainment from their home PCs. Hence, 99.999% of all games are coded for the M$ Windows OS. But, it's more than that now. It's becoming, gulp gulp gulp, the convergence one solution box. HDTV, HD-DVD, Radio, HI-FI (yeah right), and just about everything else that people do for kicks after work is all being centered on multi-role, multi-tasking powerful computers at lower and lower prices. Windows is built from the ground up to adapt to market conditions, seek emerging markets, and establish market sector dominance as soon as Gates and Balmer decide it is a "must do."

Linux, from what I am reading and little I know, is a vastly different concept. It is small, nimble, and fast along with being very very powerful for geeks made by geeks. It is created as having very specific and powerful appeals: (let me get my Linux book, hold on) 1. POWER, STABILITY, Multi-lingual support, and personal philosophy. 2. MONEY (it's free as in free beer). 3. INFINITELY CUSTOM TAILORED. This is nice for computer geeks with very strong controlling personalities. 4. SECURITY...to a point. Security is as good as the man behind the computer though. Sure, Linux is more secure because it does not dominate 95% of all the computers in the world. It's a much much smaller target. It's also fast, nimble, and customizable so that any attack by hackers, crackers, and trouble makers can be addressed quickly by the devoted cult like following of Penguinistas.

Like I said, the reason why I want to install a dual-boot Micro$oft Windows XP Professional SP-2 and Fedora Code Linux configuration is to learn more about computers and personal philosophy. Linux's appeals are right for me at this time in my life. I'm not saying that I will ditch Windows forever but that might just happen if I get as sucked into the Linux community as I seem to be heading.

There will always be Windows. The question for me is not how many faults does Windows have or how much clout and dominance does Micro$oft have (though it is a stickling point for me) but where can Windows go in the future? How much is the culture at Micro$oft willing to adapt, change, and even do a little self implosion to build better software? I have absolutely no doubt that given the money, business influence, and brain power at Micro$oft that they could design a super operating system and super software that will take over 98% of the market -- if they decide it is worth doing after all the trouble. It's just, to me as a casual observer, it ain't worth doing given the very strong leadership and personalities of both Gates and Ballmer. They're very much steeped into traditional ways. Traditional in the box thinking. Protecting their business models and sources of revenue. Enjoying their priviliged lives which they fully deserve given how much enormous risk they overcame in their lives to build Micro$oft. I just don't think that they are ready to trade security and comfort in what they spent their entire lives building just to embrace cutting edge technology for the sake of cutting edge technology. It doesn't make business sense to them. They're businessmen through and through now and not the same pioneering software computer geeks (or nerds as they were called back then in their early 20s).

Oh well. That's fine. Heck, when I finally get my 401K program at Barnes & Noble, you bet that I'm going to consider investing in certain NADAQ index funds starting with Micro$oft on my short list. But, I digress.

I understand that it's a cultural struggle between never say die Micro$oft Windows users and Linux penguinista revolutionaries. It's like the cultural divide here at Head-Fi between the dedicated source components and computers as source components guys. You all know where I stand: put a computer in the chain of a "very high end" (who said that?) AV system, and quality suffers. Audiophiles and videophiles know it to be very much partially true. I still have a hard time believing that an EMU soundcard, modded and tricked out, can sound better than a Meridian 588 Red Book CD player at $2000 USD used price. No way.

But, to each his own. However, respect is called for in such delicate matters.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Actually, I've tried to steer away from labeling Linux as a "for geeks by geeks" OS the entire time because it's true Linux has come a long, long way. Someone such as yourself with the proper amount of determination could most certainly figure everything out. But current market conditions, with a clear bias toward Windows support, are what I believe will hinder Joe Schmoe from having the ultimate experience.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN Are you trying to tell me that direct vendor driver support for Linux is superior in quantity and quality to driver support for Windows? Because I find that idea laughable.

Direct vendor support? No; very few manufacturers do that. ATI pretty much dropped Linux support, and nVidia's still so-so. However, 3rd parties still keep up the good work. Believe me, you can put Linux on anything, and you're very likely going to have everything autoconfigured by the time you have a desktop. Heck, I popped PHLAK into a guy's computer today to troubleshoot it, and it picked up his obscure NIC, and set up his broadband connection on it's own. It just worked. If you have an old computer sitting around, especially with older, outdated hardware, I challenge you to put XP on it, then Linux. See what works better. And don't tell me you can't figure out Knoppix; put the CD in and reboot. For one, of course, XP will run dog slow, whereas Linux will skip merrily along. For another, XP will likely not have drivers for some of the more obscure stuff. Linux will.

Quote:

Joe doesn't want to visit forums. He wants his MP3 player to just work, but it's not working. Joe is getting frustrated. Joe is cursing out loud now and regrets he ditched Windows. Joe uninstalls Linux, figures out after an hour how to reinstall Windows, and moves on with his worry-free life.

Most MP3 players show up as a removeable drive in Linux and Windows, IIRC, if you don't install the crap software that's usually bundled. Methinks most people can follow the instructions "Double-click on icon x".

Quote:

Joe doesn't want to read the manual. Joe wants everything to be so easy there is no need to read a manual (when's the last time you read the Windows manual?)

If Joe can't be arsed to read the manual, it's his own bloody fault. My dad was a techie at Gateway for 7 years, and I can't tell you the number of times he'd have stories of people calling in saying "I just opened this computer box up and it won't turn on." He'd answer back with, "Did you read the manual?" To which they invariably replied "No." RTFM, people. Simple as that. If you can't comprehend that, try the Quick Start guide. That at least ought to get you up and running. Sorry, but I really get pissed when people say they don't have time to read a manual. And as for when I last read a Windows manual, 98SE. I, um, don't have the manual for XP... yeah...

Quote:

That's very impressive! But I think we can agree that this is certainly nowhere near average.

Of course it's not. I was just saying, though, it's not impossible for kids to learn technology, if they'd just stop thinking iPods and Windows are the end-all to cool.

Quote:

If this were average, viruses and trojans and whatnot all wouldn't be such a problem because people would have more common sense and technical knowledge.

Ahh... in a perfect world...

Quote:

No average 8-year-old is going to run SSH, Linux or no Linux.

They will if that's what they're taught. Educate Joe Schmoe on security, and they'll edcuate Junior. It's a chain of events.

Quote:

I think installing Firefox on a Windows-based computer and installing Linux on a fresh HDD are two very different matters. Not to mention the fact that Firefox's default theme resembles IE very, very much. "File, Edit, View, Bookmarks, Tools, Help, Address bar" etc etc -- it's all the same.

Yes, they are different, but still relevant. If someone could face having to learn something new that's not M$ without trouble, they could learn a new OS, as well. They just need to try. Lindows was a brilliant idea, other than a few moronic features like making the root account default, and no password. It was an excellent Windows replacement, though, other than that.

Quote:

Windows makes it so that there's an extra step so that Joe Schmoe won't go out and get himself piss drunk after he accidentally permanently delete his work for the past six months.

Backups, backups, backups. I went to a client's business a few days ago and discovered he was keeping all his company's information, from taxes, payroll, and clients on one computer, with no backups of any kind. Again, educate people, and this won't be a problem. If someone loses their data because they couldn't figure out the oh-so-complicated interface of Easy CD Creator, I have no pity for them. I will, however, gladly retrieve their data for them at the modest price of $1/MB, with a $100 minimum

Quote:

My point is this: Joe/Josephine Schmoe wants to watch ESPN/Smallville, he/she doesn't want to fiddle around with his computer. He doesn't want to make things work, he just wants it to work.

My point as well. Linux does "just work". I have installed countless copies of Windows, from 3.1 to XP, and I've had countless problems. Ranging from the odd, such as a Radeon 9800 Pro not being detected in XP, to the downright frustrating, like this afternoon, when on a client's computer, IE had suddenly stopped allowing him to access secure sites. To boot, Firefox wouldn't go to any sites. (Checked for proxies, ran Ad-Aware, Norton 2004 (which isn't all that bad, BTW...), re-installed IE, set security to lowest possible, then default everything, cleared all temp files, cookies, and the like, spent about 2 hours between Google and Microsoft's Q Articles... nothing. It's currently being reloaded upstairs) On the flip side, I've also installed many, many different distros of Linux, and the only major problem I've ever had was when I changed my ancient Rage 128 out for a Radeon 9800 Pro in Gentoo and had to change a few configuration files before X would run again.

Now, before you start saying I'm more advanced than Schmoe, yes, 'tis true. However, notice that the only Linux issue I had was with Gentoo, something Joe Schmoe shouldn't be installing in the first place. It's for experienced users, or diehard people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, like Welly. Bottom line, I've had more problems with Windows than with Linux. My experience level has nothing to do with the amount of problems. Anyone can crash a system, as morons around the world prove every day.

Quote:

Thus, your providings of forums and whatnot are entirely useless. Most of the Joe and Josephine Schmoes I know hardly have any interest in a forum. In several cases, they don't even know forums like this exist. Again, very rarely will Joe and Josephine go to such great lengths to find a solution. At the very most, they will pick up the phone and call tech support. When I said "community" I didn't mean a forum like this, I meant the world at large.

As I've stated, if they buy a copy, which they likely would, it has tech support. Schmoe obviously knows the concept of tech support via phone. This would be nothing new. The techie on the line will likely direct them to a forum for future reference if they run into problems, before resorting to a phone. Believe me, I frequent Linux forums. There's plenty of Schmoes on there, asking stupid questions. Usually they're answered politely, but sometimes, they just bring it upon themselves... honestly, asking what "this linux thing is" on a Linux forum is just asking to be hurt. Google, people, Google. I can't tell you how many pages there are detailing exactly what Linux is, it's mission statement, it's goals, it's history...

Quote:

Linux is not suited for the average Joe who just wants things to work.

I will have to respectfully disagree. Modern desktop distros such as Fedora Core, Mandrake, and SuSE are ready for the home market. I really challenge you to get a hold of another computer (doesn't have to be new; you could probably borrow one from a friend or something for a weekend) and install a major distro on it. Say, Mandrake. Download the ISO files, 100% free and legal, and install it. Try it for a couple of days. Use internet, email, word processing, etc.

Quote:

The majority of devices released for the consumer base are designed with Windows in mind because most of the consumer base runs Windows. If you can find a study that shows more devices support Linux than Windows, or that the majority of all products released have as much support for Linux as they do for Windows, please, by all means, show me. Until then, there is nothing you can do to refute this argument.

I'm not aware of any studies, but try this... think of a device, any device. Type it's name in at Google, plus Linux. Or Linux support, Linux driver, whatever. Or, if you do as I suggested and are running a distro on a test computer, plug it in, and see how Linux handles it. I'm telling you, Linux has as much support or more for devices than Windows. Are they OEM drivers? Usually not, no. But that doesn't really matter, the fact is, they work, and they work well. When a 10 year old ISA TV tuner card can work first try without any configuration, you know you've got a decent driver base on your hands.

Quote:

Again, the majority of devices released for the consumer base are designed with Windows in mind because most of the consumer base runs Windows. Most companies will thus prepare their technical support lines for Windows-based questions.

Very true. No debate here. However, your next point...

Quote:

If Joe goes out and buys an MP3 player that needs some sort of software for file transfers and finds out that there isn't a Linux version bundled he is most likely not going to get much help from the MP3 player companies tech support hotline. To Joe, this is trouble enough. This is reason enough for Joe to ditch Linux, and somehow, this is the point I have been trying to make that you have been avoiding all along. Yes, if you look hard enough you will in most cases resolve your difficulties. Unfortunately, not everyone is as willing as you to delve in and be proactive in finding a solution.

Linux has extremely good support for MP3 players, as I stated above. They're usually picked up as mass storage devices. I assume Schmoe knows how to drag 'n drop something. Most of the people I've met do, including non-techies. Who cares if he can't use MusicMatch? He can use CDex, which many people on this forum have said is very newbie-friendly. I've used it as well, and can attest to that. Big, colorful buttons, which Schmoe loves, and no unnecessary configuration. You can if you choose, of course, but the defaults are likely fine.

Quote:

Now, if Joe goes out and purchases a copy of Linux that comes with technical support, he can call. But if you are going to suggest to me that Joe won't be calling the Linux tech line as much as he would Windows', then I think we need to agree to disagree.

In my experience, calling Microsoft for anything is a useless waste of time, and often, money, since they usually charge you for phone support. In any case, yes, there will likely be some teething issues, since people are morons in general. My sister can figure out Linux, and she's as non-techie as they come. In fact, she likes Linux better than Windows. Whether or not that's because I install TuxRacer remains to be seen, but anyway...

Quote:

As I stated before, average Joe is not prepared or determined enough to follow up on hiccups like this. These problems can become aggravating to someone that just wants things to work.

As I said, I'm fairly certain that Joe wouldn't run into that many problems. Again, I strongly encourage you to give a distro a shot. If you really want ease of use, download Knoppix, which I linked in a previous post. You won't get to experience the ease of installing Linux, but you'll see what I mean about it's hardware detection capabilities, and you can try it out, at least.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Direct vendor support? No; very few manufacturers do that. ATI pretty much dropped Linux support, and nVidia's still so-so. However, 3rd parties still keep up the good work.

Thank you, that is an excellent example of what I was trying to get across to you. Now here’s a kicker: ATI and nVidia regularly release updated drivers for Windows. o.O

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Believe me, you can put Linux on anything, and you're very likely going to have everything autoconfigured by the time you have a desktop. Heck, I popped PHLAK into a guy's computer today to troubleshoot it, and it picked up his obscure NIC, and set up his broadband connection on it's own. It just worked. If you have an old computer sitting around, especially with older, outdated hardware, I challenge you to put XP on it, then Linux. See what works better. And don't tell me you can't figure out Knoppix; put the CD in and reboot. For one, of course, XP will run dog slow, whereas Linux will skip merrily along. For another, XP will likely not have drivers for some of the more obscure stuff. Linux will.

Why older, outdated hardware?

Because newly released hardware does not always have support for Windows. It takes time for the Linux community to put together a solution in regards to unsupported hardware. And as I stated before, and as you agreed, the market shares result in overwhelmingly stronger support from manufacturers for Windows, as opposed to Linux.

I personally don’t see why you are so adamant about this when even Knoppix’s FAQ (I use Knoppix as an example since you are the one that is so confident about its ease of use) includes this:
Q: My graphics card doesn't work!
A: It may be that very new (or exotic) graphics cards are not in the hardware database yet. These will still usually work under Linux! You can type
knoppix xmodule=vesa
or
knoppix xmodule=fbdev

at the first boot screen, and the initial un-accelerated XFree86 modes will produce a usable screen. Version 31-01-2002 and later have a frame buffer boot option (especially for older notebooks) fb800x600 (instead of typing in knoppix), which uses a resolution of 800x600 pixels in frame buffer mode. Regardless of whether these workarounds are successful or not, support can be built into the next version of KNOPPIX more quickly if the PCI numbers of the graphics card along with a description can be sent to us via mail ("lspci ; lspci -n").

A few points regarding this:

1. Knoppix admits that there is a lag time between when new graphics cards are released and when they are actually supported.

2. To suggest to me that Joe Schmoe is going to hunt up this FAQ when his graphics card doesn’t work, and then proceed to troubleshoot utilizing command lines is laughable.

Take a look at Knoppix's very own FAQ. Look at their responses to questions.

A sample:
Q: After finishing knx-hdinstall i am searching for a way to make a wheelmous work an a harddisk installation. What shall i do? Booting from CD with "knoppix wheelmouse" works fine.

A: there are two options (NOT TESTED):

* edit the following file:

"/etc/X11/XF86Config-4" (make backup before)
add the following lines to the section "InputDevice":

Option "Protocol" "IMPS/2"
Option "ZAxismapping" "4 5"
Option "Buttons" "5"

If there is an other line with an other protocol, you must delete it. BTW there are 3 sections for mice: serial, PS/2 and usb-Mice. You must find the correct Section.

* edit the "/etc/lilo.conf" file

and add "wheelmouse" in the line with "append" (there is a huge line of parameters). Then start "lilo" in a root-shell an hope there's no error message.

Right.. do you expect me to believe that Joe Schmoe will salivate at the prospect of wading through that?

I don’t know what your social circle is composed of, but you sound like a pretty bright guy who perhaps has some decently smart friends. I suspect your idea of a Joe Schmoe is much loftier than my idea, because you obviously have quite bit of confidence placed in the same guy who can’t help but click on incredibly stupid attachment gimmicks.

3. There is no assurance whatsoever that the graphics card will actually work. That’s why they want people to send in descriptions of the problems. Do you really expect Joe-Schmoe-who-wants-things-to-just-work to go through all this trouble and wait for a solution to be found before going on with his life? I think not! Again, too much trouble for a simple problem. If Joe were using Windows in this situation, there wouldn’t be a need to figure something out.

4. The workarounds (that may not work, I might add) usually sacrifice most of the features (e.g. Knoppix suggests the use of an un-accelerated mode when the whole point of buying a graphics card in the first place is to utilize it’s acceleration capabilities in the first place)

Google "Linux hardware support" and you will come up with loads and loads of databases containing references to what Linux supports. Do you see any databases containing information on what hardware Windows supports? I don't. That is because devices are put on the market to support Windows. Linux is usually either a side thought, or supported through third-party solutions. I will state again, Joe Schmoe wants things to just work. He doesn’t want to have to call tech support or visit those “geeky forums” all the time. He want plug and play. Even Knoppix admits that their offering may not offer true plug and play. Why won’t you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Most MP3 players show up as a removeable drive in Linux and Windows, IIRC, if you don't install the crap software that's usually bundled. Methinks most people can follow the instructions "Double-click on icon x".

The crap software you refer to is not always just media software to play music. It is at times necessary in the actual transfer of music over to the player itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich If Joe can't be arsed to read the manual, it's his own bloody fault. My dad was a techie at Gateway for 7 years, and I can't tell you the number of times he'd have stories of people calling in saying "I just opened this computer box up and it won't turn on." He'd answer back with, "Did you read the manual?" To which they invariably replied "No." RTFM, people. Simple as that. If you can't comprehend that, try the Quick Start guide. That at least ought to get you up and running. Sorry, but I really get pissed when people say they don't have time to read a manual. And as for when I last read a Windows manual, 98SE. I, um, don't have the manual for XP... yeah...

See, this is where I think you’ve entirely lost the point I’ve been trying to make again and again and again. In the very beginning, I stated that you cannot directly compare Microsoft with Linux given the fact that they are different breeds catering to different market personalities.

Have you ever studied economics? There is a basic principle called consumer sovereignty: give the consumer what he/she wants. Joe just wants things to work. As I’ve illustrated above using the actual FAQ supplied by the OS you suggested, things can get a lot more complicated with Linux than you have suggested in previous postings. Microsoft is a company, and as such, must cater to the want of the general market to generate revenue. Hence my original point that you cannot fault Microsoft for Windows’ increasing size -- much of it is dedicated to making the entire experience as devoid of the necessity to troubleshoot on your own as possible. Microsoft sees that this is what much of the market needs, and provides it. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t mean one OS is superior to the other, it just means that they are different breeds catering to different things (I would think this would have been immediately obvious to you, given that Linux is open-source and Windows is proprietary). Even you admitted that in many instances it is necessary for Joe Schmoe to look to multiple sources for solutions to problems that may not pop up in Windows. I know of several friends that haven’t even learned that Google can help a lot in troubleshooting difficulties.

For some reason, you are skewing your responses to defend Linux when I have done nothing to suggest its inferiority. All I am saying is:
- Windows is in essence more Joe Schmoe friendly
- The market share has created a situation where it is harder for Linux to offer the same level of compatibility/support for the end user as Windows does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Of course it's not. I was just saying, though, it's not impossible for kids to learn technology, if they'd just stop thinking iPods and Windows are the end-all to cool.

Glad you agree. So why does your idea of Joe Schmoe suddenly become much loftier once you move on to the comparison with Linux? There is inconsistency here.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Ahh... in a perfect world...

Same as above, there is inconsistency here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich They will if that's what they're taught. Educate Joe Schmoe on security, and they'll edcuate Junior. It's a chain of events.

Again, consumer sovereignty. To cater to wants that the general market does not have is poor business strategy. Microsoft is a company, you cannot fault them for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Yes, they are different, but still relevant. If someone could face having to learn something new that's not M$ without trouble, they could learn a new OS, as well. They just need to try. Lindows was a brilliant idea, other than a few moronic features like making the root account default, and no password. It was an excellent Windows replacement, though, other than that.

Sorry, Joe Schmoe doesn’t want to try. He doesn’t see the need to try. Windows works just fine, why spend the extra effort? Again, we’re talking about different breeds catering to different personalities here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Backups, backups, backups. I went to a client's business a few days ago and discovered he was keeping all his company's information, from taxes, payroll, and clients on one computer, with no backups of any kind. Again, educate people, and this won't be a problem. If someone loses their data because they couldn't figure out the oh-so-complicated interface of Easy CD Creator, I have no pity for them. I will, however, gladly retrieve their data for them at the modest price of $1/MB, with a $100 minimum

There has been education. It’s not working all that great, considering all the commonplace problems that still reappear again and again. I think this should say something about Joe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich My point as well. Linux does "just work". I have installed countless copies of Windows, from 3.1 to XP, and I've had countless problems. Ranging from the odd, such as a Radeon 9800 Pro not being detected in XP, to the downright frustrating, like this afternoon, when on a client's computer, IE had suddenly stopped allowing him to access secure sites. To boot, Firefox wouldn't go to any sites. (Checked for proxies, ran Ad-Aware, Norton 2004 (which isn't all that bad, BTW...), re-installed IE, set security to lowest possible, then default everything, cleared all temp files, cookies, and the like, spent about 2 hours between Google and Microsoft's Q Articles... nothing. It's currently being reloaded upstairs) On the flip side, I've also installed many, many different distros of Linux, and the only major problem I've ever had was when I changed my ancient Rage 128 out for a Radeon 9800 Pro in Gentoo and had to change a few configuration files before X would run again.

Do you expect me to believe that Joe is going to “change a few configuration files”? I don’t think so.

At least Windows problems can be fixed without resorting to configuration files.

And no, it's not just Gentoo that may require this level of tweaking -- again, you presented Knoppix as a very feasible solution for Joe Schmoe, I provided you their FAQ which hints otherwise.

Now, before you start saying I'm more advanced than Schmoe, yes, 'tis true. However, notice that the only Linux issue I had was with Gentoo, something Joe Schmoe shouldn't be installing in the first place. It's for experienced users, or diehard people who don't mind getting their hands dirty, like Welly. Bottom line, I've had more problems with Windows than with Linux. My experience level has nothing to do with the amount of problems. Anyone can crash a system, as morons around the world prove every day.

Personal experience means very little here, we are talking about the market in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich As I've stated, if they buy a copy, which they likely would, it has tech support. Schmoe obviously knows the concept of tech support via phone. This would be nothing new. The techie on the line will likely direct them to a forum for future reference if they run into problems, before resorting to a phone. Believe me, I frequent Linux forums. There's plenty of Schmoes on there, asking stupid questions. Usually they're answered politely, but sometimes, they just bring it upon themselves... honestly, asking what "this linux thing is" on a Linux forum is just asking to be hurt. Google, people, Google. I can't tell you how many pages there are detailing exactly what Linux is, it's mission statement, it's goals, it's history...

There is a difference between a newbie and a Schmoe, please remember that.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I will have to respectfully disagree. Modern desktop distros such as Fedora Core, Mandrake, and SuSE are ready for the home market. I really challenge you to get a hold of another computer (doesn't have to be new; you could probably borrow one from a friend or something for a weekend) and install a major distro on it. Say, Mandrake. Download the ISO files, 100% free and legal, and install it. Try it for a couple of days. Use internet, email, word processing, etc.

UIUC has several computing centers that offer a plethora of operating systems be it Windows XP, Solaris, RedHat, etc etc. I can definitely see a Schmoe having difficulties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich I'm not aware of any studies, but try this... think of a device, any device. Type it's name in at Google, plus Linux. Or Linux support, Linux driver, whatever. Or, if you do as I suggested and are running a distro on a test computer, plug it in, and see how Linux handles it. I'm telling you, Linux has as much support or more for devices than Windows. Are they OEM drivers? Usually not, no. But that doesn't really matter, the fact is, they work, and they work well. When a 10 year old ISA TV tuner card can work first try without any configuration, you know you've got a decent driver base on your hands.

Refer to above Knoppix FAQ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Very true. No debate here. However, your next point...

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Linux has extremely good support for MP3 players, as I stated above. They're usually picked up as mass storage devices. I assume Schmoe knows how to drag 'n drop something. Most of the people I've met do, including non-techies. Who cares if he can't use MusicMatch? He can use CDex, which many people on this forum have said is very newbie-friendly. I've used it as well, and can attest to that. Big, colorful buttons, which Schmoe loves, and no unnecessary configuration. You can if you choose, of course, but the defaults are likely fine.

Question: Do you realize that there is an overwhelming number of people that use Windows Media Player because it is bundled with Windows? Do you further realize that these people cannot be bothered to look up alternatives?

To suggest that Schmoe will suddenly become proactive is laughable. Again, Schmoe wants things to work, he doesn’t want to make things work. As stated in my very first post regarding this entire Windows vs. Linux exchange, Microsoft does not offer just operating systems, they offer solutions to cater to market demand. It’s consumer sovereignty at it’s finest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich In my experience, calling Microsoft for anything is a useless waste of time, and often, money, since they usually charge you for phone support. In any case, yes, there will likely be some teething issues, since people are morons in general. My sister can figure out Linux, and she's as non-techie as they come. In fact, she likes Linux better than Windows. Whether or not that's because I install TuxRacer remains to be seen, but anyway...

Sorry, I don't think your sister is "as non-techie as they come".

Again, my original posting clarifies this:
“If Joe goes out and buys an MP3 player that needs some sort of software for file transfers and finds out that there isn't a Linux version bundled he is most likely not going to get much help from the MP3 player companies tech support hotline. To Joe, this is trouble enough. This is reason enough for Joe to ditch Linux, and somehow, this is the point I have been trying to make that you have been avoiding all along. Yes, if you look hard enough you will in most cases resolve your difficulties. Unfortunately, not everyone is as willing as you to delve in and be proactive in finding a solution.”

 

[psychogentoo]

Oh boy. A nice heated discussion, a bit off topic but I’ll bite.

Here are my 2 cents. Even with the distros such as Mandrake, RH/Fedora, and SuSe making things easier for installs, and even with the advancements in window managers (KDE and Gnome), Linux/Unix has a long way to go in capturing the market for the Joe Schmoe user.

The average user has been already exposed to the Windows paradigm to switch from that its going to take time and a lot of reading get up to speed. Why would someone do this when they can just use windows? I highly doubt that the average user will change to Linux/Unix for their home desktop based on stability and security alone. And for those who are switching now, they are NOT average users!!!

Another reason for not switching is software. If a Joe user already has a bunch of money invested in software, they're not likely to switch. Sure OpenOffice is great but there are incompatibilities between the MS Office suite. Sure this could be the fault of MS for not sticking to or changing their standards. In any case, this will cause some headaches for the Joe user who just wants stuff to work. Another example would be someone who is familiar with Photoshop. Sure you can do the editing using Gimp but do you think the Joe user will even know what Gimp is? <insert Pulp Fiction reference here>

If the same Joe user goes to the store and buys an iPod, good luck in getting him to download something from sourceforge to get the iPod working with Linux.

IMO, Mac OS X has done what the Linux community has been trying to do for the last several years. That is to bridge the "ease-of-use" of a good window manager with Unix stability and security. Hopefully Linux will be up to par in the near future. I really hope that MS gets the idea that stability and security is important but I'm not holding my breath.

The Apple platform has its drawbacks just like Linux/Unix and Windows. You’re locked into their hardware as well as the need to repurchase software. As far as 3rd party hardware peripherals, your choice is limited and may have to pay more for the same thing however, I would much rather pay a little more to use a stable and secure environment. The average user will probably will not want to pay more for whats perceived as the “same thing”. This goes back to my initial statement of the average user who will not switch the OS for security and stability alone.

However, if an average user was to switch to Mac OS X, I believe it will be a less of a shock than switching to linux. Since in the Apple hardware is very specific, the developers of the OS don’t have to deal with the MS paradigm of writing the OS for the “lowest common denominator”. This allows for a more “ease-of-use” on the user end. The more specific the platform is, tighter the code is going to be, at least in theory anyways.

Just as a background. I'm an avid Gentoo Linux user and have been a Linux/Unix user for 9 years. However, now my primary workstation is a Powerbook running Mac OS X. This just my opinion, take it for what it is.

 

[ReDVsion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wallijonn ReDVision, are you a zombie? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06...an_spam_study/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/30/spam_biz/

No, but I think a good firewall is more invaluable than an anti-virus program. Preventative measures are always best. Anti-virus programs are merely damage control.

Oh, and having an AV program isn't enough, you have to be competent enough to update it, too (I used to work at a computer repair shop, noone knew how to do this). Plus I consider adware/malware to be more of a concern nowadays than viruses, at least for the average user.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bLueoNioN Thank you, that is an excellent example of what I was trying to get across to you. Now here’s a kicker: ATI and nVidia regularly release updated drivers for Windows. o.O

Erm, What? I just pointed out that there's usually better driver support in Linux for a wider range of hardware than for Windows. Who gives a rat's if it's from the manufacturer or not? Heck, most of the drivers I'm running are 3rd party. I don't like ATI's stock, so I use Omega. (yeah, OK, so they're just highly tuned ATI...) My SB Live! is rather sucky, even for gaming, so I run KX Drivers for that. Suprise, they work better than the originals, and much better than M$'s XP-bundled ones.

Quote:

Why older, outdated hardware?

To better show off the fact that Linux runs on a wider range of equipment than Windows, and also the fact that XP is unlikely to have drivers for older stuff, whereas Linux will. If you want to use a new computer, that's fine with me. Linux will run that just as easily.

Quote:

I personally don’t see why you are so adamant about this when even Knoppix’s FAQ (I use Knoppix as an example since you are the one that is so confident about its ease of use) includes this: ... My graphics card doesn't work!

First, anyone running that new of a graphics card is a gamer. There's no other reason (other than CAD, perhaps, but Schmoes don't do CAD work) to do so. Linux is not a gaming OS. Not yet, anyway. WINE and WineX can only do so much. However, something of note is many game makers are now releasing native Linux versions along with the Windows. Unreal Tournament 2004 has this, as does Doom III. Also of interest, you usually get a hefty framerate boost by running in Linux, due to it's lower overhead. But I'm going OT now. Yes, very new cards may not work fully in Linux. But it's not usually more than a week or two before there's drivers. What's more, I distinctly remember having troubles with my 9800 Pro in Windows (and many more people reported this as well on various forums). The 4.7 Catalysts just refused to even boot. I had to run outdated drivers until I could get newer ones to work, which wasn't until 4.9.

Quote:

Right.. do you expect me to believe that Joe Schmoe will salivate at the prospect of wading through that?

Knoppix works out of the box on probably 95% of machines. I've seen it run on everything from a PII 266 to a fully pimped out P4 3GHz. And AMD, for that matter. Might I remind you Windows is also not without it's share of problems. What's more, there usually aren't any configuration files you can go manually edit if a driver doesn't work in Windows. XP is especially bad at this. A driver works, or it doesn't. Worse, it being based on the 2K kernel, there's no DOS backdoor to fix it.

Quote:

I don’t know what your social circle is composed of, but you sound like a pretty bright guy who perhaps has some decently smart friends. I suspect your idea of a Joe Schmoe is much loftier than my idea, because you obviously have quite bit of confidence placed in the same guy who can’t help but click on incredibly stupid attachment gimmicks.

Thanks

As for my view of Schmoe, you may be right. I'm just having trouble comprehending that someone could be that stupid that they won't even crack open a manual. I got off the phone with a client a few minutes ago because his freshly installed copy of WinME (yeah, I know... but hey, he requested it, and paid me) didn't have sound. I was just over there, and yes, it did. WinAMP wasn't working for him, though. So I told him to go download the new version of WinAMP, uninstall the old one, and install the new one. He managed to do that without any help from me other than telling him the URL for the site. And he's definitely not tech savvy. Surely most people can figure out installation of a program. What's so much harder about reading a manual?

Quote:

The workarounds (that may not work, I might add) usually sacrifice most of the features (e.g. Knoppix suggests the use of an un-accelerated mode when the whole point of buying a graphics card in the first place is to utilize it’s acceleration capabilities in the first place)

As I mentioned, there's a very short downtime before drivers are released. But yes, you are correct. New adopters of technology, and that includes anything, are usually guinea pigs, whether they like it or not.

Quote:

Google "Linux hardware support" and you will come up with loads and loads of databases containing references to what Linux supports. Do you see any databases containing information on what hardware Windows supports? I don't. That is because devices are put on the market to support Windows. Linux is usually either a side thought, or supported through third-party solutions. I will state again, Joe Schmoe wants things to just work. He doesn’t want to have to call tech support or visit those “geeky forums” all the time. He want plug and play. Even Knoppix admits that their offering may not offer true plug and play. Why won’t you?

Windows has such universal support because hardware manufacturers have been increasingly relying on it to handle things they don't want to deal with on their own chips. Winmodems are a perfect example of this. They've only recently gotten support in Linux. It used to be, a modem had everything it needed to communicate onboard. They worked very well, and were as quick as you could expect from a non-broadband solution. Then manufacturers got the bright idea to let Windows handle everything except the phone jack. As such, products got worse (even in Windows, mind you. Winmodems are the devil), Linux support became non-existant, but since the modem makers profit margins were up, who cares?

As for Schmoe, again, I think you may be right in that I have a lofty view of mankind in general. I'm just having a hard time comprehending someone so hopelessly inept.

Quote:

The crap software you refer to is not always just media software to play music. It is at times necessary in the actual transfer of music over to the player itself.

I personally refuse to buy any product that requires propietary software to work. Drivers are one thing, but I don't want to have to use Creative's (as an example) bloatware just to get music. In any case, I'm fairly certain Linux still manages to pull most anything up as a mass storage device.

Quote:

For some reason, you are skewing your responses to defend Linux when I have done nothing to suggest its inferiority. All I am saying is: - Windows is in essence more Joe Schmoe friendly - The market share has created a situation where it is harder for Linux to offer the same level of compatibility/support for the end user as Windows does.

I tend to get overly aggressive when anything comparing Windows to Linux is brought up. My apologies.

I am curious, though, why you say it's 'harder for Linux to offer the same level of compatibility/support...'. How so? It's already come along well enough that it's a viable Windows replacement, if the person if willing to spend some time. (I'm again thinking you're right; perhaps Schmoe is more technially inept than I thought) It has tech support available if you purchase it, or forums to answer any question. Again, with some effort, you can have a perfectly working desktop.

As for inconsistencies in my posts, I cite Linux zealotry and a late night. Sorry if I came off wonky.

Quote:

Microsoft is a company, you cannot fault them for this.

Aye, I can. They're greedy bastards and deserve all the hell people care to give them

Quote:

There has been education. It’s not working all that great, considering all the commonplace problems that still reappear again and again. I think this should say something about Joe.

Actually, I thought about that when posting my previous, but decided there was no way Joe was that stupid... again, I think you may be right about my lofty views.

Quote:

Do you expect me to believe that Joe is going to “change a few configuration files”? I don’t think so. At least Windows problems can be fixed without resorting to configuration files.

Changing the words 'rage128' over to 'radeon' in xorg.conf is much easier than the hell I went through with my Radeon in XP, believe me.

As for your Windows argument... yeah, if you consider reformatting a fix. The problem with Windows, at least XP, is that it's been dumbed down, and never tells you what the problem actually is. If you're lucky, you can Google the error number and hope that tells you something, but usually, you're relying on past experience and guessing. In the case of Linux and my graphics card, it told me exactly what was the problem, what file contained the problem, and even what line the problem was on. As I said, I changed 'rage128' over to 'radeon', and all was well. With Windows, I tried at least 6 different Catalyst versions and rebooted countless times, did registry hacking, etc., before I could get it to work.

Quote:

Question: Do you realize that there is an overwhelming number of people that use Windows Media Player because it is bundled with Windows? Do you further realize that these people cannot be bothered to look up alternatives?

Again, I'm finding it hard to believe that people are that technically inept and/or lazy that they can't find software on the internet. If this is so, all hope in mankind is now lost, and I'll shut up.

Quote:

Sorry, I don't think your sister is "as non-techie as they come".

I define non-techie as someone who knows how to turn a computer on, log into Windows (but not create an account), sometimes install games or applications, use the internet, word processing, and music. My sister fits this category. Please define yours if it is different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pyschogentoo Another reason for not switching is software. If a Joe user already has a bunch of money invested in software, they're not likely to switch. Sure OpenOffice is great but there are incompatibilities between the MS Office suite. Sure this could be the fault of MS for not sticking to or changing their standards. In any case, this will cause some headaches for the Joe user who just wants stuff to work. Another example would be someone who is familiar with Photoshop. Sure you can do the editing using Gimp but do you think the Joe user will even know what Gimp is? <insert Pulp Fiction reference here> If the same Joe user goes to the store and buys an iPod, good luck in getting him to download something from sourceforge to get the iPod working with Linux.

This is true, and one of the main things holding Linux back. However, I'm curious as to these inconsistencies between OpenOffice and M$ Office. I've used both, and have carted every type of file possible between 'em, and never run into a problem. I consider OpenOffice to be one of the shining highlights of open source software, actually, and it's usually the conversation starter when I bring up open source with a client. That, or Firefox.

 

[psychogentoo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich This is true, and one of the main things holding Linux back. However, I'm curious as to these inconsistencies between OpenOffice and M$ Office. I've used both, and have carted every type of file possible between 'em, and never run into a problem. I consider OpenOffice to be one of the shining highlights of open source software, actually, and it's usually the conversation starter when I bring up open source with a client. That, or Firefox.

There are numerous issues with formatting still. You don't have to take my word for it, check openoffice.org and look at the bug tracker. I've encountered some of them when sending back documents to clients, which was originally created in MS Office, edited in OpenOffice later to find out that OpenOffice has messed up some stuff for MS Office. The point I was trying to get at is that general users don't want to deal with this type of inconsistencies.

Firefox is a great browser and I'm very glad that people are taking notice, thanks to Microsoft.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Erm, What? I just pointed out that there's usually better driver support in Linux for a wider range of hardware than for Windows. Who gives a rat's if it's from the manufacturer or not? Heck, most of the drivers I'm running are 3rd party. I don't like ATI's stock, so I use Omega. (yeah, OK, so they're just highly tuned ATI...) My SB Live! is rather sucky, even for gaming, so I run KX Drivers for that. Suprise, they work better than the originals, and much better than M$'s XP-bundled ones.

Who gives a rat? Joe does. Just take a look at the people who go after third-party drivers. Most of the Joes and Josephines I know have no concept of what Omega or KX drivers are, nor do they care. I've pointed friends to better revisions of drivers, pointed out the advantages -- they had no interest in changing over. They just want the device to work with whatever CD it came with, end of story. Again, they just want things to work, even barely, with minimal assistance. Linux forces you to look to alternative solutions more often than Windows does, again, because of market conditions. The Schmoes have no interest in going through this process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich To better show off the fact that Linux runs on a wider range of equipment than Windows, and also the fact that XP is unlikely to have drivers for older stuff, whereas Linux will. If you want to use a new computer, that's fine with me. Linux will run that just as easily.

One of your first examples had to do with the ISA slot. Let us not kid ourselves, the ISA slot has been completely phased out. Does Joe go out and buy ISA cards, hoping to look for compatability? I don't think so. When I'm talking about hardware, I'm talking about items currently on market. This includes scanners, cameras, MP3 players, webcams, etc etc. Knowing the sheer number of products that entails, you cannot deny that there will be spots Linux has trouble covering. What if Joe goes out and buys a product made by an obscure company that very few people in the Linux community have come across? I would imagine he's going to have a problem on his hands. Now were he running Windows, he would not have such a problem, because the driver CD bundled with the product would most certainly have Windows drivers. Again, market conditions and consumer sovereignty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich First, anyone running that new of a graphics card is a gamer. There's no other reason (other than CAD, perhaps, but Schmoes don't do CAD work) to do so. Linux is not a gaming OS. Not yet, anyway. WINE and WineX can only do so much. However, something of note is many game makers are now releasing native Linux versions along with the Windows. Unreal Tournament 2004 has this, as does Doom III. Also of interest, you usually get a hefty framerate boost by running in Linux, due to it's lower overhead. But I'm going OT now. Yes, very new cards may not work fully in Linux. But it's not usually more than a week or two before there's drivers. What's more, I distinctly remember having troubles with my 9800 Pro in Windows (and many more people reported this as well on various forums). The 4.7 Catalysts just refused to even boot. I had to run outdated drivers until I could get newer ones to work, which wasn't until 4.9.

"Linux is not a gaming OS"?

Right, so first you tell me Linux is ready to be a "Windows replacement" and now halfway through it's suddenly not yet ready to be a gaming OS?

Inconsistency, my dear friend, inconsistency.

As for the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro problem, it is known that the problem was on ATI's end -- drivers were a universal concern with that specific card, it has nothing to do with the Windows platform. The issues have since been resolved by ATI (you state that you had problems with the Cat 4.7s -- the 9800 Pro was used mostly with pre-3.1 Cats, so if you're still having problems, you are in the severe minority).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Knoppix works out of the box on probably 95% of machines. I've seen it run on everything from a PII 266 to a fully pimped out P4 3GHz. And AMD, for that matter. Might I remind you Windows is also not without it's share of problems. What's more, there usually aren't any configuration files you can go manually edit if a driver doesn't work in Windows. XP is especially bad at this. A driver works, or it doesn't. Worse, it being based on the 2K kernel, there's no DOS backdoor to fix it.

So first you present Knoppix as a Linux solution any Schmoe can handle, and now you say it works about 95% of the time. That doesn't sound reassuring, not to mention consistent with what you last said, to me. Can you imagine the outcry if Windows refused to install properly on 5% of the machines out there? With the dominance Microsoft has over the consumer market, we are talking million and millions of failed installations here. With these numbers in mind, I would say Linux is most certainly not ready to become a "Windows replacement".

As for Windows not allowing you to manually edit if a driver doesn't work:
1. That is not true. If drivers couldn't be tweaked, how are Omega and KX drivers released? Furthermore, you have the registry and component files (e.g. *.inf files) at your disposal in Windows.
2. None of that matters! Microsoft has made Windows so user-friendly that everything is done through a simple, easy to understand interface. In addition, due to market conditions, every device marketed at the consumer comes with Windows support. Devices are put through extensive testing to determine compatability with Windows machines, and then released bundled with Windows drivers. Linux does not benefit from this testing -- the Linux community is often left to it's own means in developing a solution. In many cases, partial solutions will be put up (e.g. the device will work, but barely and with certain features do not function correctly)

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Thanks As for my view of Schmoe, you may be right. I'm just having trouble comprehending that someone could be that stupid that they won't even crack open a manual. I got off the phone with a client a few minutes ago because his freshly installed copy of WinME (yeah, I know... but hey, he requested it, and paid me) didn't have sound. I was just over there, and yes, it did. WinAMP wasn't working for him, though. So I told him to go download the new version of WinAMP, uninstall the old one, and install the new one. He managed to do that without any help from me other than telling him the URL for the site. And he's definitely not tech savvy. Surely most people can figure out installation of a program. What's so much harder about reading a manual?

A lot of people just aren't as interested in tech and figuring things out as you are. There's nothing wrong with that, we all just enjoy different things. I think a lot of problems we are having with proper communication stems from the fact that you are pulling yourself too much into things. You cannot relate yourself to Joe, or think about what you would do, because seeing as how knowledgeable you sound, you are probably far away from Joe as far can be. It puts an improper spin on things.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich As I mentioned, there's a very short downtime before drivers are released. But yes, you are correct. New adopters of technology, and that includes anything, are usually guinea pigs, whether they like it or not.

Actually, I disagree -- it's not always a very short downtime. For example, you can count on ATI and nVidia to release new revisions every few weeks as surely as the sun rises and sets. There are a lot of tweaks made in these revisions that will not be reflected in Linux releases. This same concept can be applied to many other devices.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Windows has such universal support because hardware manufacturers have been increasingly relying on it to handle things they don't want to deal with on their own chips. Winmodems are a perfect example of this. They've only recently gotten support in Linux. It used to be, a modem had everything it needed to communicate onboard. They worked very well, and were as quick as you could expect from a non-broadband solution. Then manufacturers got the bright idea to let Windows handle everything except the phone jack. As such, products got worse (even in Windows, mind you. Winmodems are the devil), Linux support became non-existant, but since the modem makers profit margins were up, who cares?

Not true. If Windows had only 5% of the market share the whole time, you could bet that support would be nothing like it is now.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich As for Schmoe, again, I think you may be right in that I have a lofty view of mankind in general. I'm just having a hard time comprehending someone so hopelessly inept.

A lot of people just aren't as interested in tech and figuring things out as you are. There's nothing wrong with that, we all just enjoy different things. I think a lot of problems we are having with proper communication stems from the fact that you are pulling yourself too much into things. You cannot relate yourself to Joe, or think about what you would do, because seeing as how knowledgeable you sound, you are probably far away from Joe as far can be. It puts an improper spin on things.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I personally refuse to buy any product that requires propietary software to work. Drivers are one thing, but I don't want to have to use Creative's (as an example) bloatware just to get music. In any case, I'm fairly certain Linux still manages to pull most anything up as a mass storage device.

It's good to know that you know to stay away, but the problem here again is that Joe won't be able to tell the difference between any of this.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I tend to get overly aggressive when anything comparing Windows to Linux is brought up. My apologies.

No apology necessary, it's just frustrating for me because it seems you're glossing over a lot of what I'm saying.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I am curious, though, why you say it's 'harder for Linux to offer the same level of compatibility/support...'. How so? It's already come along well enough that it's a viable Windows replacement, if the person if willing to spend some time. (I'm again thinking you're right; perhaps Schmoe is more technially inept than I thought) It has tech support available if you purchase it, or forums to answer any question. Again, with some effort, you can have a perfectly working desktop.

There is inconsistency here on your part. Linux is now a "Windows replacement" again? You just stated above that "Linux is not a gaming OS".

And in this case, since there is a time lag, it has nothing to do with how much time you're wiling to spend. It has to do with market conditions.

Your second section makes a lot more sense. Linux can definitely work given some time. But that's not what we've been debating over, are we? We started out with whether or not Linux is a feasible solution for Joe Schmoe. I think we agree now that it's not.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich As for inconsistencies in my posts, I cite Linux zealotry and a late night. Sorry if I came off wonky.

Don't worry about it, I think you're a really cool guy and would love to meet you someday at a Head-Fi gathering =)

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Aye, I can. They're greedy bastards and deserve all the hell people care to give them

I would defend Microsoft, but it would likely start another exchange, so I won't

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Actually, I thought about that when posting my previous, but decided there was no way Joe was that stupid... again, I think you may be right about my lofty views.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Changing the words 'rage128' over to 'radeon' in xorg.conf is much easier than the hell I went through with my Radeon in XP, believe me.

If you are having problems with the 4.7 Cats when the card was released pre-3.1, you are in the far minority.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich As for your Windows argument... yeah, if you consider reformatting a fix. The problem with Windows, at least XP, is that it's been dumbed down, and never tells you what the problem actually is. If you're lucky, you can Google the error number and hope that tells you something, but usually, you're relying on past experience and guessing. In the case of Linux and my graphics card, it told me exactly what was the problem, what file contained the problem, and even what line the problem was on. As I said, I changed 'rage128' over to 'radeon', and all was well. With Windows, I tried at least 6 different Catalyst versions and rebooted countless times, did registry hacking, etc., before I could get it to work.

Where the problem is, what file contains the problem, and what line the problem is on is absolutely meaningless to Joe. It's gibberish. It's headache-inducing material. If you had to go into the registry to make it work, you must realize that you were in the far minority.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Again, I'm finding it hard to believe that people are that technically inept and/or lazy that they can't find software on the internet. If this is so, all hope in mankind is now lost, and I'll shut up.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I define non-techie as someone who knows how to turn a computer on, log into Windows (but not create an account), sometimes install games or applications, use the internet, word processing, and music. My sister fits this category. Please define yours if it is different.

My idea of a non-techie is the exact same as the Schmoes we have been talking about this whole time.

 

[Stephonovich]

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Originally Posted by bLueoNioN Who gives a rat? Joe does. Just take a look at the people who go after third-party drivers. Most of the Joes and Josephines I know have no concept of what Omega or KX drivers are, nor do they care.

Except in this case, the 3rd party drivers come bundled with Linux. To someone just installing a device, it'd be just like Windows; the drivers just install. You don't have to seperately download them or anything.

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This includes scanners, cameras, MP3 players, webcams, etc etc. Knowing the sheer number of products that entails, you cannot deny that there will be spots Linux has trouble covering. What if Joe goes out and buys a product made by an obscure company that very few people in the Linux community have come across?

I don't have much experience with any of those, but from what I've read (and friend's experiences), usually Linux doesn't have much trouble getting a driver that will work with them. Cameras usually show up as a mass storage device (my Olympus C-4040 does in Windows, as well), printers have pretty basic driver needs, scanners as well... The thing is, most products, especially cheaper ones, use the same chipset. Printers and the like not so much, but things like webcams and the like generally do. So there can be one driver for a whole bunch of 'em. A wonderful example is wireless cards. Most of them use the Prism2 chipset. As such, Linux just needs one driver for pretty much all cards.

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Right, so first you tell me Linux is ready to be a "Windows replacement" and now halfway through it's suddenly not yet ready to be a gaming OS?

I dunno. It depends on the person's needs. I know several people who don't do gaming at all, or they don't do PC gaming. Perhaps "Productivity OS Replacement" would be better.

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As for the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro problem, it is known that the problem was on ATI's end -- drivers were a universal concern with that specific card, it has nothing to do with the Windows platform. The issues have since been resolved by ATI (you state that you had problems with the Cat 4.7s -- the 9800 Pro was used mostly with pre-3.1 Cats, so if you're still having problems, you are in the severe minority).

I got my 9800 Pro when the XT was just coming out. I subscribe to the "Buy last-gen equipment" school of thought. If I buy what was top of the line a month ago, the price is cut in half, and it still runs games fine. Anyway, no, the 4.9s fixed the problem. Rather, Omega's .76 drivers, although I imagine the stock 4.9s would work as well.

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So first you present Knoppix as a Linux solution any Schmoe can handle, and now you say it works about 95% of the time. That doesn't sound reassuring, not to mention consistent with what you last said, to me. Can you imagine the outcry if Windows refused to install properly on 5% of the machines out there?

95% is very good for an OS. You can't tell me Windows works 100% of the time. XP is better than 9x, granted, but you can still run into issues. I point to this as such an example. What was M$ saying, again? 3 out of 10 not working when SP2 was installed? That'd be a 70% success rate. Hmm...

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As for Windows not allowing you to manually edit if a driver doesn't work: 1. That is not true. If drivers couldn't be tweaked, how are Omega and KX drivers released? Furthermore, you have the registry and component files (e.g. *.inf files) at your disposal in Windows. 2. None of that matters! Microsoft has made Windows so user-friendly that everything is done through a simple, easy to understand interface. In addition, due to market conditions, every device marketed at the consumer comes with Windows support. Devices are put through extensive testing to determine compatability with Windows machines, and then released bundled with Windows drivers. Linux does not benefit from this testing -- the Linux community is often left to it's own means in developing a solution. In many cases, partial solutions will be put up (e.g. the device will work, but barely and with certain features do not function correctly)

1. .inf files aren't the same as being able to manually edit the driver itself. Linux allows you to do this. The registry isn't bad, but isn't the end-all.
2. Devices are put through extensive testing, eh? My arse. They plug 'em in and make sure Windows picks them up. Why else would they release firmware and driver patches right after they're released? Linux, OTOH, due to it's DIY developing process, undergoes very rigorous testing to make sure it all works. Otherwise, how would they be able to write the drivers?

I do realize this isn't relevant to the Schmoe bit, though.

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You cannot relate yourself to Joe, or think about what you would do, because seeing as how knowledgeable you sound, you are probably far away from Joe as far can be. It puts an improper spin on things.

Quite possible. I find it difficult to get into the mindset where I don't know what a file is. (I had a client ask me the other day what a file was. Startled me, and I had to struggle to explain something I considered second nature)

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There is inconsistency here on your part. Linux is now a "Windows replacement" again? You just stated above that "Linux is not a gaming OS".

It depends what you do. Most people I know (again, this may be a case of my social circle being quite more tech savvy than Schmoe's) agree that for productivity software, Linux is a wonderful replacement, and that for gaming, it's best to dual-boot.

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Where the problem is, what file contains the problem, and what line the problem is on is absolutely meaningless to Joe. It's gibberish. It's headache-inducing material. If you had to go into the registry to make it work, you must realize that you were in the far minority.

Slightly OT, but I'm wondering what Schmoe would have done in my case. For one, he likely wouldn't have created a Restore Point prior to installing the drivers. (a bad experience a few years back taught me that) So he'd be hosed from the start. Second, he wouldn't know what Safe Mode was, which was the only thing that saved me. Third, he wouldn't think to roll back his drivers until he found one that worked. I wonder what ATI's tech support would have done. Probably had him re-format his computer.

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My idea of a non-techie is the exact same as the Schmoes we have been talking about this whole time.

Methinks herein lies the problem.... My view of Schmoe is what I described. They know at least what a hard drive is, what a virus is, they know to install most apps so long as it doesn't give them errors, they know to reboot if something screws up...

Sorry for the shorter responses, anyway. I have to get to bed, as I'm heading to D.C. tomorrow for a trip. Hopefully I'll have Wi-Fi access there. If so, I'll continue the thread from there.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Except in this case, the 3rd party drivers come bundled with Linux. To someone just installing a device, it'd be just like Windows; the drivers just install. You don't have to seperately download them or anything.

There will be instances in which Joe will have to go online and search for drivers because they are neither bundled with the OS or the product (again, market conditions). You cannot deny that.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I don't have much experience with any of those, but from what I've read (and friend's experiences), usually Linux doesn't have much trouble getting a driver that will work with them. Cameras usually show up as a mass storage device (my Olympus C-4040 does in Windows, as well), printers have pretty basic driver needs, scanners as well... The thing is, most products, especially cheaper ones, use the same chipset. Printers and the like not so much, but things like webcams and the like generally do. So there can be one driver for a whole bunch of 'em. A wonderful example is wireless cards. Most of them use the Prism2 chipset. As such, Linux just needs one driver for pretty much all cards.

I think you are missing the point here. Joe can get the drivers from two easy sources:
1. Windows XP
2. Provided CD

Joe on Linux, on the other hand, may have to go looking elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I dunno. It depends on the person's needs. I know several people who don't do gaming at all, or they don't do PC gaming. Perhaps "Productivity OS Replacement" would be better.

I don't see any such problems with Windows XP -- again, my original point: Microsoft develops Windows to support the general crowd.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I got my 9800 Pro when the XT was just coming out. I subscribe to the "Buy last-gen equipment" school of thought. If I buy what was top of the line a month ago, the price is cut in half, and it still runs games fine. Anyway, no, the 4.9s fixed the problem. Rather, Omega's .76 drivers, although I imagine the stock 4.9s would work as well.

I'm glad your problem is fixed

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich 95% is very good for an OS. You can't tell me Windows works 100% of the time. XP is better than 9x, granted, but you can still run into issues. I point to this as such an example. What was M$ saying, again? 3 out of 10 not working when SP2 was installed? That'd be a 70% success rate. Hmm...

1. The reported issues have since been addressed directly by the manufacturers of the products themselves through patches and newer revisions.

2. It is not a 70% success rate. It is a 90+% success rate. The difference between SP2 and Linux's success rate is that while you can choose to not install SP2 and continue to successfully use SP1 while you update, the people locked out of Knoppix are locked out, period. Which one would you prefer? I would certainly prefer the first.

Windows is not perfect. I never hinted otherwise. I simply stated and defended my perception that Windows is better suited for Joe Schmoe, which you repeatedly denied until this point. I think we are perfectly in agreement now

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich I do realize this isn't relevant to the Schmoe bit, though.

Then it is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Quite possible. I find it difficult to get into the mindset where I don't know what a file is. (I had a client ask me the other day what a file was. Startled me, and I had to struggle to explain something I considered second nature)

LOL I can imagine your surprise. I'd venture a guess and say there are even worse out there, just you wait

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich It depends what you do. Most people I know (again, this may be a case of my social circle being quite more tech savvy than Schmoe's) agree that for productivity software, Linux is a wonderful replacement, and that for gaming, it's best to dual-boot.

I don't see any such problems with Windows XP -- again, my original point: Microsoft develops Windows to support the general crowd.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Slightly OT, but I'm wondering what Schmoe would have done in my case. For one, he likely wouldn't have created a Restore Point prior to installing the drivers. (a bad experience a few years back taught me that) So he'd be hosed from the start. Second, he wouldn't know what Safe Mode was, which was the only thing that saved me. Third, he wouldn't think to roll back his drivers until he found one that worked. I wonder what ATI's tech support would have done. Probably had him re-format his computer.

1. No, he would not have been hosed from the start. Microsoft had the foresight to make it so that System Restore will set a new Restore Point before each major installation. All Joe would have had to do is rollback.

2. He could have rolled back and then called ATI or his card manufacturer, both of which could help him immediately since they support Windows.

3. I highly doubt ATI's tech support line would ask him to reformat his computer. That's a rather irresponsible statement to throw around -- there are people in this forum who work the tech support lines, and I highly doubt any of them would jump straight to the "just do a reformat, Joe" line.

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Methinks herein lies the problem.... My view of Schmoe is what I described. They know at least what a hard drive is, what a virus is, they know to install most apps so long as it doesn't give them errors, they know to reboot if something screws up...

I know people that haven't the slightest idea what a hard drive is. Some of them know the term CPU -- but think the CPU is what is actually the CPU, HDD, GPU, RAM, chipset, all combined

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Originally Posted by Stephonovich Sorry for the shorter responses, anyway. I have to get to bed, as I'm heading to D.C. tomorrow for a trip. Hopefully I'll have Wi-Fi access there. If so, I'll continue the thread from there.

Hey, no problem! What're you heading off to D.C. for? Sounds like it'll be fun -- enjoy!

 

[Stephonovich]

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Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN There will be instances in which Joe will have to go online and search for drivers because they are neither bundled with the OS or the product (again, market conditions). You cannot deny that.

This is very true, with any OS. Especially if Joe ever decides to upgrade his drivers, although highly unlikely.

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It is not a 70% success rate. It is a 90+% success rate. The difference between SP2 and Linux's success rate is that while you can choose to not install SP2 and continue to successfully use SP1 while you update, the people locked out of Knoppix are locked out, period. Which one would you prefer? I would certainly prefer the first.

How do you get 90+-? 3 out of 10 seems like 70% to me. In any case, yes, you're right. However, as I pointed out, Knoppix works with most systems. I've tried it on a wide variety with no problems. They do exist, I'm sure, I just haven't encountered them yet.

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I think we are perfectly in agreement now

It would appear so. I was just unbelieving at how stupid someone could be, I suppose.


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LOL I can imagine your surprise. I'd venture a guess and say there are even worse out there, just you wait

No, no... please no. I don't think I could stand that.

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1. No, he would not have been hosed from the start. Microsoft had the foresight to make it so that System Restore will set a new Restore Point before each major installation. All Joe would have had to do is rollback. 2. He could have rolled back and then called ATI or his card manufacturer, both of which could help him immediately since they support Windows. 3. I highly doubt ATI's tech support line would ask him to reformat his computer. That's a rather irresponsible statement to throw around -- there are people in this forum who work the tech support lines, and I highly doubt any of them would jump straight to the "just do a reformat, Joe" line.

1. I've had System Restore not create points for me before. Especially if your system is hosed (due to drivers or what-have-you), it tends to screw up. YMMV, though.

2. You are likely right here. I've never dealt with tech support for any computer add-on, actually, so I wouldn't know.

3. I'm speaking from experience. I've called tech support for Gateway and Dell before simply because I needed to find something out about a system, and they're complete morons. Reload Windows was their standard response to ANYTHING. And I'm not going to even get into the outsourced ones. The locals were bad enough. It is very possible ATI and nVidia have better techies due to their smaller userbase, however.

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Hey, no problem! What're you heading off to D.C. for? Sounds like it'll be fun -- enjoy!

To visit my Uncle and his girlfriend-possibly-fiance, for one (he flew out there from Seattle), and to tour the city. It was quite good, I must say. Air and Space musuem was particularly good, as was American History.