[tortie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD Did you guys put in your name and address? I have issues with that.

Then dont. My name is ABC and I live at 123 St.

 

[Mr.PD]

Okay, I get it.

I guess I spent too long in that program of rigorous honesty.

 

[ipodstudio]

Quote:

Originally Posted by roadtonowhere08 I do not have ANY anti-virus program at all, and I've only got one virus... EVER. It was that damn Sasser virus. I guess not getting much e-mail helps Knock on wood...

IMO, that's most irresponsible. You use AV software as much out of courtesy to other people who you communicate with on the net. Your computer is most unsafe without AV software installed and the one time a virus does make itself into your computer and infects it, will be the time you may infect a bunch of your friends and associates.

When you actively surf the net you install AV software for your security and for the security of those you comminicate with. It's part of being an adult as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mr.PD]

Well I tried out that AVG program.
I uninstalled it already. I don't think much of a program that won't automatically protect my email (Outlook express). I could have downloaded a plug in that would have done it. But they didn't even have the decency to make the url to the plugin a link. Very unprofessional in my book. I can't trust them.

 

[ipodstudio]

I run several programs in tandem. Works fine if you spend a little time to install and sychronise. ZA will provide you with a decent free firewall and works well in tandem with Norton.

 

[Hajime]

Mr.PD, try NOD32. You can download the trial version here. Once it is installed it will run in the background and automatically take care of itself. It takes up very little resources, updates automatically and gives you no BS. It also automatically scans all of your Outlook Express email for viruses, trojans, etc.

[size=xx-small]Edit:[/size] The trial version is free for a full 30 days. You're not required to give them any information.

 

[Mr.PD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hajime Mr.PD, try NOD32. You can download the trial version here. Once it is installed it will run in the background and automatically take care of itself. It takes up very little resources, updates automatically and gives you no BS. It also automatically scans all of your Outlook Express email for viruses, trojans, etc. [size=xx-small]Edit:[/size] The trial version is free for a full 30 days. You're not required to give them any information.

Sounds good. I'll give that one a shot. thanks

 

[ReDVsion]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ipodstudio IMO, that's most irresponsible. You use AV software as much out of courtesy to other people who you communicate with on the net. Your computer is most unsafe without AV software installed and the one time a virus does make itself into your computer and infects it, will be the time you may infect a bunch of your friends and associates. When you actively surf the net you install AV software for your security and for the security of those you comminicate with. It's part of being an adult as far as I'm concerned.

Dude, seriously... come on... no. That's... just... anal.

 

[wallijonn]

ReDVision,

are you a zombie? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06...an_spam_study/
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/30/spam_biz/

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN Microsoft thus must take into account the fact that the most recurring customer is our dear Joe and Josephine Schmoe. In doing so, it strives to package their operating system not just as a base upon which to operate from, but as a total solution. It has a browser. /*If you can call IE that... Anyway, I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that doesn't include at least 2 browsers.*/ A firewall. /*I'll give XP one thing, it's built-in firewall ain't bad. However, again, pretty much all desktop distros have one or more available.*/ An e-mail client. //See comments about browsers An instant messenger client. //Ditto A media player. //Again... A photo editor. //GIMP, anyone? Even a video editor! /*Got me there. They're available, but usually not included by default. I don't really put much stock in Windows Movie Maker, but it does do some basic stuff.*/ ...but you cannot deny that for a large percent of the world, this is all they will ever need. /*What about word processing? Wordpad doesn't cut it, sorry. Again, almost all desktop distros include OpenOffice.*/

Quote:

In conclusion, you cannot fault Microsoft for having Windows XP increasing in size as much as does with each iteration, and point to Linux for comparison. They are an entirely different breed catering to entirely different market personalities.

Well, I can, actually. As I've pointed out, Linux does have out of the box, ready to go Windows replacements. What's more, there's many studies showing that when kids learn Linux at a young age, rather than Windows, they have no problems at all adapting to a Windows enviroment at a school, or wherever. See here, here, and here. (OK, those aren't studies... I have seen them before, but couldn't find 'em Googling. Regardless, they're good examples)

Quote:

I don't think you will require a quad-core CPU to operate Longhorn -- for one, dual-core CPUs won't be widely available for quite a while, not to mention quad-core CPUs. What we have now will probably serve as a low-end system for Longhorn.

I dunno. I've seen reports ranging from "it'll run on a PIII 500 with 128MB RAM" to the above-mentioned quad-core. You're probably right; it'll run on our current systems fairly well, and next-gen very well. I'm just not sure if I'm crazy about the idea of a desktop requiring 3D processing power... that's what games are for. Can you imagine someone having to buy a new graphics card to run an OS?

Quote:

I was wondering about that movie actually -- does the computer rendering lend a helping hand to the movie, or does it make everything seem much more cheesy, do you think? I'm not really sure if I should go watch it!

The computer rendering is very well done indeed. For one, the lighting for the movie is very low and sometimes sepia toned, so everything's already softened somewhat. However, when stuff is in natural light and in focus, it looks incredible. The cave sequence is one such example. Looked better than any tech demo I've seen for PCs. I'd say definitely go see it before it leaves the theaters. If you don't like it, well, you've wasted a few bucks. But it's definitely one of those movies that's better appreciated on a big screen.

Quote:

As for Kaspersky... keep us updated on your thoughts!

I'm offically converted over to Kaspersky now. I don't know what people are saying about it being a resource hog; memory usage hasn't passed 15MB for all modules combined yet when it's idling. I ran a full system scan once it was updated, and even with that and F@H running, the system was still perfectly responsive. It does a very good job at balancing available resources. It did, however, mistakenly ID John The Ripper, a multi-OS password cracker, as being a virus. Or, as it called it, a 'Hack Tool'. (official name, HackTool.Win32.John) Anyway, it gave me no option to 'ignore this file in the future', or the like. A slight annoyance, or perhaps I haven't mastered the UI yet.

And yes, before anyone asks, I have a valid reason for keeping password retrieval tools around. (not that it's anyone's business...) I do computer repair, and if someone manages to forget their Windows login password (not a problem in 9x, but NT based is actually somewhat decent, provided LM hashes aren't enabled), I can break it really quick. Hundredths of a second, actually, since most people use a common dictionary word for their password. Takes a computer a tiny fraction of a second to rip through a dictionary.

 

[pedxing]

I tried using kaspersky. I think its one of the best if not the best anti-virus program that I have used so far.

The only problem is the scan time. Nod32 takes like one hour to scan my computer. I had kaspersky run for four hours straight and it only managed to scan 40% of my computer. After that, I gave up and cancelled the full system scan until I find a more convenient time to do it. I think Kaspersky eats up a lot of computational resources while protecting my computer. I noticed that my web browsing speed is significantly slower while Kaspersky scans the web content. Now I am beginning to understand why people seem to be so attracted to Nod32.

Does anyone know if the personal pro version of kaspersky is significantly better than the normal personal version?

Edit: Although I think the performance is on the slow side, I think kaspesky offers a level of security I haven't seen before. It managed to find several potentially hazardous files that both norton and nod32 has ignored. However, sometimes knowing when to ignore a file is better than confusing the user with a false positive. This makes it kinda hard to evaulate the effectiveness of an anti-virus program.

 

[Audio Redneck]

Hey Pauly,

My first choice is the basic $19.95 NAV subscription (without all the extras) - this is what I use on the 90+ PCs I'm responsible for. My second choice would be a combination of the free versions. Leaving the AVG running and doing a manual scan with another one from time to time. The only problem is that AVG and some of the others don't repair as well as NAV. The detect and destroy the bugs just as good, but NAV does a better job at fixing registry problems.

(Off topic PS: as soon as I get a good shot, I'll send you a Pic of ShyAnne's new pet. Hint: this one's full blooded.)

 

[Stephonovich]

Just thought I'd let you all know how Kaspersky is doing... oh, this is the Personal Pro version, which may have some differences.

As stated, it runs fine on my XP 2000+ w/ 512MB RAM. However, the other day the system scan kicked in on a Dell 1.1GHz Celeron w/ 256MB RAM, and let me tell you, it ate it up. Firefox was extremely sluggish. I can't really recommend it for slower (A 1GHz PIII might be able to handle it, I dunno) computers, unless you plan on just leaving your computer while the scan runs.

Other than that no problems at all. I quite like it.

 

[bLue_oNioN]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Well, I can, actually. As I've pointed out, Linux does have out of the box, ready to go Windows replacements.

My original statement was that Linux is not yet able to match Windows XP when it comes to whipping up an acceptable combination of compatibility, a shallow learning curve, breadth of supplied components, and support.

“Windows replacements.”

Are you trying to tell me that if all the Joe Schmoes in the world attempted to switch over to Linux one day, the transition will be silky smooth? Because I find that hard to believe.

Of the four items I listed, there are two criteria that matter quite a bit to Joe Schmoe, where Linux easily loses to Windows: compatibility and support.

Let’s talk about drivers. Currently, if I want to install a printer, I pop it in, Windows detects it, installs the proper driver from the massive collection that is included with a default installation, and I’m good to go. Can you honestly say the same for Linux? Consumer products are developed to support Windows. You can expect your new purchase to work because that is where the market is: Windows-users. On the other hand, in many cases, installation of drivers for Linux will be a hassle because some vendors do not support Linux at all. This means searching for user-developed solutions. Joe Schmoe wants to watch ESPN, he doesn't want to fiddle around with his computer and get his new MP3 player that requires the supplied "Jukebox" to work.

Which brings me to my next point. If Joe Schmoe has a problem with product X and calls Company Y for technical support, what are the chances he will be given the help he needs promptly? There are many third-party services/companies that have yet to pick up proper support for Linux.

What I believe is that the swap to Linux is more than just an operating system change, it is a mentality change. No longer are you in the realm of 24/7 tech support in a community that is several times bigger than the Linux community.

Welly is currently gunning Linux, and I have no doubt he'll get things to work. But you need to realize, Welly is extremely determined and has bought books about Linux to figure things out. My confidence level in Joe Schmoe is not nearly as high.

Thus, I still believe that Linux remains an unattractive alternative for Joe Schmoe when compared to Windows. It's getting better and better, but it still loses to Windows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich What's more, there's many studies showing that when kids learn Linux at a young age, rather than Windows, they have no problems at all adapting to a Windows enviroment at a school, or wherever. See here, here, and here. (OK, those aren't studies... I have seen them before, but couldn't find 'em Googling. Regardless, they're good examples)[/URL]

Kids aren't the ones with money in their pockets, nor do they have the know-how to actually set the operating system up.

In each case, an adult set the operating system up, and beautified the interface so that it was as Windows-like as possible. That already nullifies any argument that may be made for Linux, since it is exactly this step that most Joe Schmoes will have trouble with. Next, the authors are telling us that their sub-eight-year-old children can word process using OpenOffice! It's not as if they are utilizing any special feature either. The author in question turned off AutoCorrect because he "insists that she use a real dictionary to look up words." In another article, the author is marveling at his four-year-old daughter's ability to type! This is not learning Linux, this is learning the universal basics. It has much less to do with Linux than the authors would like you to believe.

I would also like to point out that these are not studies, nor are they really articles/good examples. They're just very laidback, personal recounts of proud parents. Nothing particularly strong here that would convince anyone Linux is undoubtedly the superior OS.

Again, is there anything here to support the argument that Linux can act as a "Windows replacement" for the general crowd?

Honestly, I don't think so. I think there are many things you can do to Linux to make it act as close to Windows as possible. Linux has come a long ways, no doubt. But from a scratch install to a finished, polished setup, I believe there is just too much work and effort required, too many possible problems, to expect Joe Schmoe to follow through.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich I dunno. I've seen reports ranging from "it'll run on a PIII 500 with 128MB RAM" to the above-mentioned quad-core. You're probably right; it'll run on our current systems fairly well, and next-gen very well. I'm just not sure if I'm crazy about the idea of a desktop requiring 3D processing power... that's what games are for. Can you imagine someone having to buy a new graphics card to run an OS?

I have two things to say regarding this:
- By the time Longhorn is released, all graphics cards released from this point onward should be more than adequate -- this means a large leap forward in productivity will be compatibile with three-year-old technology. Not bad, really, considering how fast the industry moves.
- I have seen previews of the 3D-interface and the possibilities are very very exciting. I see not reason to hold back innovation at the risk of raising the bar in terms of minimum requirements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich The computer rendering is very well done indeed. For one, the lighting for the movie is very low and sometimes sepia toned, so everything's already softened somewhat. However, when stuff is in natural light and in focus, it looks incredible. The cave sequence is one such example. Looked better than any tech demo I've seen for PCs. I'd say definitely go see it before it leaves the theaters. If you don't like it, well, you've wasted a few bucks. But it's definitely one of those movies that's better appreciated on a big screen.

I will definitely go see it as soon as I can, thanks for taking away any concerns I had -- sounds something not to miss

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich I'm offically converted over to Kaspersky now. I don't know what people are saying about it being a resource hog; memory usage hasn't passed 15MB for all modules combined yet when it's idling. I ran a full system scan once it was updated, and even with that and F@H running, the system was still perfectly responsive. It does a very good job at balancing available resources. It did, however, mistakenly ID John The Ripper, a multi-OS password cracker, as being a virus. Or, as it called it, a 'Hack Tool'. (official name, HackTool.Win32.John) Anyway, it gave me no option to 'ignore this file in the future', or the like. A slight annoyance, or perhaps I haven't mastered the UI yet.

I'm glad to know you're enjoying it =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich And yes, before anyone asks, I have a valid reason for keeping password retrieval tools around. (not that it's anyone's business...) I do computer repair, and if someone manages to forget their Windows login password (not a problem in 9x, but NT based is actually somewhat decent, provided LM hashes aren't enabled), I can break it really quick. Hundredths of a second, actually, since most people use a common dictionary word for their password. Takes a computer a tiny fraction of a second to rip through a dictionary.

No need to explain, I personally use LC5 for this use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Just thought I'd let you all know how Kaspersky is doing... oh, this is the Personal Pro version, which may have some differences. As stated, it runs fine on my XP 2000+ w/ 512MB RAM. However, the other day the system scan kicked in on a Dell 1.1GHz Celeron w/ 256MB RAM, and let me tell you, it ate it up. Firefox was extremely sluggish. I can't really recommend it for slower (A 1GHz PIII might be able to handle it, I dunno) computers, unless you plan on just leaving your computer while the scan runs. Other than that no problems at all. I quite like it.

It's funny. Windows XP will cause slowdowns if it's run on computers that don't meet the bar, but once run properly, it's butter smooth. I suppose Kaspersky is the same?

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bLue_oNioN Are you trying to tell me that if all the Joe Schmoes in the world attempted to switch over to Linux one day, the transition will be silky smooth? Because I find that hard to believe.

No, I'm not. However, if someone goes to the trouble to buy Linux, (and this is where I think they'll suceed the most, since purchased copies generally come with tech support and manuals) they're going to give it some work to try and make it work. With most of the consumer distros, such as SuSE and Mandrake, there is no configuration. Believe me, I've installed these on every type of computer there is, and they just work. It's like XP, except better. (When was the last time you saw XP configuring DHCP while booting so that it instantly works when you're at a desktop? Plug Linux into a network and it just works, period)

Quote:

Let’s talk about drivers. Currently, if I want to install a printer, I pop it in, Windows detects it, installs the proper driver from the massive collection that is included with a default installation, and I’m good to go. Can you honestly say the same for Linux?

Actually, on that printers example... just this afternoon I plugged a HP Deskjet 882C into this XP box. It was previously installed on this computer, so presumably, the drivers are still present. However, Windows searched around for about 5 minutes before declaring it couldn't find anything. I had to manually find them and point Windows to the .inf files before it realized it had them available. As for Linux, yes, plug 'n play is very good indeed. I've had less problems with it finding drivers than Windows, with any distro. Linux even came up with drivers for a very ancient ISA TV Tuner card that Windows refused to touch. I couldn't even find drivers for it on the internet, but Linux grabbed it right away, without any configuration.

Not to be rude, but I think your idea of Linux may still be that of many people, in that you think it's still a cludgy hack that geeks run. It is a fully featured OS that includes more built-in software than Windows, and can handle any task you want, all on less hardware needs than Windows. And did I mention it's more stable? Talk to people who've used both OS's (myself included), and they'll tell you that the learning curve for Linux isn't that steep at all. You didn't complain when you had to learn Windows, did you? Linux is almost exactly the same if you have KDE or Gnome, which are the two most popular Window Managers available. There's a Start Button (rather, a KDE and Gnome button...), hierarchical menus, productivity and entertainment software, audio, video, and image tools, programming tools... the list goes on. All available through a friendly GUI. Or, if you so desire, there's a command line instantly available to you. You really ought to download a Live CD and try it. Knoppix is probably the most famous, full featured, and easiest to use of them all. Just boot to it and you have a working Linux desktop, complete with word processing, browsers, networking tools... you name it. And best of all, it doesn't touch your computer in any way, shape, or form. Reboot and remove the CD, and you're back in Windows. It's about 700MB, so you'll need a broadband connection, or a lot of patience.

Quote:

What I believe is that the swap to Linux is more than just an operating system change, it is a mentality change. No longer are you in the realm of 24/7 tech support in a community that is several times bigger than the Linux community.

Umm... I beg to differ . (yes, the period is a seperate link) And I haven't even begun to get into the fact that pretty much every distro, even relatively small ones, have their own dedicated forum. The Gentoo forums are a real stand out. Any question you could possibly have has already been answered, but if you feel like posting again, they're glad to help you. And as I've mentioned, if you purchase a copy of Linux, it usually comes with live tech support. I personally have yet to run into a problem I couldn't solve between forums and Google. On the flip side, there's been some problems in Windows that were so weird, no one knew what the problem was. Things like random freeze-ups that last 10 seconds and then go away of their own accord. And now, it's not a power supply or RAM problem. Not hardware at all. Linux runs fine. No, Linux is not inferior in the support department. It has a thriving community that is glad to offer help to any and all.

Quote:

Welly is currently gunning Linux, and I have no doubt he'll get things to work. But you need to realize, Welly is extremely determined and has bought books about Linux to figure things out. My confidence level in Joe Schmoe is not nearly as high.

Have Joe Schmoe buy a copy of Linux, rather than download it, and it'll come with a nice thick manual detailing every aspect of that distro. What's more, the installation process in most modern distros (tweaky ones like Gentoo excluded; I'm talking about SuSE, Mandrake, Redhat, et. al.) is laughably easy. More so than Windows. I strongly recommend the last link, in particular. Quite good, and it uses an average Schmoe (er, Schmoette) to do both installations. The first three are a series showing different distros against both Win2K and XP.

Quote:

Kids aren't the ones with money in their pockets, nor do they have the know-how to actually set the operating system up.

IIRC, the first time I installed an OS (98SE) from scratch, loaded 3rd party drivers, installed apps, etc., I was 10. Before that, I had loaded DOS on a 286 Packard Bell when I was 6 or so. A Mac ][ was my first foray into the GUI world, around when I was 8 or so. That didn't require any installation, though; the OS was on a floppy. (no HD)

Quote:

In each case, an adult set the operating system up, and beautified the interface so that it was as Windows-like as possible. That already nullifies any argument that may be made for Linux, since it is exactly this step that most Joe Schmoes will have trouble with. Next, the authors are telling us that their sub-eight-year-old children can word process using OpenOffice! It's not as if they are utilizing any special feature either. The author in question turned off AutoCorrect because he "insists that she use a real dictionary to look up words." In another article, the author is marveling at his four-year-old daughter's ability to type! This is not learning Linux, this is learning the universal basics. It has much less to do with Linux than the authors would like you to believe.

Beautified it? I hardly think so. Just because KDE and Gnome resemble Windows in that there's a Start Menu and icons on your desktop doesn't mean it's Windows. Besides, the family in this case ran ONLY Linux. Doesn't matter much if it looks like Windows if the kid has never seen it, does it?

As for simplistic tasks, using SSH and SCP doesn't seem to simple to me... I was introduced to that maybe a couple of years ago, when I was 14. Granted, typing random gibberish is nothing special, and nothing that couldn't be utilized using Word.

Quote:

I would also like to point out that these are not studies, nor are they really articles/good examples. They're just very laidback, personal recounts of proud parents. Nothing particularly strong here that would convince anyone Linux is undoubtedly the superior OS.

I really, truly wish I could find those articles I mentioned. They were quite compelling. Alas, no amount of Googling has found them so far. I admit, the pages I linked weren't the greatest.

Quote:

Honestly, I don't think so. I think there are many things you can do to Linux to make it act as close to Windows as possible. Linux has come a long ways, no doubt. But from a scratch install to a finished, polished setup, I believe there is just too much work and effort required, too many possible problems, to expect Joe Schmoe to follow through.

I question why you want it to resemble Windows in the first place. Is learning a new interface really all that difficult? C'mon, a GUI is a GUI. Having to adjust to not having a big button marked 'Start' isn't all that hard. Heck, a few days ago I installed Firefox on a client's computer to help some with her spyware problem, and also, pop-ups. I was going to install an IE theme so she wouldn't have to learn anything, but she took a look at it and said she wouldn't have any problem. This person was not computer literate in the least. She'd had this HP machine for 3 years and had no idea it had a CD burner, or what it was for.

As for the installation bit, see my previous comments. Installing Linux is a snap. Put CD in, click next, next, next. Best of all, there's no restrictive licensing agreement to click through, nor do you have to hunt for your CD key. And, of course, it's hardware detection is spot-on. About the only thing that might throw a new user for a loop is the root account. Windows (XP, anyway) has given everyone Administrator access by default. While this isn't necessarily a bad thing if you know what you're doing and have your system locked down from outside intruders fairly well, it's a very bad idea in Linux. If you've ever noticed, Windows won't let you delete some things. Gives you access violations, and even if you try, it warns you multiple times. Linux doesn't care what's using a file, it's gonna delete it. As for confirmation, it asks you once. If you're logged in as root, it assumes you know what you're doing. Which you should, if you use root. I once deleted the entire Linux system (rm -rf *), directory by directory while in X. It never complained once, nor did it lock up. It even managed to shut down. Upon reboot, of course, nothing was there. This is a testament to it's stability and power, methinks.

Quote:

It's funny. Windows XP will cause slowdowns if it's run on computers that don't meet the bar, but once run properly, it's butter smooth. I suppose Kaspersky is the same?

I assume so. I think the Celeron would handle it pretty well if it had 98SE on it. Less overhead. Basically, have a fairly new computer, or don't plan on multi tasking while the scan is running. Other than that, it's great. If I feel up to it I'll load 98SE on a computer I have sitting around (I think there's a PII 266 and PIII 550 somewhere) and infect it with a few virii. See how Kaspersky handles it.