[alitomr]

I just got my HD600 and after listening to 6 songs, I LOOVE THEM! 

 
They are importantly underamped, and are not being FED nothing fancy.  I am running them from my unexpectedly powerful behringer Q502USB mixer, connected to my Yamaha receiver preouts. Currently listening to Spotify in extreme quality, but my music collection is in FLAC and also lots of CDs that I will be listening from the PS3. 
 
Right now, I am close to the feeling I get from my main audio system. I think the HD600 are more detail and maybe a little better at some things but not close at others. Cymbals sound out of this world from my Klipsch, and my SVS subs provide me with unmatched lows, sooo musical..the Hd600 is just not at that level, at least not as they are now, practically brand new and underamped/underfed). 
 
Sooo, my plans are to try a lot of Schiit to see how they synergize with my new HD600. I will also be getting a HD650 to compare side by side, and will probably keep just one, unless I find them too different and love them both. I am looking for value, and building a system with no obvious flaws, knowing my weak links. 
 
I used to have the HD650 and loved it. What I remember (from back in 2008) is that they were more laid back than these, and that at the beginning I was underwhelmed, but they grew on me and it was one of the nicest audio experiences I have ever had, only matched (surpassed) by my current main audio system (speakers). I also think these HD600 are currently not reproducing highs from cymbals with the incredible clarity and presence I remember from the HD650. But we will see in september when I'll go to NYC with the purpose of testing and listening to a lot of audio equipment. That is when I will order the HD650 a DAC (undetermined), and several Schiit amps: Asgard 2, Vali 2, Valhalla, Lyr 2 (probably). 
 
My question to you now is, what can I get right now that is less than 200, to get them to improve over what I have. It could be two items, but they have to be less than 200 each (avoiding crazy high import taxes). 
 
Oh, i have a pair of HD595, but these HD600 are so much better than it's not even worth comparing them. Soundstage, bass, highs, mids (OMG!). Everything is just a couple leagues above. 
 
PD: I read somebody said guitars sounded off with the HD600. They sound incredible right now in mine. 


 

 

[Vulpe5]

Hey alitomr,
 
Since you're talking about import taxes? Are you in the EU, if so, you can order from Schiits official "schiit-europe.com". The products are a bit more expensive, but you don't need to add taxes, nor customs.
 
First off all. The HD600 is an awesome choice. Many people will tell you they work best with an tube-amp. The Asgard 2 is fairly warm, which works nice too. 
 
I'm currently using a Valhalla 2 for my HD600, which is a perfect combination.
 
For under 200 ($?) , there is only "one" schiit option, which is the Modi 2 + Magni 2 stack. The Modi Uber provides more inputs, the Magni Uber is more powerful. You can consider picking them too, they are still under 200 per unit.
 
Vulpes

 

[alitomr]

Thank you Vulpe. 
 
I am in Dominican Republic. I buy in the USA, almost always in amazon.com. At first I thought about the magni and modi 2 ubers and be over with it, but then started reading and thought I was going to go straight to the lyr 2 or valhalla 2, and then thought that im going to take it out of the way and research myself if it's true that electronics can make such an important difference. 
 
Right now, Im in that last part, and thats why I have the plan to test all the equipment I mentioned in the OP. I think I will get the MM2uber stack in order to define for myself, the differences, qualitatively and quantitatively, between low end and high end...or at last between low end and mid-end, since I am not paying crazy amounts for ultra high end equipment. When I have that definition I can have a better estimate of what I will be getting for the crazy amounts of money you need to shell in order to get the super hi end equipment. The law of diminishing returns, you know. 
 
Also, there is the love affair I had with the HD650. I need to try it side by side with the HD600, to really make a decision about which one to keep, or if its worth it to keep both. 

 

[drarthurwells]

HD600 are very accurate and have high resolution, good focused imaging, nice tone edge detail, but have a lean tone body.
 
HD650 are less accurate and have less resolution, richer tone body, less focused imaging (sounds mesh together so inner detail and instrument separation suffers), and less edge detail.
 
Cardas HP cable greatly improves the HD600 but not as evidently so with the HD650. Cardas developed this cable for the HD600 which his daughter used in recording and wanted a better sound with a better cable. She got it.
 
HD600 does best in a high resolution system while the HD650 is better in budget system. Recording engineers much prefer the HD600 over the HD650 for their work 
 
HD600 is good for its price.

 

[alitomr]

  HD600 are very accurate and have high resolution, good focused imaging, nice tone edge detail, but have a lean tone body.
 
HD650 are less accurate and have less resolution, richer tone body, less focused imaging (sounds mesh together so inner detail and instrument separation suffers), and less edge detail.
 
Cardas HP cable greatly improves the HD600 but not as evidently so with the HD650. Cardas developed this cable for the HD600 which his daughter used in recording and wanted a better sound with a better cable. She got it.
 
HD600 does best in a high resolution system while the HD650 is better in budget system. Recording engineers much prefer the HD600 over the HD650 for their work 
 
HD600 is good for its price.

 
Sounds like a vote in favor of the Hd600. Most people definitely prefer it over their big sister the HD650, but I did like my hd650  back when I had them. I just need to be sure. 

 

[drarthurwells]

   
Sounds like a vote in favor of the Hd600. Most people definitely prefer it over their big sister the HD650, but I did like my hd650  back when I had them. I just need to be sure. 

Depends on your system. Some systems match better with the HD650 than with the HD600. As Vulpe5 noted above, tube amps users may prefer the HD600 since tube amps often give more richness to the tone body (which you can vary with your tube choice) to compensate for the lean tone body of the HD600, while SS amp owners may prefer the HD650.
 
I like SS amps for their detail, 3D imaging with instrument separation in congested passages of music, and high resolution and accuracy, but I like the full rich tones that tube amps can yield. The HD600 have a SS sound, and match better with tube amps, while the HD650 have a tube amp sound that may match better with a SS amp.
 
A hybrid amp is the best since it has a tube pre-amp combined with a SS amp where changing tubes can regulate richness. The Bada PH12 is the best low cost hybrid and may well hold its own against the new super-amp $4000 category of hybrid amps from Audeze and HiFiMan that both claim to be the very best headphone amps

 

[alitomr]

 
Depends on your system. Some systems match better with the HD650 than with the HD600. As Vulpe5 noted above, tube amps users may prefer the HD600 since tube amps often give more richness to the tone body (which you can vary with your tube choice) to compensate for the lean tone body of the HD600, while SS amp owners may prefer the HD650.
 
I like SS amps for their detail, 3D imaging with instrument separation in congested passages of music, and high resolution and accuracy, but I like the full rich tones that tube amps can yield. The HD600 have a SS sound, and match better with tube amps, while the HD650 have a tube amp sound that may match better with a SS amp.
 
A hybrid amp is the best since it has a tube pre-amp combined with a SS amp where changing tubes can regulate richness. The Bada PH12 is the best low cost hybrid and may well hold its own against the new super-amp $4000 category of hybrid amps from Audeze and HiFiMan that both claim to be the very best headphone amps

Nice. I havent heard of the Bada PH12. I cant find its price in the official product page of the manufacturer, amazon or ebay. Do you know its price?  
 
In all honesty, I am not out to invest more tha say 1k USD for my portable rig. It's much money for me, since I am crazy about my speakers and good speaker system. I have a solid idea of what 2k well spent can give to my speaker system and I drool over the idea. Not so much about having a crazy nice headphone setup. For me, the headphones are always going to be a companion for those times where is is inappropriate to use my speakers, so they are the standard against which the headphones are going to be measured.
 
There was a time where people used to say that you could get the same audio quality you get from speakers with a tenth of the investment in headphones. I dont know, but speakers prices have come down importantly in the past few years. Maybe the ratio is much different. I am hoping a Valhalla 2 and the modi uber or bifrost (or some other DAC) get my rig to what I achieve with 3k and some in speakers. Again, for 250k this is great, and I know there are no speakers close to 250usd that can match these headphones in overall sound quality and refinement. So, a great investment if you ask me. 
 
Something else, what I remember about the HD650 is they are more forgiving than these HD600. Some things sound awful in the HD600 and some others sound glorious. I am currently listening to spotify, premium, highest quality (extreme) and the difference from track to track is huge. 

 

[drarthurwells]

  Nice. I havent heard of the Bada PH12. I cant find its price in the official product page of the manufacturer, amazon or ebay. Do you know its price?  
 
   
Something else, what I remember about the HD650 is they are more forgiving than these HD600. Some things sound awful in the HD600 and some others sound glorious. I am currently listening to spotify, premium, highest quality (extreme) and the difference from track to track is huge. 

 
Bada PH12 is not a portable amp. It is for a home system and costs around $600 USD (at cattylink.com). It now comes with Electro Harmonix (Russian) tubes but ask if you can get Shugang (Chinese) tubes instead. The Shugang is highly resolving, accurate, detailed, but lean, so use two in back with one Sylvania W Jan 6SN7 GT in front to add richness. This will go nicely with the HD600 if you have a good source.
 
The HD650 are not as highly resolving as the HD600 and thus the HD650 is more forgiving of problems in your system where the HD600 will reveal them. The HD600 will show harshness in the recording more than the HD650, because of higher resolution.
 
You need a good amp and source, and decent cables, to use with the HD600.
 
Some of the harshness of the HD600 is due to the Sennheiser factory cables which I found was reduced in switching to the Cardas cable.

 

[drarthurwells]

  There was a time where people used to say that you could get the same audio quality you get from speakers with a tenth of the investment in headphones. I dont know, but speakers prices have come down importantly in the past few years. Maybe the ratio is much different. I am hoping a Valhalla 2 and the modi uber or bifrost (or some other DAC) get my rig to what I achieve with 3k and some in speakers. Again, for 250k this is great, and I know there are no speakers close to 250usd that can match these headphones in overall sound quality and refinement. So, a great investment if you ask me. 

Different sound.
 
I love the room-filling volume (not loudness) of speakers which adds drama to the music but I love the detail and accuracy of headphones in concentrated listening.
 
Interaural distortion is when the sound from the left speaker is immediate to the left ear and then delayed to the right ear (which it also enters) and vice-versa. This delay muddies up the images.
 
Headphones don't have the interaural distortion of speakers and thus offer better imaging with more inner detail and less congestion in complex musical passages.
 
It is a matter of what you want to sacrifice. For video I like speakers (but sometimes use headphones for better clarity even though I have an accurate pre-amp, amp and speakers connected to my TV). For serious listening with symphonic orchestras my headphone system is preferred.

 

[alitomr]

  Different sound.
 
I love the room-filling volume (not loudness) of speakers which adds drama to the music but I love the detail and accuracy of headphones in concentrated listening.
 
Interaural distortion is when the sound from the left speaker is immediate to the left ear and then delayed to the right ear (which it also enters) and vice-versa. This delay muddies up the images.
 
Headphones don't have the interaural distortion of speakers and thus offer better imaging with more inner detail and less congestion in complex musical passages.
 
It is a matter of what you want to sacrifice. For video I like speakers (but sometimes use headphones for better clarity even though I have an accurate pre-amp, amp and speakers connected to my TV). For serious listening with symphonic orchestras my headphone system is preferred.

 
That's what I think! Complex passages have always been clearer and revelatory in headphones, but now, complex passages are struggling even with the HD600.  I wonder what the weak link is, the DAC in the yamaha Rx-V675 or the amp in the behringer mixer. It could be both. 
 
I understand "the veil" now. It is right there when listening to the HD600 from the headphone output of the receiver. I dont like it. When played from the mixer it comes so much clearer, and sounds are more spaced, detailed. Definitely more resolution, which makes me think the weak link is probably the amp, not the DAC. Im being aware of confirmation bias though. 
 
Have you heard the Valhalla 2?  As I said, I want to keep it sane, under 1k for the headphone rig. How does it compare to the Bada PH12??

 

[drarthurwells]

  Have you heard the Valhalla 2?  As I said, I want to keep it sane, under 1k for the headphone rig. How does it compare to the Bada PH12??

 
No, haven't heard it. Looking at its design and parts I don't think it would be as good as the Bada PH12.
 
I owned the top Woo of 6 years ago, and the Ray Samuels Raptor, as well as other amps, and none were as good as the less expensive Bada PH12.
 
I plan to try the $4000 Audeze King, a hybrid, later, and then I will know how good the Bada PH12 is. 

 

[alitomr]

Im super excited ablut my trio to NYC, but I dont think I'll be able to demo those crazy expensive amps. Do you know a place to do it?

I've had to stand up from the computer to not buy all the systems i want to try and be over with it. Not easy.

 

[Amish]

   
Ray Samuels Raptor

This amp has recently been on my radar. I understand you like the Bada more. Can you elaborate on that? What didn't the Raptor do well?

 

[drarthurwells]

  This amp has recently been on my radar. I understand you like the Bada more. Can you elaborate on that? What didn't the Raptor do well?

The Raptor was cold and clinical - a solid state sound - and no tube rolling could solve the lean tone body problem.
 
Plus it had a subtle mildly irritating quality after listening to it for 30 minutes or more.
 
I can make the Bada PH12 sound like the Raptor by using three Chinese Shugang tubes in it.
 
I prefer to use two Shugangs in the rear and a different tube in the front where the front tube is:
 
Sylvania 6SN7 WGT - improves the Raptor or solid state sound buy adding some richness to the tone body but not timbrel coloration associated to all-tube amps, and more emotional drama projectsd than the Raptor or a solid sate amp
 
Tung-Sol GTB - improves the above by adding even more richness to the tone body, but not abnormal tube coloration but with more emotional impact and drama to the music and even more natural timbre to the tone - my preferable tube set up at the moment
 
The Audeze LCD-3 greatly increased the resolution of my system so now I clearly hear big differences between tube set ups cable changes, etc. This tells me not only do I have a high resolution CD player but also that the Bada PH12 is a great amp (with the right tubes but can be a terrible amp with the wrong tubes).
 
Unless you have a top quality planar headphone like the LCD-3 or LCD-4, and a top quality source and cables and amp, you can not hear differences in comparing components that are there non-the-less right before your ears.
 
See my Bada thread started many years ago http://www.head-fi.org/t/134242/bada-ph12-vis-a-vis-meixing-mc66ae-and-lehmann-bc
 
.

 

[alitomr]

Well,
 
I ordered the magni 2 uber, the modi 2 uber and the valhalla 2. I received the magni 2 uber and it is a considerable upgrade coming from the Behringer Q502usb mixer. i will receive the modi next monday and the Valhalla next wednesday. If I don't hear a considerable upgrade blind testing the modi against my yamaha receiver pre-outs, I doubt I'll keep it. 
 
I have plans to write a little comparison between the modi 2 uber and the valhalla 2, two very popular amps, and an upgrade path that is supposed to be common, yet you cant find any comments about what to expect when upgrading for certain headphones, as the HD600.