[leeperry]

I've tried plug-ins for the likes of Foobar, I've tried the crossfeed built into my Headstage Arrow... and I just don't get it 

 
The human brain is not meant to process dual-mono...this is as unnatural as can get, as the neurons that take care of geolocalization (by measuring the delay of a sound between the 2 ears) are out of business..it can instantly make your brain go into "kernel panic", or grow over time for some other ppl....also the tighter the timings, the more the brain is fooled into believing that what it's hearing is "live" and real, and this upsets my brain even further to hear dual-mono. We're not cyborgs 

 
A clever xfeed should only project a frontal headstage, nothing more(especially not change the tonality)...and yes, there's a lot of lousy sounding implementations out there.

 

[Trysaeder]

Interesting, I tried out my B&W 703s the other night and it gives a much better experience than headphones.
 
Trying to find a good crossfeed for foobar now...

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

 
The human brain is not meant to process dual-mono...this is as unnatural as can get, as the neurons that take care of geolocalization (by measuring the delay of a sound between the 2 ears) are out of business..it can instantly make your brain go into "kernel panic", or grow over time for some other ppl....also the tighter the timings, the more the brain is fooled into believing that what it's hearing is "live" and real, and this upsets my brain even further to hear dual-mono. We're not cyborgs 

 
A clever xfeed should only project a frontal headstage, nothing more(especially not change the tonality)...and yes, there's a lot of lousy sounding implementations out there.

Even though I agree with what you say for a regular person, I think that for people that practically grow up woth headphones (which is more common since the walkman and now even more so thanks to iPod) the brain's capacity to adapt might come into play a lot more, so for some people processing "dual-mono" might not be as unnatural (and even second nature).
 
Also a crossfeed needs to take into account that there is no universal solution since differences in head shape, ear/cochlea shape, hrtf influence in what a crossfeed should do for each person, and that is why sophisticated solutions take that into account and let you customize parameters relate to that, for example Isone Pro lets you play with head and ear size, and that affects the algorithms.

 
Quote:

Quote:

I use Crossfeed with my HD800's, but do not with my HD650's and Ed8's.  I don't use it with the latter two cans because the increased warmth in the sound caused by the crossfeed feature on my HeadRoom amp adversely affects the sound.
 
The Meir Corda 1 seems interesting.  Is the increased warmth universal with all crossfeed implementations?

I haven't tried the Headroom implementation, but at least IME an increased warmth is not universal, it really depends in the algorithm or implementation you try.

 

[Paganini Alfredo]

Don't think I could do without it. I just turned the crossfeed off with my amp while listening to the Beatles, good lord, had to turn it back on immediately! 

 

[SP Wild]

Unfortunately a lot of conclusions about crossfeed are made by the popular Foobar implementation - which of all the crossfeeds I've tried, performed by far the worst.
 
It is also of my opinion that crossfeed is mandatory for closed cans to gain all of the benefits that open cans have due to their inherent open cup crosstalk crossfeed designed into them - which is not factored in by crossfeed makers as every open can model will have a unique crossfeed signature built-in.

 

[Roger Strummer]

Quote:

Unfortunately a lot of conclusions about crossfeed are made by the popular Foobar implementation - which of all the crossfeeds I've tried, performed by far the worst.
 
It is also of my opinion that crossfeed is mandatory for closed cans to gain all of the benefits that open cans have due to their inherent open cup crosstalk crossfeed designed into them - which is not factored in by crossfeed makers as every open can model will have a unique crossfeed signature built-in.

I concur, the foobar implementation is sub-par and shouldn't be used to judge the effects of crossfeed.
 
But I haven't seen any measures suggesting that crossfeed occurs in open cans, at least at moderate listening levels (say sub 90 db, or maybe 100 db max) except for a design like the k1000 (in which the angling that one uses affects the crossfeed that happens IME, so I have a hard time thinking that even the most extreme angled open cans have significant crossfeed). I have tested crossfeed in both open and closed cans and didn't find a significant difference in "similar" cans (say hd380 and hd595 which I think share the same driver).
 
Have you any links? If not I guess it would be an easy test to ask Tyll to perform when he comes back, but my bet would be that it would be insignificant in low to mid level volume listening, and probably at high volume listening also (but then again, a lot of educated hypothesis turn to be wrong 

)

 

[JamesL]

Say that you come across some new music.  You're much more likely to talk about and rave about it if you loved it.  If you come across music you didn't think much of, its just that - you won't think much about it, and you probably won't remember or talk about it unless you found it to be offensively bad.
Same with crossfeed I guess.  some people like it, some people don't, but you'll hear more often from the people who do like it.

 

[SP Wild]

Its only a hypothesis at this stage.  Although obtaining measured data is quite simple with the correct tools.
 
Heres a simple trick, which to me - is all the evidence I need.  Even if you are listening at low to moderate volumes, if you are wearing a top with a hood - pull it over your head.  Tonality, imaging and soundstaging are detectably altered - even with my D7000s.

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

Its only a hypothesis at this stage.  Although obtaining measured data is quite simple with the correct tools.
 
Heres a simple trick, which to me - is all the evidence I need.  Even if you are listening at low to moderate volumes, if you are wearing a top with a hood - pull it over your head.  Tonality, imaging and soundstaging are detectably altered - even with my D7000s.

Easily explained away with placebo and/or prevention of air flow.
 
Cover open headphones with your hands and it changes the sound drastically, not because it kills a "natural crossfeed" but because they were designed as open cans and not closed for a reason: they need to breathe.
 
I await measurements. But it's not very scientific to mention one of your hypotheses in passing as if it were already a law.

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

Easily explained away with placebo and/or prevention of air flow.
 
Cover open headphones with your hands and it changes the sound drastically, not because it kills a "natural crossfeed" but because they were designed as open cans and not closed for a reason: they need to breathe.
 
I doubt that having a hood over my head creates any pressure zone differences that "closes" an open can.  Covering the cup with your hand won't do that either - You're effectively altering cross feed characteristics.  IMHO!!!
 
I await measurements. But it's not very scientific to mention one of your hypotheses in passing as if it were already a law.
 
I don't know what more I need to do, I specifically started the paragraph with "It is also my opinion..."

 
I also remember experimenting with EQ and found strange results.  When EQ'ing 500hz to boost - this 500hz boost had a lower tone on H650 whilst the same adjustment made to K701 had a higher tone!!!  I was completely baffled - which one is the true 500hz? 
 
I now believe that this occured because of the crossfeed frequency variation between the two cans.  Yet another phenomenon anyone can try - and try explain why a 500hz boost will boost different tones in different cans???
 

 

[Head Injury]

Quote:

stuff in the quote

And I doubt that it would do anything to a natural crossfeed. So we're back to square one, eh? Doubts don't mean anything, beliefs don't mean anything. Only measurements will here, this being a scientific discussion. It'll be arguably even easier to test whether or not blocking air flow simply changes frequency response, so if Tyll ever tests what you propose he could test that too.
 
I figured you'd use the "opinion" card for your second point. I took your opinion to be that closed headphones need crossfeed, not that your open natural crossfeed was also an opinion. The moment you wrote the word "inherent" I assumed you had proof that it's in open headphone's nature to crossfeed, not that you wished they did. After all, that's what inherent means: that it is of something's nature. It's hard to argue that nature is an opinion.
 
I have a question for you: Does this crossfeeding work with mono recordings as well? Do open headphones have superior imaging with mono recordings?
 
Also: Do you have proof that the 500Hz tones were different? Or is this just going by an easily tricked human ear? Also also, difference in tone from a boost could probably be caused by what the frequency response around the boost looks like. If in the HD650 the 500Hz was a peak to begin with, the resulting shape of the curve would look different than if it were a trough on the K701. Right?

 

[SP Wild]

 
Quote:

And I doubt that it would do anything to a natural crossfeed. So we're back to square one, eh? Doubts don't mean anything, beliefs don't mean anything. Only measurements will here, this being a scientific discussion. It'll be arguably even easier to test whether or not blocking air flow simply changes frequency response, so if Tyll ever tests what you propose he could test that too.
 
Scientifically speaking - airflow can only be restricted if there is a difference in pressure before and after the restriction.  A hand over a cup or a hood over your head won't block airflow, ie there is insufficient difference in pressure. 
 
I figured you'd use the "opinion" card for your second point. I took your opinion to be that closed headphones need crossfeed, not that your open natural crossfeed was also an opinion. The moment you wrote the word "inherent" I assumed you had proof that it's in open headphone's nature to crossfeed, not that you wished they did. After all, that's what inherent means: that it is of something's nature. It's hard to argue that nature is an opinion.
 
That is a reasonable point.  I can take responsibility for my shortcomings.
 
I have a question for you: Does this crossfeeding work with mono recordings as well? Do open headphones have superior imaging with mono recordings?
 
I don't know, do speakers?
 
Also: Do you have proof that the 500Hz tones were different? Or is this just going by an easily tricked human ear? Also also, difference in tone from a boost could probably be caused by what the frequency response around the boost looks like. If in the HD650 the 500Hz was a peak to begin with, the resulting shape of the curve would look different than if it were a trough on the K701. Right?
 
Now I feel you are being unreasonable asking for scientific evidence you know well I cannot provide.  Why don't you try it as suggested - and tell me what you believe.
 
PS.  As you've taught me - I need for you to provide verified scientific empirical data that having a hood over your head or covering the cup with your hand  "blocks air flow".  Its quite simple, you only need two pressure sensors.

 

[leeperry]

  

Even though I agree with what you say for a regular person, I think that for people that practically grow up with headphones (which is more common since the walkman and now even more so thanks to iPod) the brain's capacity to adapt might come into play a lot more, so for some people processing "dual-mono" might not be as unnatural (and even second nature). 

 
Well, you could simultaneously watch two different scenes w/ each eye...but this is still highly unnatural, the brain is meant to use its two eyes on the same scene to get a feeling of the 3D "depth" of what it's seeing, and use its two ears to geolocalize each sound by measuring their delay between the 2 ears...that's how the human brain has been working since the beginning of times.
 
sure you could listen to two different audio streams while watching two video streams as well....but the brain hasn't been engineered to do that, so prepare yourself for some unforeseen consequences, hah

.
 
That reminds me of a woman that had some brain surgery going bad, and they broke the link between the 2 hemispheres of her brain...one hand took a blue shirt in the wardrobe, the other one put it back

 

Don't think I could do without it. I just turned the crossfeed off with my amp while listening to the Beatles, good lord, had to turn it back on immediately! 

 
hehe, been listening to head-fit for more hours that I would admit...now my brain is really used to its triangular shaped headstage(it reminds me of the LT1028AC SS), and I just tried to disable it on that song: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=p&tbs=vid%3A1&q=Cymande+Genevieve
 
this mix is hard-pan'ed to death, and there's only a handful of elements...basically a loud bass line, a male singer voice and some hihats in the middle, some percussion drums on the far right and some brass instruments from time to time on the far left/right simultaneously.
 
when xfeed was disabled, first my left ear complained that it couldn't hear the drums anymore...as they're really too "far" on the right side tbh...it's really unconfortable to listen to them, and the half-deaf feeling came back right away...head-fit stays! 

 

[revolink24]

Quote:

It's entirely album dependent. If there is naturally crossfeed built into the mix then it's not necessary. I find it necessary when instruments are hard-panned to one channel only. It drives my ears mad to listen to this music without crossfeed. In fact, most of the time I don't listen to albums like that using headphones.

That doesn't really make sense to me. Crossfeed isn't really built into the mix per se, the music is either mixed with speakers as monitors or headphones as monitors. Generally though music is mixed with speakers unless it's binaural, in which case, yes, crossfeed just ruins it. But otherwise, I've never seen (or heard) of  "crossfeed" being mixed in. Therefore, when my music isn't binaural, the crossfeed stays on. It just feels so much more natural.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

 Well, you could simultaneously watch two different scenes w/ each eye...but this is still highly unnatural, the brain is meant to use its two eyes on the same scene to get a feeling of the 3D "depth" of what it's seeing, and use its two ears to geolocalize each sound by measuring their delay between the 2 ears...that's how the human brain has been working since the beginning of times.
 
sure you could listen to two different audio streams while watching two video streams as well....but the brain hasn't been engineered to do that, so prepare yourself for some unforeseen consequences, hah

.
 
That reminds me of a woman that had some brain surgery going bad, and they broke the link between the 2 hemispheres of her brain...one hand took a blue shirt in the wardrobe, the other one put it back

 
 
hehe, been listening to head-fit for more hours that I would admit...now my brain is really used to its triangular shaped headstage(it reminds me of the LT1028AC SS), and I just tried to disable it on that song: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&tbo=p&tbs=vid%3A1&q=Cymande+Genevieve
 
 

A very good headstage for me isn't triangular, but one in which the separation of channels disappear.  In this way, I don't have the impression that I actually have headphones on.  It's as if they disappear.  Great recordings on my HD800's can produce that effect.  OTOH, I was listening to a particular recording on my Ed8's and there was a separation of sounds between both channels while contributing to lead guitar play. The two contributions didn't combine to form one sound in the center of my head.  This was way more off-putting than hearing the guitar from only one channel.