I just discovered another waste!
Jun 29, 2016 at 3:54 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 26

reginalb

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So, I have some UM Merlins. Their input impedance is silly low (12Ω) which seemed like as good a reason as any to get a DAP. So I got a Sony ZX1, class D amp should work really well with them. I got an AK300 for other reasons. But today I ran an RMAA test with the Merlins as a load. 
 

 
haha, my cell phone is the best performer with the Merlin load. 
 
40Hz - 15kHz ranges:
Nexus 6: +0.51, -0.75
AK300:   +0.51, -1.01
ZX1:       +0.58, -1.41
 
Note that the Merlin uses a dynamic driver for the low frequencies, so unlike other BA IEMs, the lows would be expected to perform alright. I was definitely surprised to see the Sony at the bottom. The AK300 has a 2Ω OI for headphones, so I figured it would come in second, and that the Nexus wouldn't do well at all. 
 
Also note, that the nexus was streaming the test file MP3 from Google Play. The AK300 also has an EQ that I could load a profile in to and really flatten it, too. I didn't include the details for the wider frequency ranges, because the MP3 being streamed has a low pass filter causing it to cut off at around 19,600kHz, it seems. So when you stream MP3, it always looks worse. But I found this result to be really interesting.
 
Sep 11, 2016 at 11:14 PM Post #5 of 26
Quote:



Since this is sound science.,.anyone care to verify or reject this claim ? I'm really curious. Why doesnt evwryone just run music out of phones then..

 
1. Because not everyone understands science. Look at how many people would take the advice of a pornstar over doctors when it comes to vaccines.

2. Some people just don't want to use their phones. Keep batteries separate, they don't want to have to program interruptions (or if they're open to them, they use the phone, otherwise just the DAP). Mostly these are the people who buy the cheaper DAPs like the X1.

3. Some people use higher impedance, lower sensitivity headphones (vs the IEM used by the OP) with their DAPs, which apart from their euphonic distortion (likely dialed in via the firmware; or in some cases, the battery just doesn't cut it for the chips used) would stay cleaner at the required output levels vs a smartphone with a 5mW audio chip.
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 1:22 AM Post #6 of 26
 
 
1. Because not everyone understands science. Look at how many people would take the advice of a pornstar over doctors when it comes to vaccines.

2. Some people just don't want to use their phones. Keep batteries separate, they don't want to have to program interruptions (or if they're open to them, they use the phone, otherwise just the DAP). Mostly these are the people who buy the cheaper DAPs like the X1.

3. Some people use higher impedance, lower sensitivity headphones (vs the IEM used by the OP) with their DAPs, which apart from their euphonic distortion (likely dialed in via the firmware; or in some cases, the battery just doesn't cut it for the chips used) would stay cleaner at the required output levels vs a smartphone with a 5mW audio chip.

1. Sure. What I meant was that since we're in the Sound Science subforum here, I think everyone is curious as to the science of how things work and it would be nice to have some input from the guys who do understand it.
 
2. Okay
 
3. Cool. How much distortion can a smartphone DAC add vs a dedicated DAP?
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 7:28 AM Post #7 of 26
Since this is sound science.,.anyone care to verify or reject this claim ? I'm really curious. Why doesnt evwryone just run music out of phones then..


Yes, I would like a second opinion too.
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 9:29 AM Post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by alffla /img/forum/go_quote.gif
1. Sure. What I meant was that since we're in the Sound Science subforum here, I think everyone is curious as to the science of how things work and it would be nice to have some input from the guys who do understand it.

 
Well the ones who read the sound science forum would likely just use a decent smartphone, and those who want to keep a separate player aren't likely to blow over $300 on one.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alffla /img/forum/go_quote.gif
3. Cool. How much distortion can a smartphone DAC add vs a dedicated DAP?

 
First off, it isn't just a DAC - it's a dedicated audio chip that has an output section that is more like a headphone driver op-amp. Note of course that there are a few Chinese smartphones that have circuits based on the kinds of chips as on a Fiio X3 - dedicated DAC, dedicated output stage op-amp, headphone driver op-amp. Think of it as kind of like a modern APU, ie you have the CPU and GPU in one large chip using the same RAM.
 
As for distortion, like I already mentioned, at what impedance and how much power do you need? I don't have measurements here but you can think about it this way. An integrated audio chip that outputs 5mW at 32ohms with 0.01% distortion, 93dB SNR vs a DAP that does 100mW at 32ohms with 0.01% distortion, 93dB SNR wouldn't have any real audible differences (unless there's something in the software of either one that affects how it handles the sound) on a 32ohm, 125dB IEM. Driving the ASG-1.3, the Fiio X1 was more neutral than the bloated bass on my SGS3, but the real benefit is the 100-step potentiometer (Android updates sometime late last year fixed that problem), however Neutron's sophisticated EQ and not having to haul a second device kept me from buying the X1. Put a 300ohm load on either, such as the HD600, and even with a 96dB sensitivity the SGS3 will start sounding "lazy" and boring even with a generally comparable volume level match (ie a smartphone SPL app and the mic just by the earpad).
 
So in sum if you're using an IEM and a smartphone with decent measurements (and particularly low output impedance if the IEM's nominal impedance is low) the only issue you'd encounter is software, but that can be true for both DAP and smartphone anyway. As for OP's graph though I personally think I'd prefer the AK300 middle ground, but that won't mean I'm going to shell out that much money.
 
Sep 12, 2016 at 3:43 PM Post #10 of 26
from an electrical perspective, we should first determine the load(headphone/IEM), and then make the amp section to go with it. knowing that some loads will make the pairing job a lot easier. 
so the concept of amazballzz DAPs without consideration for the headphone/IEM can look a lot like empty marketing nonsense.
most TOTL DAPs like the sony stuff have been consistently misleading people with eye candy. highres, whatever cable nonsense inside the DAP, and fancy chipset tech that doesn't really deliver. look at that graph we pulled out of our asses that no engineer would ever support, it means not a thing, but hey doesn't it look like we're selling something great? 
they can't stop talking about all those irrelevant stuff to get us thinking it should matter. they hope we'll go aggro on fake targets and forget about what really matters, which is the signal getting out of your headphone, the actual sound. hires DAPs being one of the fake target to focus on. a so called highres DAP is a DAP that can play highres files. nothing more. there is zero guaranty about a DAP having highres fidelity at the output jack, and even less about highres at the output of the headphone/IEM. and that's for an obvious reason, almost no portable device will do better than 16bit on most measurements once plugged into the load(IEM) at the user's loudness setting. 
the ZX1 and most sony DAPs talk non stop about highres, the highres golden logo, the highres icon on the screen when you play highres file, the special chipset and special DAC made for better highres and lower noise. but then you measure the output of the DAP even unloaded and you get close to the specs of an old iphone(who am I kidding, an iphone is always old, think different). so it's worth keeping in mind that in front of marketing tricks, we're not all Pen&Teller and we get fooled way more often than we would wish.
 
 
now some cellphones have horrible sound, some have very audible hiss with most IEMs, some have way too high an output impedance and it messes up with the signature of many multidriver IEMs. some will distort when the IEM has too low an impedance...  and so will some DAPs!
I'm not saying that cellphones are the dope and that DAPs are for stupids. just that if you care about features, buy for the features. but if you care about actual sound fidelity, then buy for measured fidelity into a specific load, not because some marketing guy gave you the illusion of fidelity with a few gimmicks.
but that's me daydreaming, as DAPs typically don't show measurements into loads or any significant measurement for that matter. oh well, there you go, now you know that almost nobody is actually selling high fidelity. if they did they would give the specs that really demonstrate it, they would love nothing more than to show how they do what the other guy doesn't many countries even allow that kind of advertising "buy us because the other brand does only this". instead we get misleading badly written and incomplete nominal chipset specs, as if it was what you should expect getting out of the headphone jack. because it's BS but legally it's not, they just don't say clearly that it's the measurement from the chipset manufacturer. or they only write the one spec that looks ok, and "forget" to put down the other ones on the website. misdirection, magic trick, we're amazed. marketing is magic.
 
so what should I do? 
maybe if I'm ready to put 2000$ into a DAP and perhaps as much into IEMs, I could first put 450$ into a QA401 audio analyzer and a few resistors and cables to check myself the fidelity I get out of those DAPs.
maybe I'd get some expensive DAP, because why not I have the money. it looks nice and is nice to use. that's already a good reason to get it. if people look at me in the street like they wish to steal it, then I'll feel special for a time, maybe I'd enjoy that too.
or maybe I'd get a good DAC/amp that will work well with my headphone, and give me a sound that is objectively or subjectively better than any DAP alone.
or maybe I can't be bothered with carrying bricks, portable gear shouldn't forget the portable part. so I'll just get rid of my TOTL IEM that's such a bother to drive well with a non hissing, low impedance non distorting source, and instead get a portable headphone, easy enough to drive so that I can use it with my cellphone. life is simple, life is good.
maybe it's just to commute anyway so who cares about sound fidelity when overwhelmed by noises. maybe I'll just get cheap isolating IEMs, or just ear plugs. maybe I'll just listen to audiobooks anyway so who cares about fidelity and I'll use a pair of etykid IEMs into my old sansa clip. greatness for 2 digits(true story bro).
 
people have choice and they all want something different. science will not tell me what I desire. I'm not that objective yet ^_^. at best it can help not being fooled as often as without science. but even that doesn't matter to everybody. some are fine with being fooled if it makes them happy. the question of what to buy goes way beyond the question of best sound. and even then, what is best sound with headphones? we don't even have a frequency response target we can confidently say will sound neutral to your ears. so we can rely on objective measurements to follow an ideal, but when that ideal is unclear(up to a point), you listening to the gear and you using the gear will still be a big factor in how much you'll value a device. believe me I wish there were simple answers "go buy this and this and you'll have the best sound ever". but I'm not aware of enough measurements done to determine such combo, and even then I bet we wouldn't all buy the same stuff. we're just that kind of creatures.
wink_face.gif

 
Sep 13, 2016 at 1:28 AM Post #11 of 26
 
now some cellphones have horrible sound, some have very audible hiss with most IEMs, some have way too high an output impedance and it messes up with the signature of many multidriver IEMs. some will distort when the IEM has too low an impedance...  and so will some DAPs!
I'm not saying that cellphones are the dope and that DAPs are for stupids. just that if you care about features, buy for the features. but if you care about actual sound fidelity, then buy for measured fidelity into a specific load, not because some marketing guy gave you the illusion of fidelity with a few gimmicks.

 
One reason why I went with my Aurisonics ASG-1.3 - at 32ohms it's less likely to be too low much less too high (not to mention 125mW sensitivity). The likelihood of whatever I use with it not deviating too far from what were used when measurements of this were published makes EQ use easier, and even when the sound is skewed out of the box for 1000hz down, the response on either side of 1000hz is fairly smooth
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 3:16 AM Post #12 of 26
Though on the other hand Sony's S-Master implementation does have one real engineering thing going for it - it's extremely battery efficient.  They start from that point and tries to improve the other aspects of it.  I can at least respect them for that angle. With most DAPs using off the shelf DAC chips/implementations and struggling to get play times of 10hrs, the 60+hr playtime of S-Master for mp3s is a pretty tangible user benefit. And as Sony seems to be the only company interested in taking this approach, I surely hope they don't go away of the dodo. 
 
I've had the ZX1 before (bought cheap 2nd hand), and not having to think about charging that thing and find that it still has plenty of juice left in it was extremely liberating in the current world of having to constantly find power.
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 5:39 AM Post #13 of 26
Pfft, some of you pompous sods need to get over yourselves 
biggrin.gif

 
Not everyone can or wants to fit their "must have" music on their phone- esp if it's just a 32GB phone with no card slot. Once you have the OS, non-removable shovelware apps and various other things, you'll only be getting a fraction of the space- and you want to leave enough space free for updates etc. Hell, you might have an old candybar "feature phone" because you're some sort of smartphone-averse terrist- you know who you are...
 
There's nothing wrong with sidestepping the crapshoot of phones and their built-in DACs/amps (which are often quite hard to find data about), and picking up a nice simple DAP from someone reputable. Spending £160 or so on a Fiio X3 gets you an iPod classic-sized player with a card slot, made by a manufacturer who does a pretty good job with bang for buck DAC/amps. It goes in your pocket, plays music, leaves your phone alone. For some folks, that's a great option.
 
I can see the appeal, for sure. Maybe I wouldn't spend ludicrous amounts on some of those Astell and Kern, but I could quite cheerfully see myself picking up a Fiio X3 or similar if I didn't have a suitable phone, or couldn't/didn't want to get one.
 
That said, a bit of me is tempted to try one of these, as they're supposed to punch above their weight:
 
http://penonaudio.com/BENJIE-K9
 
It might be crap, it might not.. sometimes you have to risk it, just like with those super-budget Chinese IEMs.
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:05 PM Post #14 of 26
I use a cheap motorola for BT and digital source for my DAC/amp. I don't use it as a phone it doesn't have a sim card.  is it a phone or is it a DAP?
deadhorse.gif

 
 
 
Quote:
  Though on the other hand Sony's S-Master implementation does have one real engineering thing going for it - it's extremely battery efficient.  They start from that point and tries to improve the other aspects of it.  I can at least respect them for that angle. With most DAPs using off the shelf DAC chips/implementations and struggling to get play times of 10hrs, the 60+hr playtime of S-Master for mp3s is a pretty tangible user benefit. And as Sony seems to be the only company interested in taking this approach, I surely hope they don't go away of the dodo. 
 
I've had the ZX1 before (bought cheap 2nd hand), and not having to think about charging that thing and find that it still has plenty of juice left in it was extremely liberating in the current world of having to constantly find power.

I wasn't trying to troll sony DAPs, it's their marketing buffoonery I was talking about. the latest sony DAP had marketing talking about how they have a wire inside that DAP with a brand name on it. well, isn't that something interesting? no it isn't! 
very_evil_smiley.gif

it's sony nowadays, they just can't help doing it and bringing our attention to something utterly meaningless for the show. 
- look at them wires, aren't they great?
- ok but what about the output impedance the weak power output and the usual background noise? is BT stronger than on previous models? will you stop using the proprietary cable that every single person on the planet really hates?
- hush hush, look at them capacitors, we used 8 small ones instead of 2 big ones, why don't you talk about that instead? and look at those staircases graphs showing the digital behavior of an unfiltered R2R DAC when all our chipsets have been pulse modulated for more than 10years. meaningless, but frightening isn't it? now go buy highres, we're also a record company.
 
otherwise I own 3 sony DAPs and I enjoy using them. they have pros and cons, like any other device.
 
Sep 13, 2016 at 12:20 PM Post #15 of 26
  I use a cheap motorola for BT and digital source for my DAC/amp. I don't use it as a phone it doesn't have a sim card.  is it a phone or is it a DAP?
deadhorse.gif

 
 
 
Quote:
I wasn't trying to troll sony DAPs, it's their marketing buffoonery I was talking about. the latest sony DAP had marketing talking about how they have a wire inside that DAP with a brand name on it. well, isn't that something interesting? no it isn't! 
very_evil_smiley.gif

it's sony nowadays, they just can't help doing it and bringing our attention to something utterly meaningless for the show. 
- look at them wires, aren't they great?
- ok but what about the output impedance the weak power output and the usual background noise? is BT stronger than on previous models? will you stop using the proprietary cable that every single person on the planet really hates?
- hush hush, look at them capacitors, we used 8 small ones instead of 2 big ones, why don't you talk about that instead? and look at those staircases graphs showing the digital behavior of an unfiltered R2R DAC when all our chipsets have been pulse modulated for more than 10years. meaningless, but frightening isn't it? now go buy highres, we're also a record company.
 
otherwise I own 3 sony DAPs and I enjoy using them. they have pros and cons, like any other device.

 
They didn't pioneer all the snake oil PR anyway, we know it's part of the game and nobody has any interest in changing the rules, that's why we have that other thread going on in the sub-forum about the ridiculous prices of audiophile equipment.
 
What's interesting is that I've read some blog posts in Japanese when some people get to talk with the Sony engineers outside of their PR environment and they basically acknowledges that a lot the blingy stuff like cable is placebo and it doesn't show up on measurements, but their stance is if it makes the user think it sounds different, then it's good to go.  I find that honesty actually quite amusing.  Can a comparison be drawn to doctors subscribing placebo to patients?  In fact, what are everyone's ethical stances of selling placebos?  Does manipulating a person's psychology to trick them thinking something is better a go or not? 
 

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