[TyTB]

Hello everyone,

Years ago, I walked into Bay Bloor Radio, in Toronto. I went over to their headphone testing section, and tossed on a pair of Denon AH-D2000's, and hit the play button that was connected to the store's hardware.

What came into my ears was the best auditory experience I've ever had. The soundstage was absolutely immense. To even call it a sound-"stage" is to do it a disservice. It was a sound-amphitheater. Instruments sounded like they were many feet away, in all directions around me. The drums were physically behind me, the strings to my front and left, etc. The detail and resolution were astounding.

At least, compared to what I had ever heard before or since. I was only 20 at the time, and did not own any audio equipment of any kind, beyond a pair of $50 Sennheiser on-ear headphones.

I have been wanting to get back to that kind of sound ever since, and I'm finally starting to have enough money to buy some basic audio gear, under $1000.

The reason I'm not posting this in the "Shopping and Setup Help Desk" thread is because I'm not actually looking for suggestions about what to buy specifically.

Rather, I'm wanting to know what part of the auditory chain is most responsible for the great sound that I heard, those years ago.

• Was it the Denon D2000's? My understanding is that they're good headphones, but should have a smaller soundstage than a pair of open-backed headphones. Yet, the Sennheiser HD 6XX's I currently use sound much, much smaller. The sound is barely outside my skull, let alone a dozen feet away from it.
• Was it the amplifier or DAC they were using at the store? This equipment was unfortunately hidden from view, so I have no idea what it was. Right now, I use an SDAC from GRACE, running directly from my computer, and powering my HD 6XX's directly. My intention was to buy a Schitt Stack, such as the Modius DAC and the LYR amp (The Lyr because it looks great, can operate as a solid-state amp, and also gives me the option to hear tube sound for the first time), but I'm not dead-set on this specific product set.
• Was it a pre-amp? I have no idea if they even had one in the audio chain that was powering the headphones.
• Was it the music files themselves? I try to purchase only .flac music files when I can, though I still haven't found a good place to buy those from. I use 7Digital, but it doesn't feel trustworthy. I often wonder if the .flac files I'm buying are really just the .mp3's, converted.

• Was it everything together? I mean, of course it was, I know that your music will only sound as good as the weakest link in the chain, but given that I already have some HD 6XX's, and only have around $1000 to spend on amps and DACs, am I likely to be able to get noticeably better sound than my current setup, running off the GRACE SDAC?

Any thoughts are appreciated, thank you!

 

[msing539]

In my opinion, headphones then dac make the biggest difference. Then amp and finally files. My Denons sound better on better sources, so I believe what you experienced was a combination. Also, things can initially sound incredible but our tastes change, as does our hearing. It's possible you might not get that feeling back even if you recreated the entire setup.

 

[HipHopScribe]

90% the headphones. Unless you're really starving your headphone for power, better amps and DACs are just going to refine and get that last little bit from your headphones, but they're not transformative. The HD6XX has many benefits, but they're notorious for having very narrow staging, so they're the exact wrong headphone for what you want. Sell them and look elsewhere. You'd be better off with something like the Hifiman Ananda Nano.

 

[earmonger]

I agree that headphones are by far the most important part of the chain, I'd say 85%. Then, if they are power-hungry (like my beloved, comfortable and open-sounding Audio-Technica ATH-R70X), get an amp that will supply what they need -- but an under-$100 Monolith Liquid Spark or Schiit Magni or VE Megatron will suffice. The source has to be good, but most sources (with the exception of low-bitrate sites like YouTube, Soundcloud and basic Spotify) are already good -- Tidal and Qobuz both offer high-bitrate streaming.

Yes, everything in the chain will affect the sound, but it should all serve the headphones first. When the headphones are well-tuned to begin with, you don't need other parts of the chain to compensate -- all they have to do is provide an accurate signal, not one that is hyped up or sculpted or otherwise second-guessing the music.

If you still have a good headphone store in the vicinity, take some of your best-known music and try an assortment, making sure that you have volume as matched as possible. Otherwise poke around here and other headphone sites, narrow things down to a handful and see what you can audition via mail-order return policies. Some places charge restocking fees (because they are then going to have to sell an open-box return at a discount) and others don't, but do limit your choices rather than abusing vendor generosity.

 

[peterinvan]

I just got the FiiO K7 DAC/amp, and my first impressions are very good. I am an AKM fan and the K7 implementation suits my ears. All my headphones and earphones have 4.4mm balanced cables.

The K7 drives my LCD-XC with ease, presenting a big sound stage with good instrumentation. I read most of the reviews and agree with the assessments of the sound profile: tight and accurate bass, mids (vocals) clear and lifelike, treble is precise and offers clarity without and sibilance. Comfortable listening... no fatigue so far. Will burn the K7 in for a few days to see if anything changes.

 

[GREQ]

Yet, the Sennheiser HD 6XX's I currently use sound much, much smaller. The sound is barely outside my skull, let alone a dozen feet away from it.

It sounds very much like the store was using some kind of 3D DSP processing to make them sound much larger and more impressive than they really are.
This kind of processing has NOTHING to do with the headphone, amp, DAC or DAC chip specifically, and everything to do with the kind of software or hardware DSP.
Also, before anyone cries out that it was probably too early for 3D/surround/spatial DSP - it has been around commercially since Sony introduced it in 1994 with the VIP-1000 system.

I think what you might be looking for is a similar 'surround-3D-sound-cinema' system like what is offered by Sony and JVC.

https://www.jvc.com/usa/headphones/home-theater-solutions/xp-ext1/
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-MDR-HW700DS-Wireless-Headphone-100-240V/dp/B00FJISYZQ

No other regular stereo headphone, DAC or amp will get you ANYWHERE CLOSE to what good 3D DSP can do.
Whether it sounds objectively good or not is another matter, but somehow I don't think that's the point here; you're looking for an 'experience' and I think this is what it might be.

 

[BS5711]

I don’t know the technicalities of sound processing (DSP) that GREQ mentioned but I suspect what you experienced was either DSP related or simply youthful exuberance overstating the reality.

My experience, while less than many here, indicates that no headphone set up of any remotely reasonable price is going to create the experience you described and perhaps no traditional two channel headphone set up without heavily processed music at any price.

 

[Pictograms]

Hello everyone,

Years ago, I walked into Bay Bloor Radio, in Toronto. I went over to their headphone testing section, and tossed on a pair of Denon AH-D2000's, and hit the play button that was connected to the store's hardware.

What came into my ears was the best auditory experience I've ever had. The soundstage was absolutely immense. To even call it a sound-"stage" is to do it a disservice. It was a sound-amphitheater. Instruments sounded like they were many feet away, in all directions around me. The drums were physically behind me, the strings to my front and left, etc. The detail and resolution were astounding.

At least, compared to what I had ever heard before or since. I was only 20 at the time, and did not own any audio equipment of any kind, beyond a pair of $50 Sennheiser on-ear headphones.

I have been wanting to get back to that kind of sound ever since, and I'm finally starting to have enough money to buy some basic audio gear, under $1000.

The reason I'm not posting this in the "Shopping and Setup Help Desk" thread is because I'm not actually looking for suggestions about what to buy specifically.

Rather, I'm wanting to know what part of the auditory chain is most responsible for the great sound that I heard, those years ago.

• Was it the Denon D2000's? My understanding is that they're good headphones, but should have a smaller soundstage than a pair of open-backed headphones. Yet, the Sennheiser HD 6XX's I currently use sound much, much smaller. The sound is barely outside my skull, let alone a dozen feet away from it.
• Was it the amplifier or DAC they were using at the store? This equipment was unfortunately hidden from view, so I have no idea what it was. Right now, I use an SDAC from GRACE, running directly from my computer, and powering my HD 6XX's directly. My intention was to buy a Schitt Stack, such as the Modius DAC and the LYR amp (The Lyr because it looks great, can operate as a solid-state amp, and also gives me the option to hear tube sound for the first time), but I'm not dead-set on this specific product set.
• Was it a pre-amp? I have no idea if they even had one in the audio chain that was powering the headphones.
• Was it the music files themselves? I try to purchase only .flac music files when I can, though I still haven't found a good place to buy those from. I use 7Digital, but it doesn't feel trustworthy. I often wonder if the .flac files I'm buying are really just the .mp3's, converted.

• Was it everything together? I mean, of course it was, I know that your music will only sound as good as the weakest link in the chain, but given that I already have some HD 6XX's, and only have around $1000 to spend on amps and DACs, am I likely to be able to get noticeably better sound than my current setup, running off the GRACE SDAC?

Any thoughts are appreciated, thank you!

I’ve been to Bay Bloor many many times, I even lived a 10 minute walk away….

I never noticed anything special dsp wise about their headphone wall so I would guess that the headphone just really worked for you. Have you tried a Denon D2000 since?

I think the headphone makes 80-90% of the difference and everything else adds the remaining…

Find the headphone that works for you and build a system around it, it’s never worked for me to get a headphone everyone else says is amazing and build a system around it unless I like the phones to begin with.

 

[Whazzzup]

1) HP
2) tough call music server
3) tough call pre amp
4) DAC
5 cables, interconnects, usb
6) power

IMO, 40 % spent server 40% pre amp and the dac and HP will scale up

 

[earmonger]

I have to say: I find it a little hard to imagine a reputable audio store secretly gimmicking its headphone display with miraculous 3D sound. Customers would plug in their expensive headphones at home, get roundly disappointed and return them as defective.

I have seen headphone displays that push certain brands with volume differences, intentionally or unintentionally due to varying sensitivity. And I'd hope everything on display is adequately amped. But I would doubt there's much more going on.

Incidentally I just stumbled across stereo imaging tests on the wonderful site audiocheck.net. See how these work out on your own headphones, and maybe try them via your phone at the audio store if you can.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

 

[castleofargh]

Incidentally I just stumbled across stereo imaging tests on the wonderful site audiocheck.net. See how these work out on your own headphones, and maybe try them via your phone at the audio store if you can.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

These test signals are not designed for headphone use.

OP, my guess would be that you did get impressed at the time, but however good it really was, it was probably not as good as you remember now. When we remember events fondly, we do tend to exaggerate them and remember that new version until we "reconstruct", sort of, the memory again, and again... It can become quite divorced from reality if we recall it many times over the years(same for traumatizing stuff).
All that to say, I'm not optimistic that what you remember is possible.
There are also various factors that not everybody handles the same way. Like, maybe you got the right frequency response for more or less frontal audio(or for the sides), and if you were in a large place, it helped your brain imagine a wild stage. Perhaps the same music with the same gear at home facing a wall would have felt like it had poor imaging and not distance at all.
I think standard stereo on headphone is crap, because it's not coherent with how we're used to hearing localization cues in real life with an actual sound source at some distance. Speakers are also wrong in a way, but it's much easier to get tricked, and we all pretty much have the same experience. I'm saying, if you're looking for more space on headphones, you can try a HD800 or something famous for pushing stuff a little big further for most listeners, and you can get a balanced amplifier and whatever DAC that someone called "holographic" or what was it I just read in a front page review... "atmospheric stage"

I don't think that's a great use of your money. To get an impressive and maybe realistic image on headphones, you first need to become convinced you're not using headphones. How much effort is required for your brain to be tricked depends a lot on you. Some people talk about huge distances perceived with basic stereo, and I can guaranty 110% that I would never feel that with their gear. Some people get better impressions of frontal depth with something as simple as crossfeed. Some with luck can feel nice HRTF convolution feeling from a random 3D surround whatever effect. Some need custom HRTF(so measuring speaker sounds with binaural mics at your ears), and for the unlucky guys like myself, I need custom convolution, head tracking based on measuring plenty of directions, and I need some visual anchors, like a screen or speakers at some distance, that help me believe the sound comes from them(as a consequence, I never feel a giant stage in a small room even with measurements and simulation of a huge room).

I've read in a few papers that some of the most expansive(not most accurate) image you can create in your mind is to get in a completely dark room and just give it time. That sort of works for me(again, only if I lay down so my head doesn't move at all), but I still get a better experience on headphones/IEM with more realistic audio cues, head tracking and "visual anchors".

I could have made it short and just say I agree with GREQ on DSP VS picking some classic stereo headphone rig^_^.

 

[TyTB]

In my opinion, headphones then dac make the biggest difference. Then amp and finally files. My Denons sound better on better sources, so I believe what you experienced was a combination. Also, things can initially sound incredible but our tastes change, as does our hearing. It's possible you might not get that feeling back even if you recreated the entire setup.

This was my understanding as well, which is why I made sure to get at least a basic external DAC, the Grace SDAC, instead of trying to run my headphones directly from my motherboard. There is a noticeable difference in quality and sound stage.

However, I guess I figured that difference would continue to increase if I got a better DAC and an actual Amp, and it was this assumption that's a mistake. It seems everyone here (and on Reddit) feel that I've already pretty much maxed out the quality I can expect from a DAC, and that more expensive ones just offer more features or slightly better performance in very niche situations. They feel the point of diminishing returns is around $300 for an Amp and DAC combined.

90% the headphones. Unless you're really starving your headphone for power, better amps and DACs are just going to refine and get that last little bit from your headphones, but they're not transformative. The HD6XX has many benefits, but they're notorious for having very narrow staging, so they're the exact wrong headphone for what you want. Sell them and look elsewhere. You'd be better off with something like the Hifiman Ananda Nano.

It's funny, I did months of research before settling on my HD 6XX's, I watched tons of review videos, read lots of articles, made forum posts here, and the consensus back then seemed to be that they were a phenomenal pair of headphones with a very good sound stage. Now, however, everyone seems to just laugh at them. It's been an interesting shift.

I agree that headphones are by far the most important part of the chain, I'd say 85%. Then, if they are power-hungry (like my beloved, comfortable and open-sounding Audio-Technica ATH-R70X), get an amp that will supply what they need -- but an under-$100 Monolith Liquid Spark or Schiit Magni or VE Megatron will suffice. The source has to be good, but most sources (with the exception of low-bitrate sites like YouTube, Soundcloud and basic Spotify) are already good -- Tidal and Qobuz both offer high-bitrate streaming.

Yes, everything in the chain will affect the sound, but it should all serve the headphones first. When the headphones are well-tuned to begin with, you don't need other parts of the chain to compensate -- all they have to do is provide an accurate signal, not one that is hyped up or sculpted or otherwise second-guessing the music.

If you still have a good headphone store in the vicinity, take some of your best-known music and try an assortment, making sure that you have volume as matched as possible. Otherwise poke around here and other headphone sites, narrow things down to a handful and see what you can audition via mail-order return policies. Some places charge restocking fees (because they are then going to have to sell an open-box return at a discount) and others don't, but do limit your choices rather than abusing vendor generosity.

You seem to be saying the same stuff as the two commenters before you, which helps to really solidify that this is probably the truth. Thank you for your comment.

I just got the FiiO K7 DAC/amp, and my first impressions are very good. I am an AKM fan and the K7 implementation suits my ears. All my headphones and earphones have 4.4mm balanced cables.

The K7 drives my LCD-XC with ease, presenting a big sound stage with good instrumentation. I read most of the reviews and agree with the assessments of the sound profile: tight and accurate bass, mids (vocals) clear and lifelike, treble is precise and offers clarity without and sibilance. Comfortable listening... no fatigue so far. Will burn the K7 in for a few days to see if anything changes.

Thank you for your recommendation.

I’ve been to Bay Bloor many many times, I even lived a 10 minute walk away….

I never noticed anything special dsp wise about their headphone wall so I would guess that the headphone just really worked for you. Have you tried a Denon D2000 since?

I think the headphone makes 80-90% of the difference and everything else adds the remaining…

Find the headphone that works for you and build a system around it, it’s never worked for me to get a headphone everyone else says is amazing and build a system around it unless I like the phones to begin with.

Yeah I highly doubt they were using any, though I can understand why people suspect as much based on my description.

I have unfortunately not been able to find some D2000's to try since that day. When I finally had the money to consider buying them, I found out they had already been out of production for years.

1) HP
2) tough call music server
3) tough call pre amp
4) DAC
5 cables, interconnects, usb
6) power

IMO, 40 % spent server 40% pre amp and the dac and HP will scale up

Interesting, you seem to be the only person here who even mentions a pre-amp, let alone ranks it as being a tie for the second most important element. Mind explaining your rationale?

I have to say: I find it a little hard to imagine a reputable audio store secretly gimmicking its headphone display with miraculous 3D sound. Customers would plug in their expensive headphones at home, get roundly disappointed and return them as defective.

I have seen headphone displays that push certain brands with volume differences, intentionally or unintentionally due to varying sensitivity. And I'd hope everything on display is adequately amped. But I would doubt there's much more going on.

Incidentally I just stumbled across stereo imaging tests on the wonderful site audiocheck.net. See how these work out on your own headphones, and maybe try them via your phone at the audio store if you can.
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

Agreed. I would assert that the store was not using any gimmicks. I'll check out your link, thank you.

I could have made it short and just say I agree with GREQ on DSP VS picking some classic stereo headphone rig^_^.

Thank you for your detailed comment.
I would assert that the store was not using any gimmicks, as they had their various pieces of sound equipment on prominent display behind glass, right behind all the headphones, feeding directly into them, and made no mention of DSP or other software tricks.

 

[msing539]

However, I guess I figured that difference would continue to increase if I got a better DAC and an actual Amp, and it was this assumption that's a mistake. It seems everyone here (and on Reddit) feel that I've already pretty much maxed out the quality I can expect from a DAC, and that more expensive ones just offer more features or slightly better performance in very niche situations. They feel the point of diminishing returns is around $300 for an Amp and DAC combined.

I have an R2R dac. That's why I listed dac directly after headphones, because it makes the most difference in my setup.

 

[TyTB]

I have an R2R dac. That's why I listed dac directly after headphones, because it makes the most difference in my setup.

Yes, I'm just saying it seems most people feel that I've already maxed out the returns I can expect from a DAC, since I'm already using a Grace SDAC. They all say I won't experience any difference using a better DAC, so long as I'm still using the HD 6XX's. I would first need better headphones to realize the effects of a better DAC.

 

[Whazzzup]

1) HP
2) tough call music server
3) tough call pre amp
4) DAC
5 cables, interconnects, usb
6) power

IMO, 40 % spent server 40% pre amp and the dac and HP will scale up

Interesting, you seem to be the only person here who even mentions a pre-amp, let alone ranks it as being a tie for the second most important element. Mind explaining your rationale?

Look at my sig. what’s most important what goes in, server, what comes out pre amp. Imo these two had the most impact in sound stage in building my rig. Your dac and hp will scale with emphasis on these, imo


Just realized there is a budget, not a true what if. Manufacturers are going to all in one, streamer dsp, dac, preamp, amp solutions. For two reasons, it’s less expensive for the consumer and they get to capture all of this markets audio dollars. Why let ‘em find out about innous, antipodes, or woo. So either way, good luck in building the system.