I Don't Understand You Subjective Guys
Aug 14, 2012 at 12:29 PM Post #706 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris J /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
This is a weird argument.
What is the point?
The audio designer does not need to listen to his audio design?

 
Well, when you're designing by the numbers, as the Beta 22 and O2 were, it's rather superfluous, isn't it?
 
se
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 12:34 PM Post #708 of 861
Quote:
 
And as I've said already, when it comes to the enjoyment of reproduced music, I'm entirely a subjectivist.

 
If that's true, would you care to elaborate on where the objective approach to design leaves you unfulfilled enough to label yourself a subjectivist?
 
Quote:
He only listened to make sure there wasn't something funny going on that might have escaped simulation and the measurements taken of the actual prototype.
 
That gets to the very point some (not all) of us were trying to make.  That even the objective approach is bounded by cognitive and epistemological limitation however small or large one might feel those are.
 
Absolutely nothing in the design goals about it being a good sounding amp. Effectively what he was saying was that good numbers = good sound.
 
Apart from the inherent contradiction between those two propositions, I'd still like to hear more impressions from B22/O2 listeners relative to each other.  From the limited few I've seen it is hardly conclusive that an objective standard of transparency has been attained making the two indiscernable from each other.  Might as well include the Benchmark DAC1 versus the B22 as well.  Do all three sound identical?  If not, why?

 
Aug 14, 2012 at 12:46 PM Post #709 of 861
Quote:
The UHS-6S sounds better than the O2 to my ears. (Got them right in front of me - will do the long term black-box tests next.) The UHS-6S actually has a better suite of measurements which are more meaningful than the existing O2 measurements (which really are very cookie-cutter type measurements):
 
http://www.leckertonaudio.com/2011/01/uha-6s-harmonic-distortion/
 
I like seeing across the audio band, THD+N, D2, D3 at low/realistic power levels (1mW and 10mW) into varying loads (32ohms and 300ohms). The astute objectivist easily sees how much more meaningful Nick's measurements are compared to others'.
 
Based on this objective data, people should be going gaga over this amp. For $279, it even includes a USB/Optical/Coax DAC, and it's truly pocket portable too. And as I've said, it subjectively sounds good too - the best portable amp I've ever heard short of that new $$$ ALO piece.

 
I hardly want to blast Nick for providing more meaningful data than pretty much everybody else on the planet, but I'm really not convinced that what's there is more comprehensive and meaningful than what's available on the O2.
 
First of all, 10mW is indeed overkill for many headphones, but it's definitely not for some planar magnetics, which have impedance not that far off from 32 ohms.  It's also on the low side for some other headphones, at least for a loud peak.  Elsewhere he lists power levels for 1% THD+N, but you need to do some guessing with regards to where the knee is.  Are you faulting others' measurements for not including more information at lower levels?  Would you expect an amp to have higher THD at low output levels than higher output levels (note: not THD+N, since noise will dominate at lower levels) ?  I thought a point of benchmarks was to stress the device, knowing that performance under less stress is going to be better.
 
Secondly, there's nothing on reactive load drive, stability, overload or clipping conditions tests (which could be actually relevant, given the modest output levels it's capable of), or anything of that nature.
 
Frequency response and range are given but not graphed.  That's fine by me.  Phase is not mentioned, but there should be low deviation considering the FR.
 
There's also nothing on channel balance.  Sure, channel balance is very good, but it's unlisted and can definitely be a big deal.  For that matter, there are no crosstalk results—granted, pretty much every design of this nature should have plenty low crosstalk.
 
There are also no multitone tests!  Of course, with THD+N that low, I wouldn't expect much IMD either.  Seems like a fairly serious omission though.
 
I think the big draw here is plotting D2 and D3 vs. frequency?  If you asked me, I'd count these as cookie-cutter type measurements too, not that I negatively associate any of the standard measurements.  This isn't like transducers, where there may be sharp anomalies at certain frequencies.  (If we  were looking at transducers, the first thing other than FR and maybe CSDs I'd want to see is THD / D2 / D3 / etc. vs. frequency.)  Anyhow, if THD+N is already low, this already tells you that D2, D3, D4, D5, D6, ... are all low too.  Other graphs already indicate that it's usually D2 dominating, sometimes with D3 about the same level, so it's not like there's probably some secret D7 spike that's hidden under the rug.  There is THD+N vs. frequency for different loads for the O2 available, as well as spectra for 20 Hz and 20 kHz tests at different loads—in addition to the 1 kHz tests and IMD tests, I would consider the frequency range pretty much covered, considering that we're not looking at transducers.
 
 
Anyhow, the issue with the lineup is just output power levels:  that's it.  And even though these are relatively low, they're plenty for most headphones and most tastes.  I agree that more people should be interested.
 
 
 
Absolutely nothing in the design goals about it being a good sounding amp. Effectively what he was saying was that good numbers = good sound.

 
I'm not that familiar with every posting on this subject, but is it necessarily true that he's saying that good numbers = good sound (yeah, that's the natural implication, but can we say more)?  It could just be a design exercise to meet all the criteria, leaving other people to judge whether or not the design was successful in terms of sounding good.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 12:51 PM Post #710 of 861
Quote:
Why are we talking about Ti again?

 
It goes back to germanium's paraphrasing you saying what a travesty it is if something such as an amplifier were designed and built without having listened to it for the purpose of tweaking it to get the best sound by ear rather than my measurements.
 
I'd been asking why that would necessarily be such a travesty and offered up the Beta 22 as just such an example. Ti is the designer of the Beta 22.
 
se
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:01 PM Post #711 of 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Eddy /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I gave an example of the Beta 22 as an amplifier that was designed purely "by the numbers" and wasn't listened to in the end to tweak it to sound better by ear. And while it's not my particular cup o' tea, many people love it.
 
se

 
Steve, why was the Beta 22 not your cup o' tea and what amps do you prefer over it?
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:05 PM Post #712 of 861
Quote:
It goes back to germanium's paraphrasing you saying what a travesty it is if something such as an amplifier were designed and built without having listened to it for the purpose of tweaking it to get the best sound by ear rather than my measurements.
 
I'd been asking why that would necessarily be such a travesty and offered up the Beta 22 as just such an example. Ti is the designer of the Beta 22.
 
se

 
I don't mean to answer for anybody else, but I think the big problem people would have is if everybody designed amps that way (if "no one ever dared" to do otherwise).  Then there would be no alternatives.  But I wonder if people have a problem with anybody taking that approach, so your question stands.
 
 
Actually, now that purrin's back, can I get a response to #629?
here
 
or is the difference in tweaking things to try to change sound quality once everything passes the checklist?
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:11 PM Post #713 of 861
I know Ti in person a little bit so I wouldn't presume to speak for him. He's a true engineer who builds stuff based on parts spec sheets, simulations, etc. But I don't think it's a black and white as some of you guys make it out to be.
 
I never said it was a travesty if an amplifier were built on spec sheets and not tweaked for sound. I just said it would be a travesty if all amplifiers were built that way because no one dared to trust his ears.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:12 PM Post #714 of 861
I just dont understand, why this thread can get this long/.//
 
like my ref5 dac the 4 PCM1704UK inside will cost 200 already by themself.
the cost of building the whole dac  can't be less then 200.
and i do believe it is better then a 200 dollars dac which used a 2 dollars dac chip
 
like some other mentioned,
a cheap  honda civic can get you to the destination as good as when using a Ferrari.
but the
1) the Touch,
2) the sound,
3) the Look
4) The handling
are completely different,
 
same as the equipment,
the Fit and finish of the DAC and the highquality material used to build the DAC( the casing, case can be quite expensive),
may not make the sound better,
but , those can give you the Touch, the Feel, and the Look
that worth money.
 
I think most people will not just want to have a Ferrari with a honda Civic Body installed  instead
 
tell me which one is more exciting when just looking at it.
ODAC
http://www.headnhifi.com/index.php/shop/objective/odac

 
 
 
or
V800
http://www.violectric.de/Pages/en/products/dacv800.php

 
 
or
Ref5
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/audiogd/1.html

 
 
or
Schiit Bifrost
http://schiit.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=0&products_id=7

 
 
many of the higher price Gears always have the reason.
 
I do want a ferrari.
 or even just a lotus
 
 
and not a honda civic SI.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:14 PM Post #715 of 861
Quote:
 
This is a weird argument.
What is the point?
The audio designer does not need to listen to his audio design?

 
When you understand the theory - the circuit design and the behaviour of the components - you can design a circuit to amplify a signal without any "critical listening", which is what TK did with the B22. It's unusual but it's the closest thing to a "model" amp I've ever seen (but I haven't seen much).
 
An "audio designer" is still dealing with an electrical system. In rare cases like this one he might choose to measure the electrical signal directly rather than passing it through a transducer and into his ear. It's far more accurate to use a scope than an ear.
 
 
 
Thanks Steve.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:21 PM Post #716 of 861
Quote:
Actually, now that purrin's back, can I get a response to #629?
here
 
or is the difference in tweaking things to try to change sound quality once everything passes the checklist?

 
The issue is what set of measurements in the "checklist" are we taking about. We need to get very specific. IMO, THD+N (at 1kHz at some reference dbFS level), SMPTE IMD, etc. does not tell us very much.
 
One of the best set of amplifier measurements I've seen are here: http://www.leckertonaudio.com/2011/01/uha-6s-harmonic-distortion/, especially the last eight. And even then, I wonder if they are sufficient for such a checklist.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:21 PM Post #717 of 861
Quote:
It's far more accurate to use a scope than an ear.

 
Only if your aim is to design in avoidance of potential issues w/ ear/brain.  Otherwise, using a scope is not as accurate if the desired output is to be measured/evaluated by ear/brain.  It is more precise, but much less accurate if 'how it sounds' is the design objective rather than 'how it measures'.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:23 PM Post #718 of 861
Quote:
An "audio designer" is still dealing with an electrical system. In rare cases like this one he might choose to measure the electrical signal directly rather than passing it through a transducer and into his ear. It's far more accurate to use a scope than an ear.

 
Most do both. At the least the ones who I know personally and feel make good stuff. I hope an amp designer also listening to his creation to tweak it isn't a crime! But I do feel that an amp designer not measuring at least certain basic aspects of his creation is.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:24 PM Post #719 of 861
Both you and Magick Man should educate yourselves a little more before "calling BS".


That's great, but I wasn't calling BS on the B22's posted specs, just on the claims that no one performed any critical listening before the parts went into production.

FYI, the Objective evangelists can keep going on about this all they want, but it's already been said that SS isn't just a "graphs and plots only" forum. Both views are tolerated, so getting individual opinions banned from here isn't going to happen.
 
Aug 14, 2012 at 1:48 PM Post #720 of 861
Quote:
 
If that's true, would you care to elaborate on where the objective approach to design leaves you unfulfilled enough to label yourself a subjectivist?
 

 
Because I don't listen to reproduced music for the purpose of satisfying any purely objective goals or ends. I listen to reproduced music for the purpose of pure hedonistic, subjective enjoyment and pleasure. As a child of the 60's, I'm simply applying the "If it feels good, do it" to reproduced audio; if it sounds good, it is good, numbers be damned. Further, for me its ultimately all about the experience, or gestalt if you will. And that transcends the sound waves beating on my eardrums. It also encompasses other things such as aesthetics and philosophy.
 
So that's how I approach both the reproduction side of things as well as my own design work.
 
se
 

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