I bet you didn't expect HeadRoom's K701 graph to look like this...
Mar 12, 2006 at 5:33 PM Post #106 of 133
Very early stuff was done on differtent head. Then we did a bunch on this head, but found there were some opportunities to make mistakes. These mistakes were primarily sealed headphones in that that if you didn't get a good seal you could get a significant drop off in the bass. I'm sure some of these still exist on the web site.

But the graphs for unsealed designes are pretty reliable and repeatable. I've seen us measure HD650s maybe a dozen times over the last couple of years and the graphs are spot on each time.

I want to caution two things: The graphs don't tell the whole story, not by a long shot; and generally they are legitimate measurements.

They are allways done the same way with the same amp and set to the same acoustic levels. It's worth mentioning that peoples impressions of a particular pair of headphones here is allways done with a variety of amps and ears, so I would contend that the graphs are a legitimate point of information to directly compare on pair of cans against another. If the graph shows a can as having more bass than another, you can bet it does. But it won't tell you if it's tight or muddy.

Someone asked if we use pink noise or a sweep: we do sweep the audio signal. We have tried averaged pink noise measurements and they turn out identical but a bit noisy. So we use sweeps as it is much faster and more accurate.

On the Fletcher-Munsen curves: What you want is flat response out in the far field and let the human hearing system to do what it wants. Not only are there Fletcher-Munsen curves but most people have places where their own ears have 5db difference left to right. Your head gets used to hearing your ears over time, whatever the response.

The problem with headphones is that they bypass the far field and couple directly to your ears, thereby removing some portion of the individuals acoustic filtering of the far field. So the headphone has to compensate for this short circuiting of the normal acoustic.

Our measurements are essentialy done at the ear drum. We then use compensation curves to dial out the ear canal resonances. The curves you see are essentially the frequency response as measured at the entry to the ear canal.

I'm of the opinion that we should smooth the curves SIGNIFICANTLY more than we do. It seems to me that the only information that we can really get out of a pair of cans is about the gross frequency response. The remaining details may be of some use but mostly obscure the general trend line. I'm considering getting rid of the finer detail in the graph.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 5:41 PM Post #107 of 133
For the sake of objective evaluation I would appreciate it (and I imagine many others would, too) if you would please leave in the fine details. I like to know as much about the measurable specifications of potential headphones as possible. Obfuscating the data only serves to potentiate misinformation, and there is no harm at all in keeping the information there.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 5:46 PM Post #108 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
That's not really true. There are standards in headphone measurements, just not one single standard. There are a number of "standardized" ways of measuring headphones and the come out with different spectral results. And the Head Acoustice dummy head we use has a very specific outer ear "pinna" that is designed to have a very specific average set of reflections and acoustic absorption coefficients. Please be carefull not to just assume you know things.


Hi Tyll,

IMHO saying there's no a unique standard, or there's no standard is more or less the same thing, for what I wanted to say.
Ok, there are many standardized ways to measure headphones (I didn't doubt about this, of course there are), but, as you've said, they have different spectral result (obviously).
So deducing real acoustical behaviour only from a frequency response (no dynamic measure, no time domain measure, only freq response, and "changing") tends to give wrong results (see the bass "debate" about K701 and HD650). No intention to say thing that I don't know.

Andrew
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 5:55 PM Post #109 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
Very early stuff was done on differtent head.

etc

... CUT...


Our measurements are essentialy done at the ear drum. We then use compensation curves to dial out the ear canal resonances. The curves you see are essentially the frequency response as measured at the entry to the ear canal.

I'm of the opinion that we should smooth the curves SIGNIFICANTLY more than we do. It seems to me that the only information that we can really get out of a pair of cans is about the gross frequency response. The remaining details may be of some use but mostly obscure the general trend line. I'm considering getting rid of the finer detail in the graph.



Thanks very much for the precisation.

Having compared many listening to freq resp measurements I strongly agree with your last consideration.

A question: do you plan to made some measure in the time domain (time waterfall, or similar), or in the dynamic one? Or also distortion (i.e 2nd, 3rd, 4th armonic) in function of frequency (for example at two different levels of dB?). They could bring some very interesting info to develop compared to the listening.

Andrew
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 7:08 PM Post #110 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley
Obfuscating the data only serves to potentiate misinformation, and there is no harm at all in keeping the information there.


This thread shows that people are hazarding all sorts of guesses about the high frequency information that may have no basis in reality. I know quite a bit about what's going on in these measurements, but I have found no legitimate way to understand the differences between cans regarding this high frequency detail. I can understand your desire to see the detail, but I'm pretty sure you don't have any idea what to do with it...unless you happen to be an acoustics specialist in hearing and localization. And even in that case, this high frequency information will be relevant to the specific pinnae on the dummy head.

When I look at the graphs I have to mentall smooth things out befor they seem to corelate with what I'm hearing and I'd rather not have to do that mentally because I'm prone to be wrong in the direction of my assumptions.

We've talked about it internally befor and what is likely to apear slowly over time is a significantly smoothed and simplified graph data, but with an advanced user option to display higher resolution graphs.

About time domain and distortion data. We will be developing some additional measurement information as we find relevance in other measures. I think the FR graphs can tell you about the bass-mids-treble response of the headphone. We also measure distortion and I think it may have some relevance, but I'm not sure what it is yet. We measure isolation which is reasonable useful, and we measure impedance which has modest usability. The FR data can be mathematically manipulated to get Impulse and Phase response. So we can show it, but I'm not sure it really tells you anything particularly new. As to measureing waterfall plots or distortion vs. amplitude or frequency change in driving signal,we've played with these a bit and nothing particularly noteworthy has shown itself yet.

As with all things, we'll slowly but surely improve our measurement capabilities. The best guidance I can give you is thet are but one way of looking at a pair of headphones and will give you a class of legitimate data for comparison, but listening is what counts most.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:08 PM Post #111 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
We've talked about it internally befor and what is likely to apear slowly over time is a significantly smoothed and simplified graph data, but with an advanced user option to display higher resolution graphs.



This sounds like an ideal solution, and shows your commitment to helping all types of headphone listeners. Thanks a ton, Tyll!
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:34 PM Post #112 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens
We've talked about it internally befor and what is likely to apear slowly over time is a significantly smoothed and simplified graph data, but with an advanced user option to display higher resolution graphs.


Speaking of simplified data, I made some more averaging and charts using Excel, and here are my simplified versions of the responses of the headphones discussed in this thread. Maybe what you guys are thinking about is some simplification like this Tyll, on a per range basis?

What I did was to compute the averages per range, dividing the ranges as follows:

Lower bass: 20-80 Hz (2 octaves)
Upper bass: 80-300 Hz (2 octaves)
Midrange: 300-3000 Hz (~3 octaves)
Lower Treble: 3000-10000 Hz (~2 octaves)
Upper treble: 10000-20000 Hz (1 octave)

Could have put treble all together, but then the deviation would be higher, and also, I think it is interesting to know in detail the lower treble separated from the upper-most treble or last octave. Mainly because about half of this last octave is not heard by most adults, so the brightness perception of a headphone comes mostly from the lower treble and the lower half of the upper treble.


The hight of the bars indicate the average, and the thin line protruding from it (vertically, and further up or down), indicates de deviation within that range.

Here's the charts and the .zip in case someone wants to download it:

Summarized_Response_K701.JPG


Summarized_Response_K601.JPG


Summarized_Response_DT880.JPG


Summarized_Response_HD650.JPG
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:42 PM Post #113 of 133
These are nice charts. I like the frequency breakdown as well.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:50 PM Post #114 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley
This sounds like an ideal solution, and shows your commitment to helping all types of headphone listeners. Thanks a ton, Tyll!


Not at all, for me. I want the bare truth, not a pleasing lie.
smily_headphones1.gif
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 8:58 PM Post #115 of 133
Well, interesting that the Beyer DT990's frequency response actually does a pretty good job depticting what it sounds like. I suspect that the others do too, really...

graphCompare.php
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 9:16 PM Post #116 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea
Not at all, for me. I want the bare truth, not a pleasing lie.
smily_headphones1.gif



Me, too, which is why I praised him for his decision to have both a "what seems to really matter" smoothed curve in addition to the advanced user detailed curve. This is the best of both worlds, a good resource for those who wish to see the surface outline showing the beauty of the whole, and those who wish to dig into the sinew of the machine to look for imperfections
smily_headphones1.gif
.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 9:25 PM Post #117 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab
Well, interesting that the Beyer DT990's frequency response actually does a pretty good job depticting what it sounds like. I suspect that the others do too, really...

graphCompare.php



That's for sure.
smily_headphones1.gif



Many people are f.r. sceptics purely out of convenience (IMHO).
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 9:28 PM Post #118 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by zancxia
phones.gif

I mean, just look after the Beyer peak.... most of the headphones go to -28 db, while the DT880 stick around -7db.
rolleyes.gif



Actually nothing goes lower than -24dB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markot86
I'll say this again; anyone who even SLIGHTLY enjoys bass in their headphones should RUN AWAY from the k601's. I was even using the micro stack, an amp that does help the bass, and man, it's not like it was kind of there, no, it was nonexistant.


I love bass (not a basshead, but a good strong foundation), and I have been loving my K601's. Obviously they are lean on bass compared to my HF1's with flats and my KSC35's, but they still produce bass quite nicely.
 
Mar 12, 2006 at 9:29 PM Post #119 of 133
Quote:

Originally Posted by atx
This is a natural way of justifying what they already have so that they don't have to spend anymore money getting the K701.
biggrin.gif



That's just a bit less than my monthly income, not to mention avaliability problems. 501's would be a nice update to my current system, not to mention my precious 240DF's, the flattest in the World.
 

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