[thomas]

"Detail" is a subjective term that's hard to relate directly to the performance of a specific component- a lack of detail could be caused by distortion, poor high frequency response, or compressed dynamics, which could be solved by improving the amplifier. Anything that makes the output signal closer to the recorded signal will increase the apperent "detail" in the music.

The reason i recommend upgrading the amp is because it is usually much worse than the DAC in a modern portable- With delta-sigma technology, even the 75 cent DAC in a cheap discman can put out surprisingly good sound- In most cases the DAC isn't the limiting factor in sound quality.

The part that has really suffered in the last 5 years is the headphone amp, where attempts to reduce power consumption (and supply voltages) have resulted in underperforming amps that distort heavily when presented with a difficult load.

Also, modern panasonics use lossy compression on the audio unless an amp is connected to the line out (they don't have digital outputs in North American models) so simply connecting the amp will force the player to switch off compression and give significantly more detail.

Players that use lossy compression all the time probably will never be able to produce good sound, so make sure you find a model with linear or defeatable antiskip.

That said, the DAC also plays an important role in creating the sense of "detail", and the garbage in, garbage out saying does apply. Some brands may be worse than others- my experience with the DAC's in modern Sonys has been good but from what i've heard, panasonics are much worse. Upgrading the DAC will definately increase the detail and overall sound quality, but it comes at a price- If you're on a budget a cheap headphone amp will give a noticable improvement without breaking the bank.


And might I recommend upgrading the headphones first? A good pair of entry-level audiophile headphones like the Grado SR-60 ($129 CDN) would probably make more of a difference than changing CD players, adding amps, or changing DACs...

 

[bhd812]

keep it going gals and guys your all doing great.


some great r&d reading here

 

[ServinginEcuador]

I'm with you on this one! I wish that Sony and some of the other manufacturers would start releasing a really good sound PCDP again. They can do it, but in their mind they can mass market the total junk players that they now have, and make a huge profit on them, so why produce audiophile PCDPs again? How much of the market would buy an expensive, around $250, PCDP in a day and age when MP3 and dirt cheap PCDPs are everywhere?

 

[HiWire]

I think a nice letter-writing campaign to one address might do the trick... if over 100 people write praising the sound quality of the DNE-300 or D-EJ2000, for example, and demanding more performance, Sony would have to take notice!

 

[Mr Do]

If are primary concern is sound quality then are definition of portablity has to change to meet the current technology. Idealy we would fit are entire music in one tiny box and it sounds like the it's coming from stereophile clas a components. Odviusly this isn't going to happen. I woud like to se mid fi company's such as rotel, denon, marantz, nad, etc... develope a line of products for portablity. A pcdp or transport that would have internal memory, play cd's, and mp3 encoded discs and hook up to an extenal dac and or headphone amp. Is this still concidered portable by condesing are home seperates to hand held seperates? I blieve headroom made an atempt with the radishack cd 3000 and audio alchemey dac. I feel it's time for an audio revelotion and somebody makes the next cd 3000 with the new technology.

Later

 

[intlplby]

basically current technology provides manufacturers with what they need to make $texas

so basically you all are simply arguing against the speed of technology.... the issue here really is only relevant to the amping circuitry

as far as battery life... it is only a matter of time until a better battery technology solution solves the battery life problem to 15-20 hours and when that happens you will all be arguing about not getting 48-72 hours

as far as quality it is an issue of better storage media (hard disk) and solid state storage media (ram)

when the hard drives get to 100 gigs and small it will make sense to put FLAC on the harddrive and hopefully the ram will be caught up to reduce the increased harddrive accessing


the technology still isn't there yet to do everything.....

 

[EightyEight]

Quote:

Originally Posted by intlplby it is only a matter of time until a better battery technology solution solves the battery life problem to 15-20 hours and when that happens you will all be arguing about not getting 48-72 hours

so true

In my opinion, sound quality on the go would definitely be a PLUS, but I don't think I would give much attention to the "sound quality" to justify how much I would have to pay for such thing

.

 

[Jazz1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/04/bu...ey/04digi.html

 

[Oddball]

Good read...and I was pleasantly surprised by The New York Times's take, taking into consideration that they love the iPod (but so does everyone else).

I'll become a devout follower of the iPod and iTunes if Apple offered a Lossless music download store. Heck, I might even buy a Mac! It just bugs me when people call 128 kbps cd-quality. I could see calling 320 kbps perhaps near-cd quality, but not anything less than 192 kbps.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oddball It just bugs me when people call 128 kbps cd-quality. I could see calling 320 kbps perhaps near-cd quality, but not anything less than 192 kbps.

Thats a pet peeve of mine too. I have never heard a good 128kbps file. I used to listen to CD's exclusively, then I thought I would give MP3 a try when I heard all the claims of quality. Plus, Creative had just realeased the Jukebox 1 and it looked like a great new technology.

When I first listened to the 128kbps MP3s on the JB, I was really disappointed. Sold it and got an MD player instead. Sound was fantastic and I couldn't really tell the difference between my CDs.

I finally came back when I heard EAC extracted WAVs encoded into LAME VBR MP3s at 192kbps. Got me to buy the JB3. NowI am only annoyed about the lack of gapless playback.

The only problem is I have too many portables. CD, MD, HD. Hard to choose when I walk out the door, but I love them all.

Portable audio. Got to love it.

 

[Newman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas "Detail" is a subjective term that's hard to relate directly to the performance of a specific component- a lack of detail could be caused by distortion, poor high frequency response, or compressed dynamics, which could be solved by improving the amplifier. Anything that makes the output signal closer to the recorded signal will increase the apperent "detail" in the music. The reason i recommend upgrading the amp is because it is usually much worse than the DAC in a modern portable- With delta-sigma technology, even the 75 cent DAC in a cheap discman can put out surprisingly good sound- In most cases the DAC isn't the limiting factor in sound quality. The part that has really suffered in the last 5 years is the headphone amp, where attempts to reduce power consumption (and supply voltages) have resulted in underperforming amps that distort heavily when presented with a difficult load. Also, modern panasonics use lossy compression on the audio unless an amp is connected to the line out (they don't have digital outputs in North American models) so simply connecting the amp will force the player to switch off compression and give significantly more detail. Players that use lossy compression all the time probably will never be able to produce good sound, so make sure you find a model with linear or defeatable antiskip. That said, the DAC also plays an important role in creating the sense of "detail", and the garbage in, garbage out saying does apply. Some brands may be worse than others- my experience with the DAC's in modern Sonys has been good but from what i've heard, panasonics are much worse. Upgrading the DAC will definately increase the detail and overall sound quality, but it comes at a price- If you're on a budget a cheap headphone amp will give a noticable improvement without breaking the bank. And might I recommend upgrading the headphones first? A good pair of entry-level audiophile headphones like the Grado SR-60 ($129 CDN) would probably make more of a difference than changing CD players, adding amps, or changing DACs...

Great info. I think I got quite a bit of that, and the rest I can do some research on, but this certainly points to the complexity of the issue. I take it this is more than a casual area of interest for you? One question, I’m not quite clear about what you’re saying here:
Quote:

Also, modern panasonics use lossy compression on the audio unless an amp is connected to the line out (they don't have digital outputs in North American models) so simply connecting the amp will force the player to switch off compression and give significantly more detail.

Are you saying that connecting an external amp will force off the compression? That would be great. How does that work?

Speaking of compression and anti-skip, I think I can use that to explain what I mean by loss of detail. I’m not thinking of distortion or loss of high end when I’m saying that, I’m thinking more of the loss of detail which you get by switching on the anti-skip system, which I believe is related to compression. My dearly departed Panasonic had a 10 second defeatable buffer. There wasn’t a huge difference between having it on or off but it certainly was noticeable. It was much more than a minor difference, and I only used it when I was using the player in my car with its car kit (a setup that overall produced quite mediocre results.) I still think that that player sounded better with the buffer on than the current players do, but then they have bigger buffers too. Maybe there’s a relationship here? The bigger the buffer the more the sound is degraded?

Re: headphones. Thanks for the suggestion. I’ve been getting more interested in getting a better set the more I’ve read this board, (but I didn’t think they were the cause of the problem I was hearing since I was using the same headphones with all of the players I listened to.) I was giving some thought to the Sennheiser HD 280 Pro’s and perhaps ordering them from Headroom. How would you compare the Grado’s to these?

 

[bhd812]

some important eyes are on this thread, keep it going



for your future

 

[Newman]

Well, for my part I test drove a pair of Sennheiser HD 570’s recently. They are the ones specialized for classical music and they were a little too symphonic for my tastes, but they did produce some very nice sounds. They are significantly better than my last headphones, but not light-years better. And although they were an improvement overall, they did not bring back all the loss of detail. I suspect that they didn’t bring back any of it but that they did reveal some other new textures. I saw someone else here comparing portable players (Lise maybe?) and they described one as sounding like a veil had been lifted. That’s a good description. The new players sound veiled in comparison to my old player. I don’t know what causes that so I don’t know how to address it. I haven’t tried out the high end Sony’s yet, and I’d still like to find somewhere in Calgary that sells iRiver SlimX’s, and after that I guess I start hunting for vintage players. I haven’t fully explored the realm of professional equipment either.

 

[D555]

Want sound with quality and power?

CD: Sony D-555
MD: Sony MZ-R3
Radio: Sony SRF-A1 (If you want digital tuning Sony ICF-SW7600G with upgraded coupling capacitors)

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas The part that has really suffered in the last 5 years is the headphone amp, where attempts to reduce power consumption (and supply voltages) have resulted in underperforming amps that distort heavily when presented with a difficult load.

I agree with you here. Very-low-impedance headphones, such as the cheap Sony earbuds, are especially difficult loads for such wimpy amps. You may notice that the player's headphone-out clips badly with earbuds at even low-ish volume-control settings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas Also, modern panasonics use lossy compression on the audio unless an amp is connected to the line out (they don't have digital outputs in North American models) so simply connecting the amp will force the player to switch off compression and give significantly more detail. Players that use lossy compression all the time probably will never be able to produce good sound, so make sure you find a model with linear or defeatable antiskip.

Correcting:
Panasonic's recent North American PCDPs have no analogue line-out at all whatsoever. And Panasonic's USA website indicates that the SL-CT810 has an optical digital out - but the samples that I've seen at Fry's Electronics appear to lack such a jack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas And might I recommend upgrading the headphones first? A good pair of entry-level audiophile headphones like the Grado SR-60 ($129 CDN) would probably make more of a difference than changing CD players, adding amps, or changing DACs...

I agree! Why settle for those craptacular stock headphones when just a modest investment on better headphones will greatly improve the sound?