[spwal]

sorry,

ive found that the more you spend the worse the sound gets. its a paradox because of the greatly diminishing returns on your dollar spent when it comes to hifi.

so to get really good sound its gonna cost you. plain and simple.

do this. it worked for me....

go to the local super duper hifi store (not tweeter or anything) and demo a "entry level" 2 channel audio setup.

THen you will know why no pcdp or the like will hold a candle to a truly well setup 2 channel system in a good isolated room.

it will put things in perspective the way no forum can.

Sean

 

[127.0.0.1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by spwal THen you will know why no pcdp or the like will hold a candle to a truly well setup 2 channel system in a good isolated room.

Then you'll also know that you can't bring the entire room together with you travelling

Seriously, I agree with jmb.

IMO, comparing non portable set up with portable ones are like comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Newman]

Quote:

In my opinion, you should be a music lover first and an audiophile second.

I guess it depends on what you call an audiophile. I would not have called myself an audiophile before my beloved portable died. In fact, can one really be called an audiophile if they’re longing for the sound a few hundred dollar portable used to give them? And I love all kinds of music. I love live music, which is definitely not hi-fi. I listen to quite a bit of music with relatively low production values too. But I have a number of admittedly highly produced CDs with lots of gorgeous detail, all engineered in no doubt. Crisp cymbals that tail into other sounds. Notes that tail off to very fait but strategic points. My problem is that my old player picked all this up, but none of the new ones I’ve tried do. They all sound filtered, or clipped, or muffled. I’m not striving for the elusive perfect sound. I’m just trying to get something that will play my CD collection with the same amount of detail my old one used to give me. I don’t need it to produce all the exact same sound qualities, but I want it to reproduce all of the sound. Otherwise I’m not listening to the same music. All the little details that snatch your breath away for a second, that make you say WOW, are gone, and I want them back.

My laptop will produce this quality of sound. Why can’t I get a portable CD player that will?

A few albums that show this difference more than others are:
The Notwist - Neon Golden
Radiohead - OK Computer
Woven Hand – Blush Music
This is the level of production quality I’m talking about. This is not super obscure stuff. Why can’t I find a portable that will play all of it and not just clipped pieces of it?

 

[adhoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman Why can’t I find a portable that will play all of it and not just clipped pieces of it?

it's clear you're listening far too loud then.

 

[Newman]

I’m not using that term properly. I’m not talking about high end clipping. I’m talking about the loss of subtle detail. What would be the correct term for that? It’s like the difference between listening to a CD with a lot of detail through an average home stereo vs. a good set of headphones. Through the headphones you hear much more detail that was either lost in the reproduction of the sound through the more ham handed speakers, or the loss to the less than ideal sound qualities of the room. That’s how I feel about the sound of the new portables, from a detail sense. Some of them have some very rich very nice sounds within certain ranges, but they still lose the detail that my old one had.

My old one had a MASH DAC and I’ve heard conflicting things about whether this is responsible for the difference. The descriptions of what it does sound right, but others have told me that new players have it too but just don’t advertise it.

(I'm on the steep part of the learning curve on this technology and terminology. I was inadvertently forced into this realm by the death of my favourite sound reproduction device.

)

 

[thomas]

Quote:

This alone proves that it’s not an either/or choice. It IS NOT just a choice between convenience and sound quality, or it didn’t used to be. There used to be a spectrum of choices.

There is choice- get a good modern player like D-ej2000 or an iriver IHP, and add a headphone amp. Still not happy, then add a battery powered DAC as well. The whole combination will still be about the size of a classic CDP, and sound way better than any of them.

For the other 99% of the population who buy portables for use outside their houses, then they can still have the small size/weight, antiskip, battery life, and other features that are important for PORTABLE use.

 

[Newman]

Quote:

There is choice- get a good modern player like D-ej2000 or an iriver IHP, and add a headphone amp. Still not happy, then add a battery powered DAC as well. The whole combination will still be about the size of a classic CDP, and sound way better than any of them.

It would be nice if I could get all that in one unit, but if I can’t I can’t.

I want the quality of sound I’ve lost. I need the sound quality I’ve lost. (And that is what probably makes me an audiophile. Yeah, I know. I’m sorry about my wallet too.

)

I’ve learned quite a bit about portable amps from this site and its sponsor sites. Do you have any suggestions as to where I could go to learn more about DACs and portable DACs? Is there any way to listen to such a setup before I take out the second mortgage to buy one?

Quote:

For the other 99% of the population who buy portables for use outside their houses, then they can still have the small size/weight, antiskip, battery life, and other features that are important for PORTABLE use.

And I do need this setup to be portable, but only in the sense of moving it from A to B to C to listen to it. I won’t be jogging with it or anything like that. Is there something about the setup you’re suggesting that would keep it from being portable to this degree?

 

[bhd812]

yes i would like to know more about this dac idea to


any help?

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newman All the little details that snatch your breath away for a second, that make you say WOW, are gone, and I want them back. My laptop will produce this quality of sound. Why can’t I get a portable CD player that will? Why can’t I find a portable that will play all of it and not just clipped pieces of it?

I will be the first to agree that portable players could be produced better. The technology is out there to make better players, but I don't think they will ever equate with home systems.

When you take your music with you as you travel around outside in the world you are going to sacrifice some detail and dynamic range. To me, however, this is a small price to pay. I find my portable set-ups to be every bit as enjoyable as home systems.

In fact, the intimacy you create between yourself and the music when using headphones (which, of course, can be done at home as well) is a quality that can't be reproduced with speakers.

Additionally, I honestly believe, but cannot prove, that many people who are particulary demanding, overly maybe, about transparency and reproduction in their music equipment, are splitting hairs that might not actually be there. I believe this because I do know, that since the industrial revolution and increased urbanization, human hearing has been degrading all over the world. Because of environmantal sounds associatted with the modern world, human hearing is bombarded by very loud sounds through their life that, over time, inevitablely degrade your hearing.

If you want to find people whose ears are truly "golden," you will have to travel to the remote places of the world, were people live in comparatively quiet environments. Most people who live in developed countries will have some hearing loss as they age. Thus, by the time you can afford high-end audio equipment, you will have experienced some, if not significant, hearing loss.

A recent personal experince with this was a trip to New York I recently took. I live in the suburbs and when I hit the city I was astounded at how loud it was. The worst was waiting for the subway. The sound of passing trains was defeaning. I'm sure having to ride the subway daily for a significant portion of my lifetime would certainly cause hearing loss.

Another experience is going camping. When I am at home my environment is always filled with som kind of background noise, like the AC, TV, Stereo, fan, nearby raod, etc. When I go camping, unless I am near a river, beach, etc., what I notice is the silence. The quiet can even be a bit jarring, because I am so used to loud sounds throughout the day.

Well....I'm getting longwinded...I'll let someone else jump in.

 

[Newman]

Interesting story. I grew up in a small city on the Canadian prairie. I spent my summers at a very quite cottage by a lake, fishing, birds, campfires, etc.. I live in Calgary now, but I live right beside a large park and wake up to the sounds of birds gently chirping in the trees every morning. So, by your logic, maybe I do have uncommonly sensitive ears. I don’t come to this from a technical or one of the more stereotypical snobbish “quest for perfect sound” standpoints either. I had a player that I loved. It died. I couldn’t find anything that sounded even close to as good as it did to replace it with. I was confused. I started doing some investigating on the net and ended up here. That’s almost the extent of my technical audio background.

As a footnote, I don’t think the original post, or anything I’ve posted, seeks to compare home audio with portable audio. What we are talking about is a desire for better portable audio, in my case something up to a level that once existed, that I recently owned. Why do people keep talking about home audio?! As far as I can tell that’s not part of this discussion, nor is audio for jogging or operating heavy equipment.

Imagine me in a lawn chair on a beach beside a quiet, remote lake, with no one else around. On the completely stationary table next to me is my potable player. I’m wearing headphones. I’m listing to music. I want my music to sound good.

 

[jmb]

As a footnote, I don’t think the original post, or anything I’ve posted, seeks to compare home audio with portable audio. What we are talking about is a desire for better portable audio, in my case something up to a level that once existed, that I recently owned. Why do people keep talking about home audio?! As far as I can tell that’s not part of this discussion, nor is audio for jogging or operating heavy equipment.

I agree. I love it if portable players in general sound better, the question is though do current ones sound good. I personally do not like many of the current Sonys. I haven't tried them all but I have been disappointed.

However, the Sony D-FJ401 I am listening to right now is very satisfying. It not as good as my MZ-R50 MD player, but still I am having a very enjoyable time listening to London Calling as I type this. I also think my JB3 sounds very good too. Do these represent the pinacle of portable sound reproduction? Of course not, but I still enjoy their wonderful sound and I would not drop $500 to $1000 dollars on some audiophile portable to eek out a bit more sound quality.

There are comprimises that need to be made and I think that they are perfectly acceptable for the quality audio experince some portables can provide you.

My main point, which probably got lost, is that you CAN, with a little bit of research and a few hundred bucks, find an excellent portable set-up that will be satisfying and very enjoyable to even demanding listeners.

This brings me to my related point that many of the most demanding audiophiles out there are listening for reduced sound quality in every instance/set-up they encounter. Well, whether it is there or not, you are bound to find that reduction if you are doing nothing but listening for it. Our brains have a habit of creating these illusions for us even when non-existent.

Someone like this will rarely have an enjoyable music experience, because they are constantly focussed on the negative. Perception is everything. Remember, we hear with our brains, not our ears. Our ears simply transmit the info to our brains for translation.

Thus I suggest everyone, relax, put on a nice pair of cans, fire up your portable amp, pop in your favorite CD and just listen to the music play. Be happy that you probably have better a better set-up than 90% of the people out there and enjoy the wonders of modern technology.

 

[Newman]

I agree with much of what you say, but I have a couple of points to make too. First, as much as I like the Clash, it’s not the kind of music that has the kind of production quality I’m talking about. Nothing from that era does. It was composed and produced for very different technology. I own that CD and it’s one of my all time favourites, but its appeal is in its attitude and rawness, not in its minutia, its great detail and production quality. Home stereos and newer players are often better for that kind of music, I’ve found. I re-purchased Oulandos d’Amour and it sounds a bit odd at first when played on a good player because there’s so much empty space where you’d expect something to be, but it isn’t. A lot of new music doesn’t have the same detail either. When I’m listening to the Constantines or the Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs it doesn’t matter, as much, what player I’m using. If I’m listening to the New Pornographers or Broken Social Scene or any post-rock stuff like Do Make Say Think or GY!BE or Silver Mt. Zion, it really does.

I very much agree with your point that music is heard with the brain. This is why great bass response is not that important to me. When I bought my Panasonic in 95 or 96 I listened to the Sony’s and the Panasonics. The Sony’s clearly had the better bass, but the Panasonic had much more detail. This may sound odd, but you can boost base with your mind. You just focus on it a little more and it becomes more present in the mix. You can’t do anything with something that isn’t there, however. If detail is gone, it’s gone.

I’m beginning to come to the conclusion that I may be in that 1% category. In order to get back what I had, in order to regain access to what I already know and love about many of the CDs in my collection, I may have to spend some significant money. If I have to I have to. So be it, but it doesn’t sound like it’s going to be easy to try out much of this equipment without buying it either.

This is truly annoying. In order to get back what I bought off the shelf for a couple of hundred dollars, Canadian, less than 10 years ago I may have to spend close to a thousand today!? That just isn’t right.

If I’m looking at that kind of money I guess I should check the Sony’s I haven’t heard yet, but like you I’ve never really liked the Sony sound so I’m not that optimistic. Panasonic seems to have abandoned its customers. iRiver is based in California, but you can’t get the SlimX series in Calgary, so I can’t even try it.

I feel like I’m being pushed kicking and screaming into the audiophile world.

What about professional equipment? Is there anything there worth looking at? Surely I can’t be the only one here with this problem. Is everyone else going to separate DACs and amps? Then you need a player with a good lineout.

What a pain in the …

 

[setmenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhd812 yes i would like to know more about this dac idea to any help?

Try aos's webpage for some portable dac/amps :

http://aoselectronics.com/

These seem to have had very good reviews , aos is a member
here and will no doubt be pleased to answer any questions you might have.

Another route, if one is partial to a bit of Diy is to build your own dac.

My own experience with outboard portable dacs has been very positive.
I suppose the only downside is the trade off between having compactness
and low weight or improved sound quality.


Setmenu

 

[thomas]

Quote:

Is there something about the setup you’re suggesting that would keep it from being portable to this degree?

Nope, not at all- But when i mean portable, i'm speaking from my own experience, usually using it on the bus or jogging- in that case, i want the whole system to be small enough to fit in a pocket- which rules out both classic CDP's and external components.

But you can easilly fit a DAC or amp into a small discman/camera bag, and have an easily-transportable system with great sound.


If you just want to equal the sound of a "classic" CDP, then all you would need is a $20 discman with line-out and a basic portable amp- the total cost would come out to the same as a decent discman from a few years ago.

A DAC will give you the ultimate in sound from a portable, and surely be a class above any classic discman. However, it will cost you, since you would need a discman with optical out (in Canada that means top-of-the-line Sony or Iriver) as well as the DAC. Its up to you how much you'd like to spend, but there are plenty of ways of getting good sound for any budget. Unfortunately, the only way to try much of this equipment is to find a head-fi members meeting, as most portable amps/DACs are custom built and aren't sold in stores...

 

[Newman]

Thanks for the info. Yeah, my portable requirements are quite different than yours. I want to be able to sit on the deck, enjoy the fresh air, and listen to gorgeous soundscapes. I want the detail.

That said, I probably only had moderate levels of detail before. I’ve been using a pair of Pro-Luxe Pro-40 headphones and a mid 90’s Panasonic PCDP. That’s it. I don’t know that much about the headphones because I bought them at a charity auction, and I just happened to like them.

So I have one more question, one that will probably show my lack of technical knowledge. If using the same headphones with the current players gives me an unsatisfactory amount of detail in the music, how will adding only an amp bring back that detail? The new players are gutless too, and I’m sure that an amp will change the sound qualities for the better, but isn’t the detail in the music a function of the performance of the DAC?