Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread
Jul 19, 2021 at 1:35 PM Post #13,981 of 18,576
I connect my HMS to my TT2 using two 0.5m Atlas Mavros BNC-BNC cables, and it sounds superb. And when I mean superb, it ‘bats in the same league’ as my Linn Klimax DS/3 and my Esoteric K-01X BH.

Am I missing something? :spy:
 
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Jul 19, 2021 at 2:19 PM Post #13,984 of 18,576
I’m using Moon Audio Silver Dragon BNC cables purchased when I received the M-Scaler. They are “reasonably” priced ($200 per cable for 1.5 feet) so $400 for two. Honestly, any reasonably made BNC cable would be just fine because RFI is no longer a concern for me now that I’m using a battery to power the M-Scaler. The stock cables are inexpensive and some users have voiced concern about loose connections. I’d try Blue Jeans cables if you are looking for a decent budget alternative. Of course you could buy the WAVE cables if you dont want to go the battery route but they are pricy, IMHO.
Are you happy with the Silver Dragons? Audible improvements, or do you just like the build/fit better than the stock cables?
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 2:27 PM Post #13,985 of 18,576
Thank you Rob Watts. The answer to my question about measuring rfi as pertains to the mscaler is it is not possible at the small levels that can still affect a humans perception.
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 2:30 PM Post #13,986 of 18,576
Are you happy with the Silver Dragons? Audible improvements, or do you just like the build/fit better than the stock cables?
Oh, I’m sure there are “audible“ improvements over the stock cables just because of much better connectors (fit and finish are immaculate) better shielding and silver wire. Moon Audio is reasonably priced and, I’m happy with them.
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 3:07 PM Post #13,987 of 18,576
"On the receiving end of Opto-DX where you’re feeding your DAVE, the dual BNC signal from the Opto-DX comes from the DC power that you used to feed the Oppo-DX receiver and the converter that converts the Optical to BNC. So actually you can get RFI coming from with the power supply to the Opto-DX Receiver."
I agree, you have to use batteries or a good power supply on a separate electrical circuit. I use a Farad Super3. Good BNC cables between the Opto-DX R and Dave are also still required. For me this solution works very wall as I can locate the Blu2 and digital source components at the side of my listen room and the Dave and power amps about 4 metres away at the front, hence reducing airborne RFI.
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 3:19 PM Post #13,989 of 18,576
There are things I’d spend money on at this point.
What? I thought you had to spend every last penny you have on HiFi equipment?!? :thinking:

Amateur... :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 3:20 PM Post #13,990 of 18,576
Jul 19, 2021 at 3:29 PM Post #13,991 of 18,576
The problem is that you are not appreciating the scale of the problem. So a little while ago, I was listening to the sample rate conversion for the ADC project. This used my 67 bit Lagrange interpolator running at 104 MHz, and I initially started simply with first order, and pS interpolation (this time interval is the resolution on the 104MHz time domain against the incoming 98MHz word clock). Ran simulations, and then listened, and I kept listening until I could hear no degradation. Eventually I ended up at 8th order Lagrange; but the really interesting thing was the time resolution. This had the effect of creating noise floor modulation that was dependent on the rate of change of input signal as well as amplitude; so a DC signal creates zero noise floor modulation, and as you double the frequency you double the noise floor modulation - so it's noise floor modulation that is dependent upon frequency and amplitude. The crazy thing was going to femto second resolution gave a 60dB improvement on simulation - and a big improvement on sound quality. I then went to atto second resolution; and here it was difficult to measure (from simulation) the noise floor modulation, so I started using 0dB 88kHz test signals (something you would never see in real life). Then I could see it at -300dB. Femto to atto second change was easily audible though. Then I went to zepto seconds, and now the noise floor modulation was not visible, even with 88kHz - so it would have been at -360dB levels. This is ridiculously small - but going from atto to zepto seconds resolution on the interpolator was still audible - and it sounded exactly like noise floor modulation, that is smoother and warmer.

What I concluded about this is that the target for noise floor modulation needs to be around -400dB. That is absolutely impossible to measure, and frankly it's an impossible engineering standard, which is why you can still hear subtle changes in cabling with the M scaler.

On the development of the M scaler, the ferrites were put into the OP drivers. And this indeed solved the problem - adding clip on 2GHz ferrites actually made the SQ worse (brighter indicative of more noise floor modulation) so I decided my treatments worked, so I submitted the design to Chord for production. Nick from Wave cables got a production M scaler, and sent me some prototypes of his cables - and indeed these sounded better, due to the solid ferrites he used.

So this situation is not a design fault, but merely illustrates how incredibly sensitive the human hearing system is. And in absolute terms we are hearing very,very,very tiny changes; the problem with listening tests is that something very tiny can become quite significant on an AB listening test. Remember too that this is the very top micrometer layer of icing on the cake! Moreover, if you want to perfectly isolate the RF noise, simply feed M scaler with an inexpensive battery lap-top power pack, and use optical inputs (although USB most of the time is fine).
And Rob, it will not surprise you to learn that this is not by any means a Chord DAC ’issue’ as such, it applies to every DAC that I have come across. Indeed often to a greater extent than your DACs. The difference seems to be that you are ahead of the game when it comes to discussing numbers to be applied to the noise floor modulation and why the human ear is so far the best way to evaluate which solutions are less or more successful.
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 5:12 PM Post #13,993 of 18,576
And Rob, it will not surprise you to learn that this is not by any means a Chord DAC ’issue’ as such, it applies to every DAC that I have come across. Indeed often to a greater extent than your DACs. The difference seems to be that you are ahead of the game when it comes to discussing numbers to be applied to the noise floor modulation and why the human ear is so far the best way to evaluate which solutions are less or more successful.
Why does your “human ear” hear that replacing Rob’s power supply with an unauthorised one improves the sound of the DAVE and yet Rob’s “human ear” hears different?
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 5:16 PM Post #13,994 of 18,576
Why does your “human ear” hear that replacing Rob’s power supply with an unauthorised one improves the sound of the DAVE and yet Rob’s “human ear” hears different?
Probably because science hasn’t really figured out what actually goes on in there! We can measure sound that reaches the ear but it’s a biological free for all once it’s inside…

https://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/how-do-we-hear
 
Jul 19, 2021 at 5:39 PM Post #13,995 of 18,576
Why does your “human ear” hear that replacing Rob’s power supply with an unauthorised one improves the sound of the DAVE and yet Rob’s “human ear” hears different?
When did Rob try a DC4 with the DAVE and find no difference? I must have missed that! Or are you just trolling again...
 

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