Hugo M Scaler by Chord Electronics - The Official Thread

[zen87192]

I have a Pioneer Stable Platter CD Transport going into the DAVE via Optical cable, my Silent Angel Streamer playing out via USB to an SRC-DX and then out via BNC Wave Storm to the DAVE. An excellent outcome. In addition, I also have the option of playing out of the DAVE via DAC Mode and out via RCA to my Singxer SA-1 Headphone Amp which gives a noticable bump of everything without any colouration or veil to the sound. But I must admit I do like it out of the DAVE direct. Its more natural. Plenty enough to drive my LCD-5's and Sundara's. Even more surprising is I've just bought a pair of Sony WH-1000XM5 Bluetooth Headphones and connected them via Cable to the DAVE. Oh crikey! That's value for money! I wasn't expecting such a great synergy with a Bluetooth Headphone! Next up is the installation of the Super Farad 3 Dave Power Supply upgrade. En route to me now. Can't wait for this... I've heard much about power supply upgrades so I thought I'd give this a go. Exciting times ahead.

 

[Somatic]

The problem is that you are not appreciating the scale of the problem. So a little while ago, I was listening to the sample rate conversion for the ADC project. This used my 67 bit Lagrange interpolator running at 104 MHz, and I initially started simply with first order, and pS interpolation (this time interval is the resolution on the 104MHz time domain against the incoming 98MHz word clock). Ran simulations, and then listened, and I kept listening until I could hear no degradation. Eventually I ended up at 8th order Lagrange; but the really interesting thing was the time resolution. This had the effect of creating noise floor modulation that was dependent on the rate of change of input signal as well as amplitude; so a DC signal creates zero noise floor modulation, and as you double the frequency you double the noise floor modulation - so it's noise floor modulation that is dependent upon frequency and amplitude. The crazy thing was going to femto second resolution gave a 60dB improvement on simulation - and a big improvement on sound quality. I then went to atto second resolution; and here it was difficult to measure (from simulation) the noise floor modulation, so I started using 0dB 88kHz test signals (something you would never see in real life). Then I could see it at -300dB. Femto to atto second change was easily audible though. Then I went to zepto seconds, and now the noise floor modulation was not visible, even with 88kHz - so it would have been at -360dB levels. This is ridiculously small - but going from atto to zepto seconds resolution on the interpolator was still audible - and it sounded exactly like noise floor modulation, that is smoother and warmer.

What I concluded about this is that the target for noise floor modulation needs to be around -400dB. That is absolutely impossible to measure, and frankly it's an impossible engineering standard, which is why you can still hear subtle changes in cabling with the M scaler.

On the development of the M scaler, the ferrites were put into the OP drivers. And this indeed solved the problem - adding clip on 2GHz ferrites actually made the SQ worse (brighter indicative of more noise floor modulation) so I decided my treatments worked, so I submitted the design to Chord for production. Nick from Wave cables got a production M scaler, and sent me some prototypes of his cables - and indeed these sounded better, due to the solid ferrites he used.

So this situation is not a design fault, but merely illustrates how incredibly sensitive the human hearing system is. And in absolute terms we are hearing very,very,very tiny changes; the problem with listening tests is that something very tiny can become quite significant on an AB listening test. Remember too that this is the very top micrometer layer of icing on the cake! Moreover, if you want to perfectly isolate the RF noise, simply feed M scaler with an inexpensive battery lap-top power pack, and use optical inputs (although USB most of the time is fine).

Hi @Rob Watts

Can we run Mscaler off 16v vs 12v? I think I read people mentioning that it sounded better etc. wondering what your take is.

 

[Triode User]

Hi @Rob Watts

Can we run Mscaler off 16v vs 12v? I think I read people mentioning that it sounded better etc. wondering what your take is.

I don’t think you will find anyone on here who would recommend running the Mscaler or any of the Chord Dacs over voltage. The rated max voltage for the Mscaler is 15v. If you run it off 16V you might get away with it but the risk is that you blow your Mscaler and it will not be covered by warranty.

Against that background it really is irrelevant whether 16V may or may not sound better (and I can’t think of any reason why it might). Someone might have tried a 16V aftermarket supply, been lucky it did not blow the Mscaler, heard a difference (possibly caused by noise from the power supply) and mistaken that for being better.

To misquote the film, “So punk, do you feel lucky?”

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Exactly that:

Against that background it really is irrelevant whether 16V may or may not sound better (and I can’t think of any reason why it might). Someone might have tried a 16V aftermarket supply, been lucky it did not blow the Mscaler, heard a difference (possibly caused by noise from the power supply) and mistaken that for being better.

Can we run Mscaler off 16v vs 12v? I think I read people mentioning that it sounded better etc. wondering what your take is.

For some time I was using M scaler with Krisdonia power bank.
So I could change from 9v to 12v (it also has 16v output but I didn't try that at voltage is just too high)
And 9v sounded better - calmer, smoother, darker.
12v sounded more impressive at first, but it was just noise, after listening there was fatigue and lack of very fine separation. I measured different output voltages using simple multimeter and 12v was more noisy than 9v.

So I'm with @Triode User with this one. Most people hear more impressive sound from 15v or even 16v but it's just probably more noise going from dc-dc converters that these power banks have.
It's power quality what matters not voltage. Moreover M scaler divides voltage down internally to 5v (as I remember correctly)....
Never go with more impressive sound, more incisive, hard forced - most of the times it's a red light that what you are hearing is just noise which is interpreted many times as transparency and more detail.

 

[Rob Watts]

Exactly that:



For some time I was using M scaler with Krisdonia power bank.
So I could change from 9v to 12v (it also has 16v output but I didn't try that at voltage is just too high)
And 9v sounded better - calmer, smoother, darker.
12v sounded more impressive at first, but it was just noise, after listening there was fatigue and lack of very fine separation. I measured different output voltages using simple multimeter and 12v was more noisy than 9v.

So I'm with @Triode User with this one. Most people hear more impressive sound from 15v or even 16v but it's just probably more noise going from dc-dc converters that these power banks have.
It's power quality what matters not voltage. Moreover M scaler divides voltage down internally to 5v (as I remember correctly)....
Never go with more impressive sound, more incisive, hard forced - most of the times it's a red light that what you are hearing is just noise which is interpreted many times as transparency and more detail.

Correct - the M scaler PSU input is regulated down to 5v, and the 5v feeds everything via RF filters and regulators. Also, 16v could cause damage to the unit, so don't run at 16v.

I too have a Krisdonia, so will try it at 9v from 12v on my flight to Chicago (for CanJam) on Friday - and you are correct, smoother and warmer is the better sound, not the pseudo impressive bright sound from RF noise and noise floor modulation.

 

[ObjectiveSubjectivist]

Correct - the M scaler PSU input is regulated down to 5v, and the 5v feeds everything via RF filters and regulators. Also, 16v could cause damage to the unit, so don't run at 16v.

I too have a Krisdonia, so will try it at 9v from 12v on my flight to Chicago (for CanJam) on Friday - and you are correct, smoother and warmer is the better sound, not the pseudo impressive bright sound from RF noise and noise floor modulation.

Actually now I checked and I have Litionite Tanker 50 but it looks exactly the same like Krisdonia.
Both are some Chinese companies and we all know how things look like there. So I believe internals are identical or pretty much the same.
But yes 9v was better than 12v.

 

[Somatic]

Correct - the M scaler PSU input is regulated down to 5v, and the 5v feeds everything via RF filters and regulators. Also, 16v could cause damage to the unit, so don't run at 16v.

I too have a Krisdonia, so will try it at 9v from 12v on my flight to Chicago (for CanJam) on Friday - and you are correct, smoother and warmer is the better sound, not the pseudo impressive bright sound from RF noise and noise floor modulation.

@Rob Watts @alxw0w

What makes 9v produce less RF noise? How about if you battery goes down to 5v? Can one run the M-Scaler at this voltage and get potentially more benefits?

@Rob Watts Hi Rob, I'm curious on your take on the Farad3 and DC4. Have you ever had a chance to listen to these mods? Do you think it adds noise and that's why people like them? Curious on your thoughts ... thanks again.

 

[Reactcore]

What makes 9v produce less RF noise? How about if you battery goes down to 5v?

The only reason why one could hear differences with HMS on different voltages is that the internal DC-DC converter changes its pulse width to keep the output at 5v.. this gives a different generated noise which will be more or less effective filtered by Rob's circuit.

5v input wont work cause any converter needs a overhead voltage of about 3 volts typically.

I'm also curious if Rob heard a DC4, Farad or any other power feed into Dave aside its design SMPS.

 

[Somatic]

If you want a battery that has a long life in terms of the number of discharge cycles it can manage before it becomes weak in the way you describe you need to use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiPO4) batteries.

I use golf cart 12V LiPO4 batteries and separate inverters and I connected them up myself. The chargers are also separate and, when listening, can be easily physically disconnected from the mains.

Fans in inverters are particularly annoying sources of actual sound (as opposed to electrical) noise so I removed them from the inverters. I am deliberately very much underloading the inverters so they can run without fans and not overheat.

If I want more running time I can simply get more batteries and connect them in parallel with what I already have.

The central purpose of this arrangement is to isolate the system from rf noise coming in over the mains.

The problem that you have with the all-in-one products you have listed is precisely that it is difficult to find one that addresses all of the requirements of your application without it having some serious disadvantage or other.

This is an example of the type of battery I use:

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/product/tn-power-lithium-12v-30ah-leisure-battery-lifepo4-tn30/

And a typical charger I use:

https://www.batterymegastore.co.uk/...-blue-smart-ip65-charger-12-71-230v-cee-7-16/

This charger has an in-line connector in its battery feed which can easily be completely disconnected so as to isolate fully from the mains.

And finally the pure sine wave inverter I use:

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/car-inverters/7646820

Wiring these components together to create a power supply is trivial.

In my case, my headphone amp (Woo WA5LE) cannot function unless it gets ac power so, for it, the inverters are necessary.

I will continue to explore options for powering the m scaler and DAVE, but I am definitely inclining towards the Farad LPS solutions for those.

Thanks. Why consider Farad3 if your running your whole system on batteries? Thanks.

 

[miketlse]

The only reason why one could hear differences with HMS on different voltages is that the internal DC-DC converter changes its pulse width to keep the output at 5v.. this gives a different generated noise which will be more or less effective filtered by Rob's circuit.

5v input wont work cause any converter needs a overhead voltage of about 3 volts typically.

I'm also curious if Rob heard a DC4, Farad or any other power feed into Dave aside its design SMPS.

I suspect that it is very difficult for Rob to respond, given the Head-Fi constraint that sponsors do not criticise other sponsors.

 

[SteveHulk]

Thanks. Why consider Farad3 if your running your whole system on batteries? Thanks.

I'm using the batteries mainly to achieve mains isolation. I think it is critical to avoid importing mains rf noise to a system.

I'm not going to pretend that the "pure sine wave" ac produced by the Meanwell inverters is totally pure or perfect. By using powerful inverters and very much underloading them I'm hoping that the sine waves are reasonably pure.

Note of course that the more expensive "pure sine wave" and not the cheaper "modified sine wave" inverters should be used. This is especially important for devices that use transformers on their mains input. Modified sine wave could seriously damage such components.

I'm expecting the Farad3 to have an easy job cleaning up residual problems caused by any sine wave distortion. Also the Farad3 have those massive supercapacitors to provide instant power response to demand. I doubt that the inverters alone can anything like match this performance parameter.

This is a voyage of discovery for me that started long ago when I looked at the mains using an oscilloscope and was disgusted with what I saw!

 

[miketlse]

This is a voyage of discovery for me that started long ago when I looked at the mains using an oscilloscope and was disgusted with what I saw!

I remember one of your posts describing your day job as professional scientist, so your ongoing feedback regarding issues, and the means to mitigate those issues can add value for many owners/users.

 

[SteveHulk]

I remember one of your posts describing your day job as professional scientist, so your ongoing feedback regarding issues, and the means to mitigate those issues can add value for many owners/users.

Your compliment is much appreciated.

 

[Reactcore]

For the ones not knowing this one.. ive been listening to Alexis Cole's Kiss in the dark album.. man this background has some Mscaler magic going on..both on speakers and HP's

 

[Somatic]

Got Mscaler coming in tomorrow. Ready to test it out. Wondering what it can add to the Dave.