[wakeride74]

This doesn't seem like it will leave us in a different position. Assuming that the majority here agree that burn-in will make a difference (small or large up for debate) any DBT or SBT on pre and post burned in Hornets "M" or stock would leave us in the same place debating the size of the sonic change.

I would gladly participate in a test, I just don't think it will end any debates unless everyone taking the test ends up rating the change in the same area on some kind of scale.

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wakeride74 This doesn't seem like it will leave us in a different position. Assuming that the majority here agree that burn-in will make a difference (small or large up for debate) any DBT or SBT on pre and post burned in Hornets "M" or stock would leave us in the same place debating the size of the sonic change. I would gladly participate in a test, I just don't think it will end any debates unless everyone taking the test ends up rating the change in the same area on some kind of scale.

We originally discussed our little 3-Hornet micro meet for fun and for our own edification.

I don't know it this will -- or if we want this to evolve into a "scientific" study. We'll see what other members or our merry local band might or might not say about this.

i'm too tired now to comment sensibly.

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romanee Since I've only had a few brief (though very enjoyable) listens to the HR2, that comparison never occurred to me. Thank goodness you won't get a new 15,000uf cap (and need 350 hours or "burn in" all over again)! To switch your train of thought, along the lines of Filiburt's latest post here -- regarding our plans to assemble "original", "new stock", and "burned-in 'M'" Hornets for mini-met comparison -- it would be interesting if we could assemble even more Hornets -- but I have no idea how. We'd need a quiet venue, and focus the meet solely on Hornets. Ouch! Bring the antihistamine. Well, maybe leave the meds home to avoid affecting aural acuity. BTW Filiburt -- just a side note: As Jahn will verify, my ears are pretty good (though I doubt I have "golden ears", whatever that really means) -- at least regarding the 3 Hornet versions. When I heard his Hornet (at our minimeet), that he thought was an "original stock" Hornet, it sounded to me to be very different from the sound I remembered. I thought that perhaps Ray had made interim mods before the "M" mod. We discovered shortly after the meet that early on Ray had discovered problems with the original Hornets' Nichicon cap, and changed the subsequent stock Hornets to incorporate a Panasonic cap, replacing the "flawed" Nichicon cap. The Panasonic cap gave it a somewhat wider soundstage, more HF extension (though not to my ears as clean or extended as the "M" Hornet), better speed and definition, a brighter overall character -- but also not as good, in various respects, as the "M".

Well, I'll be interested to read the results. Make sure you do blind testing of some sort, though. In my experience, it does help to alternate between quick listen switching and long listen switching, but to use both methods. You can improve the "blind" aspect of the test by marking them somewhere the listener can't see, and then mixing the amps around each time before the listener chooses, so that he/she can't keep track of which is which and may even get some twice.

It's definitely curious to me that this rail cap is having such pronounced effects. I'm wondering if perhaps something else in the design of the amp is responsible for this behaviour rather than strictly the physical traits of the capacitors.

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt Well, I'll be interested to read the results. Make sure you do blind testing of some sort, though. In my experience, it does help to alternate between quick listen switching and long listen switching, but to use both methods. You can improve the "blind" aspect of the test by marking them somewhere the listener can't see, and then mixing the amps around each time before the listener chooses, so that he/she can't keep track of which is which and may even get some twice.

Sounds practical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt It's definitely curious to me that this rail cap is having such pronounced effects. I'm wondering if perhaps something else in the design of the amp is responsible for this behaviour rather than strictly the physical traits of the capacitors.

I've heard various rail caps have significant effects on the sound quality and character of portable amps. Perhaps it's a matter of the manner in which different caps interact with the overall design(s). I'm a technical illiterate, so I couldn't begin to address this issue, other than from an experiential perspective.

 

[Andrea]

Romanee -- I don't doubt what you've heard. It's only that the light in which you put it looks railroaded.

From all my various experiences, an amplifier (headphones/speakers) "tells you" what it sounds like from the very first moment. If you don't like it then (idiosyncrasy, anyone?), chances are that you won't like it ever... (e.g., me & the Go-Vibe).

edit- this is valid as a principle with all audio stuff, though it is by far more marked with headphones/speakers. With amps burn in is subtle, more subtle than we're all making it sound.

 

[Andrea]

In other words, Romanee, I think that by overly going into the details, you're losing the big picture about burn in (read, what burns in and what doesn't).

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea From all my various experiences, an amplifier (headphones/speakers) "tells you" what it sounds like from the very first moment. If you don't like it then (idiosyncrasy, anyone?), chances are that you won't like it ever...

This thread is too much -- so I'll give the short answer:

Nope. Not necessarily so.

BTW - Filburt pointed out to me a while ago that, technically, nothing actually burns in. I've heard some amps go through merely modest adjustments, but other amps presenting significant sonic changes -- sometimes dramatically changing the character or signature -- so I continue to use the term, but I now put it in quotes ("burn in").

 

[Andrea]

Ok, I'll take your word

 

[Andrea]

I must be quite idiosyncratic.

Btw -- I do certainly believe that some parts burn in. The sceptics don't perceive it, and wouldn't know how to prove it empirically - and so they are sceptics.

 

[jazzist]

Hi Guys,

I'm considering the Hornet for my first headphone amp.

Can you recommend an interconnect to connect an ipod to the amp?

Do low-profile ipod docks exist? i.e. for connecting line-out to a headphone amp.
edit: I think this is what I was looking for http://tinyurl.com/p757b

What's the difference between the M hornet and the normal hornet? There is only one Hornet listed on the RS website.

Thanks.

 

[Ray Samuels]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzist Hi Guys, I'm considering the Hornet for my first headphone amp. Can you recommend an interconnect to connect an ipod to the amp? Do low-profile ipod docks exist? i.e. for connecting line-out to a headphone amp. edit: I think this is what I was looking for http://tinyurl.com/p757b What's the difference between the M hornet and the normal hornet? There is only one Hornet listed on the RS website. Thanks.

Try this link...
http://audiolineout.com/
The silk, cotton...
Ray samuels

 

[socrates63]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzist What's the difference between the M hornet and the normal hornet? There is only one Hornet listed on the RS website.

Check out the NYC portables meet thread for extensive impressions of the two versions of the Hornet as well as some funny banter among Head-Fi friends.

The current shipping version of the Hornet is what has been referred to as the M Hornet. In other words, the M Hornet is the "normal" Hornet. I don't know whether Ray still makes available the pre-M Hornet which is what I have.

By all accounts, people who had their pre-M Hornet modded to the M Hornet are much happier. However, there are those sitting on the fence, myself included, who are very happy with the sound of the pre-M Hornet and are aprehensive of changing what's not "broken" so to speak.

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzist Hi Guys, I'm considering the Hornet for my first headphone amp. Can you recommend an interconnect to connect an ipod to the amp? Do low-profile ipod docks exist? i.e. for connecting line-out to a headphone amp. edit: I think this is what I was looking for http://tinyurl.com/p757b What's the difference between the M hornet and the normal hornet? There is only one Hornet listed on the RS website. Thanks.

Don't bother with the Sendstation PocketDock. While my AudioLineOut (ALO) Cotton Dock was out for repair, I bought a PocketDock at J&R, since I have a few nice 0.5m ICs (Silver Dragon and Zu Pivot), and the PocketDock allows Firewire charging while listening (Firewire & Lineout version).

The PocketDock does not lock in place (like the ALO, TurboDock, SikDin, etc., do) and it was constantly falling out! What a pain. I will return it.

[size=medium]I love my ALO Cotton Dock[/size], and I liked the ALO Bling Bling Dock I used to have before I upgraded. The Cotton Dock is pricy, but (after some burn in) I find that it's the most "neutral" cable I have. I'm tempted (when I have some available cash) to get the ALO Cryo Dock for it's great (multi-strand) flexibility -- vs the solid silver conductors in the Cotton Dock that are vulnerable to breakage.

Member Turbo makes some nice TurboDocks and cables, but I haven't gotten one yet. Send a PM to Turbo if you want more info and pricing. Here's one link showing some of his recent pieces:
Some of Turbo's TurboDocks + ICs

Brief note on the Hornets. There are/were 3 versions of the Hornet: the very original (less than 100 units) had the big bass/warm & "tube-y", very close up & intimate, soft/forgiving highs driven by a 15,000uf Nichicon output capacitor. Those are no longer available, assuming that sound is what you're looking for.

The current "stock" Hornet has a 15,000uf Panasonic cap that has a very different character and already produces a different sound with somewhat tighter bass, more extended highs and somewhat wider soundstage.

The "M" mod is definitely recommended, since its has slightly more extended but much cleaner highs, much wider and deeper soundstage, greater bass punch and definition -- but I have to repeat -- as boring as it's getting -- that it really needs 350-400 hours of "burn in" (play time) for its optimal sound to arrive/mature/stabilize. Some love it out of the box, but the bass in particular really opens up after 350+ hours, and the mids-to-highs get cleaner and more open, with more air and ambience retrieval after 300+ hours. The sound becomes more liquid (smooth and flowing -- not smeared) but not less detailed, as well as more fun and musical. If you don't have the patience for this long period (you can connect it to something like an iTunes library and any cheap phones for 24/7 "burn in" to get past it faster) -- you might still like to initial "sparkle", but you won't hear it at its best without 350-400 hours of play. Unfortunate, but that's the nature of the output cap.

The other portable that oddly needs the same "burn in" time is the latest Portaphile PV2^2-LT1210 Maxxed, whose output cap is 1500uf rather than 15,000uf, but it's a Black Gate NX -- and Black Gates are renowned not only for their excellent SQ, but also for the long "burn in" required. So the Hornet is not some sort of freakish device requiring the long maturing time, but it's one of only two that I'm familiar with (based on personal experience) that need this (despite some protestations that it's self-delusion to believe this).

 

[jazzist]

Thanks guys for your informative and long replies.

This may seem lazy... but I don't have much to say in reply yet

I have an 60gb ipod video and westone UM2 that i've been running directly out of the ipod.

Having done allot of reading and searching on here..
I'll probably buy some AKG K701's for home use, along with a Hornet, and an ALO dock.

Thanks again for your help... I will let you know my thoughts when I've bought/heard one

 

[Romanee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazzist Thanks guys for your informative and long replies. This may seem lazy... but I don't have much to say in reply yet I have an 60gb ipod video and westone UM2 that i've been running directly out of the ipod. Having done allot of reading and searching on here.. I'll probably buy some AKG K701's for home use, along with a Hornet, and an ALO dock. Thanks again for your help... I will let you know my thoughts when I've bought/heard one

A few notes for your regarding some of the ALO dock cables: If you plan to give the ALO extensive portable use, the Jena Cryo Dock may be the best bet, since it is very flexible and -- not being made with solid silver conductors -- much more durable and less prone to breakage.

ALO has "Jumbo" versions available (Jumbo Cotton Dock and Jumbo Silk Dock) which shed more gossamer veils than even the Cotton Dock, but they do use solid silver conductors, albeit more of them, and thus are still more vulnerable to breakage than the Cryo Dock. I've just received a Jumbo Silk Dock, and tho' it's very entertaining it definitely needs "burn in" time so I can't comment yet.

I am tempted to get a Cryo Dock, but don't have the discretionary capital at the moment.