Something I would like to say is that we all know Head-Fi is always trying to (somehow) promote the gentle tone.
While too gentle for some, I think it's probably spot on for many people, especially for beginners.
Same might apply to the Sound Science sub-forum.
I think we should maintain the gentle tone here and understand that a newcomer willing to learn is surely going to make mistakes at the beginning since rules here are not everyday rules for most people.
In other words, I encourage you to remain gentle instead of ready to jump off when newcomers arrive.
Take the time to explain things, and if you don't have the time, best chances are someone else will.
Making jokes of some else's posts or implicitly saying:
"You don't belong here. You are no more than a bloody subjectivist"
is not that useful. We end up pushing good people away and that means pushing knowledge away in the long run.
you're most certainly right, and the subforum wishes to be a nice place for the indigenous population, but also a welcoming place for curious minds. the way we perceive things obviously must be different for different kinds of people. if I had to take the objective vs subjective down to a racial analogy(risky business, but sadly similar ^_^), I remember reading an article about how many black dudes in a crowd started to make white people say they were "invaded"(it was a french study). and the answer was that as little as 3 black dudes were often enough to create a racial reaction with all the stupidity usually involved(hate, fear etc..). how many subjectivists are needed in sound science to look like we're invaded? ^_^
and how many objectivists in the cable section are needed for a topic to be locked and people removed forcibly for disrupting peace? ^_^.
my guess is that the racial analogy holds strong. we are all to blame, but we all exaggerate greatly the things that are happening.
I'm as white as it gets(blue eyes blond hair when I still had some^_^, the full kit.) but I grew up for years in the Caribbeans, so I have lived as the "minority" for some times. and while I encountered a few acts of racism, most of those blessed years, I was treated as anybody else to the point of when being the only white guy at school, I would be shocked at seeing myself in the mirror. that's how much I felt like I belonged.
while this is supposed to be the same thing, I have quite a few friends from minorities who never had that luck and never ever felt like they belonged in France. just to say that reversing a position doesn't always present reality. how subjectivists see sound science, I have no idea. that's the factual reality for me .
my point is that only a few cases can look like a generalized thing. and that we all see things through our own eyes. when I discussed with people in PM, often they tell me that sound science is always looking for battle, always pushing people out, always narrow minded. pretty sad feedback.
well as one of the sound science people, I always felt those very things, from all of headfi, but sound science(I must say those PMs felt very strange to me and I had to go ask around to realize those guys weren't on acid). funny how biases apply even for that. I have myself felt rejected for writing anything a little bit technical in an appreciation thread, with people telling me to go back to sound science, calling me nwavguy's minion and all those clever stuff you see from pure xenophobia at play. and yes it hurts even on a meaningless forum on the internet. once in sound science with people who mostly think like I think, obviously I never felt such a behavior. but as I was told, we look like we're doing exactly the same thing toward subjectivists. this of course is very sad, and those who felt rejected, will in turn often start rejecting anything they recognize as the enemy. oldest story in the book.
but just like the anti science voices of headfi are in fact a noisy 1% or less, the aggressive behaviors in sound science are also as small portion compared to all the time and efforts spent trying to explain and discuss things. from the start we're all narrow minded for seeing those kinds of generalizations. having a sound science section shouldn't mean that the rest of headfi must use witchcraft, and that sound science can only ever talk as if we were publishing papers. we fall for our own preconceptions and see only what we decide to see.
I look like I'm judging, but as I said I fall for the same preconceptions and do feel like I've taken side which is as good as admitting to have lost.
all that rant to say that I felt bad for the state of things on headfi. thinking that this sub section was disliked and disrespected when it supposedly should be no more than a place to ask questions and discussed advanced tech. so I do what's in my limited 1 guy's power, to try and fix the "asking question and discussing the subject" part. thinking that all the troubles don't come from people asking questions, but from people coming with empty claims and expecting an objective crowd to agree. which could never happen even if the claim was true! those are the guys who end up getting the hate treatment, not the cool newbie asking a question and actually reading the answers.
so this got me thinking that I should try to explain the basics of what is expected when discussing a point in a rational way(thus, this topic). because I could name a few guys(but TOS doesn't allow me to do so ^_^), who don't know how to argue, don't read the answers unless they agree with them, never prove their claims, and think that reality is a rhetorical game they always have to win. but at the same time those guys hide behind a wrong understanding of what is subjectivism, to try and rally others to their cause, and to say "see they hate subjectivists, I'm a victim" when we just hate one guy who is unable to handle a proper conversation like an honest person. it gives the wrong idea to the community.
guys like Big Shot and SE, were advocating for subjectivism all day long. but they were doing it while being able to tell the difference between what they felt and what reality is. they could read a post and answer to the actual content of the post. when I am with people like that, I feel like I'm a subjectivist myself ^_^. of course I have my own tastes, of course if something is pretty it will improve my experience, of course I don't hear exactly as someone else does. all those things have meaning, as long as we take them for what they are, subjective! as in personal, so not something I should force onto others as being a universal truth.
my own belief here is that we can greatly improve discussions if we start at the beginning and explain a few ground rules on how to participate in a rational debate(it's very weird that those stuff wouldn't be taught at school, be that's how it is). we need at least 2 individuals who can write and read, and are able to discuss what the other said in a honest way. we don't need people making up some fallacies and straw man arguments each time they are showed to be wrong. being nice to those guys is just being unkind to everybody else.
this sub section is called sound science, I believe we all deserve a minimum of rational and honesty. this is to some of us, as important if not more important than being treated politely. it matters!
but that shouldn't stop someone from coming to ask a question!!!!! I'm talking about how to argue here. so it's not for people asking questions, but for those making claims. very very different situation.
anybody with a question and willing to try and learn, should come and ask anytime he wants. I have nothing but respect for the curious minds and trust it is the same for everybody here. all I know I owe it to someone who wasted some of his time for me. I love internet for this and anytime I try to help someone, it's not because I'm mother Theresa, I'm just paying back a little of what was done for me. internet is the best tool ever to get answers and sound science hopefully can be one of those places(when we know the answer ^_^).
