[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nelamvr6 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Horsefeathers! If you keep your mind open enough for long enough eventually some jerk is going to come along and toss some garbage in there. The OP has no clue, there is no merit in his ideas and any effort to investigate them would be an utter waste of time. Period.

Thank you.
I could never have wished for a better illustration.

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thank you. I could never have wished for a better illustration.

You're welcome. Glad to oblige!

 

[Some geek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif Has anyone making jokes in this thread actually tried this? I've seen claims elsewhere that CD-R copies of Red Book CDs sound better than the originals. I assume this is what the OP is talking about, disregarding the resampling issue for now. It seems there are some members more interested in "looking cool" and making irrelevant jokes than discussing this topic seriously. The sarcastic "funny" posts keep coming, with multiple posts by the same people.

As one of the jokesters (and I like tell myself the funnest one) Allow me to reply.

-- And my reply might just surprise you. --

Actually you MIGHT be able to make the case that burned copies sounds better than the originals and back it with science.

Here's the deal:

Digital copies, even bit perfect digital copies are effected by this thing called jitter. Now you're read the term a lot but I'm going to assume some noob is reading so let me explain in 20 (edit: 100) words or less what jitter is why it come into play here...

When you are using your CD ROM for data, the TIMING of when the laser reads the bits is not important. Sooner or later it is going to get to that pit in the disk and decided if it is a zero or a one.

There is an argument -that has some merit- that on pressed CDs the pits are not spaced in perfect alignment. (think soldiers marching) So since the data arrives at an uneven rate, the jitter is perceptible to the human ear.

Some people argue -and again with some level of merit- that if you copy as an aiff (lossless) and and rewrite with a good drive on good media you will reduce jitter because on a burned copy the zeros and ones are more evenly spaced than a pressed CD.

BUT -AND IT'S A BIG BUTT-

* If you down sample it in the mean time, (as instructed in the OP) you lose much more than any theoretical potential improvement.

* This has ZERO to do with ripping. (reading the file) It only has to do with WRITING the file.

* This assumes your equipment (including your ears) are sensitive enough to hear it.

* I have not found a double blind study proving people can hear it. People make all sorts of claims in audio. [for the record I'm less skeptical on this claim than I am of many in audio]

* It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with ANYTHING the OP said. AND in fact much of what he said was demonstrably false. (and will make your music sound worse)

If you've heard claims burned copies sounded better, I'm sure it was jitter not the snake oil in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif This thread = elementary school level of maturity

Nope, not to be harsh but the original post was given the level of respect it deserved. None.

 

[Some geek]

one more thing....

Any claims like a burned disk "the bass has more extension" or "there is better soundstage" are complete and utter contemptible poppy****.

Also the "bit error" argument (not yet surfaced in this thread) is beyond moronically stupid. I made a post about this in the past. Anyone who says they can hear the bit error is either self deluded or lying.

That's not opinion. It's fact.

 

[Elephas]

I guess you all missed post #21, where Jahn mentioned his experience with re-ripping a CD onto a CD-R with Lan and Romanee. Three experienced and well-respected members.

Elsewhere, other respected and long-time members have also posted about CD-R copies.

You guys want to continue to joke, go ahead. If this is the type of forum you want where discussions won't be given an objective and fair hearing, go ahead and make more jokes. You've destroyed this thread and will continue to make Head-Fi into a place that's not conducive to serious and mature discussion.

Since I joined two years ago, I've noticed the level of discussion deteriorating. Check out the threads from three years ago. A lot of interesting posts based on real experience. Yes, also a lot of arguing and joking around, but with respect for different points of view.

It's already turning into a circus atmosphere here and a lot of experienced members have already left. If it continues to deteriorate I wonder why I continue to visit.

 

[nelamvr6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess you all missed post #21, where Jahn mentioned his experience with re-ripping a CD onto a CD-R with Lan and Romanee. Three experienced and well-respected members. Elsewhere, other respected and long-time members have also posted about CD-R copies. You guys want to continue to joke, go ahead. If this is the type of forum you want where discussions won't be given an objective and fair hearing, go ahead and make more jokes. You've destroyed this thread and will continue to make Head-Fi into a place that's not conducive to serious and mature discussion. Since I joined two years ago, I've noticed the level of discussion deteriorating. Check out the threads from three years ago. A lot of interesting posts based on real experience. Yes, also a lot of arguing and joking around, but with respect for different points of view. It's already turning into a circus atmosphere here and a lot of experienced members have already left. If it continues to deteriorate I wonder why I continue to visit.

You know, Elephas, you have a point.

Even though I think the original poster is completely clueless (and I do think that), I should at least use more conciliatory language to phrase my opinions.

I do in fact want a forum where the frank exchange of ideas is encouraged and nurtured.

I can't take back what I've said already, but I resolve to do better in future.

 

[Some geek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elephas /img/forum/go_quote.gif I guess you all missed post #21, where Jahn mentioned his experience with re-ripping a CD onto a CD-R with Lan and Romanee. Three experienced and well-respected members. Elsewhere, other respected and long-time members have also posted about CD-R copies. You guys want to continue to joke, go ahead. If this is the type of forum you want where discussions won't be given an objective and fair hearing, go ahead and make more jokes. You've destroyed this thread and will continue to make Head-Fi into a place that's not conducive to serious and mature discussion. Since I joined two years ago, I've noticed the level of discussion deteriorating. Check out the threads from three years ago. A lot of interesting posts based on real experience. Yes, also a lot of arguing and joking around, but with respect for different points of view. It's already turning into a circus atmosphere here and a lot of experienced members have already left. If it continues to deteriorate I wonder why I continue to visit.

Well, ignoring your melodrama....

I gave more factual information about WHY people might might detect a sonic difference on a burned CD than anyone in the thread. AND I made jokes. (go figure)

But there comes a time in life that you just (as mentioned above) need to throw the B.S. flag. If the instructions in the original post where followed it is undeniable that an audible deterioration of sound quality would have occurred.

The "audiophile" world has more mythology about it than a witchcraft convention. I don't believe and eye of newt will harm my enemies and I don't believe that writing on my CDs with green marker will make the highs more brilliant and the bass tighter.

There is no "point of view" here, it's mythology.

(I also don't believe that paying $3500 for a 3inch by 2inch maple block (that I can put anywhere in the room) will make a sonic difference either.)

So people used a bit of humor to make the point... the horrors.

Which is worse, cracking a few jokes or wasting people's time with mythology?

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some geek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well, ignoring your melodrama.... I gave more factual information about WHY people might might detect a sonic difference on a burned CD than anyone in the thread. AND I made jokes. (go figure) But there comes a time in life that you just (as mentioned above) need to throw the B.S. flag. If the instructions in the original post where followed it is undeniable that an audible deterioration of sound quality would have occurred. The "audiophile" world has more mythology about it than a witchcraft convention. I don't believe and eye of newt will harm my enemies and I don't believe that writing on my CDs with green marker will make the highs more brilliant and the bass tighter. There is no "point of view" here, it's mythology. (I also don't believe that paying $3500 for a 3inch by 2inch maple block (that I can put anywhere in the room) will make a sonic difference either.) So people used a bit of humor to make the point... the horrors. Which is worse, cracking a few jokes or wasting people's time with mythology?

Well, ignoring your melodrama:
Your jokes are far worse. They are not appreciated, at least by me.
And I guess you have still to learn that you don't know even a tiny fraction of what you think you know.

 

[Some geek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your jokes are far worse. They are not appreciated, at least by me..

So you'd prefer to be lied to than have a little humor in your life. I pity you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif And I guess you have still to learn that you don't know even a tiny fraction of what you think you know.

Quite the contrary. I'm well aware of what I (and we as a people) don't know. Like Sec. Rumsfeld, I know there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns...

What I know could fill books. What I don't know fills the universe.

But what I do know is that propagating information that is known to be false will never help us tackle that universe of stuff we don't know.

 

[Kees]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some geek /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you'd prefer to be lied to than have a little humor in your life. I pity you.

The OP was not lying. Maybe he is wrong, but he is not lying.
Why are you misrepresenting the situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some geek /img/forum/go_quote.gif Quite the contrary. I'm well aware of what I (and we as a people) don't know. Like Sec. Rumsfeld, I know there are known unknowns and there are unknown unknowns... What I know could fill books. What I don't know fills the universe. But what I do know is that propagating information that is known to be false will never help us tackle that universe of stuff we don't know.

You missed my point completely, and proved it by doing so. Thanks.

 

[Davesrose]

well instead of name calling and arguing who's the most immature.......for any of those that really want an intellectual debate about a pressed CD over it's burned counterpart, start a new thread!!

This thread is getting so ridiculous, I might have to start cracking jokes again

 

[ShadowVlican]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some geek /img/forum/go_quote.gif As one of the jokesters (and I like tell myself the funnest one) Allow me to reply. -- And my reply might just surprise you. -- Actually you MIGHT be able to make the case that burned copies sounds better than the originals and back it with science. Here's the deal: Digital copies, even bit perfect digital copies are effected by this thing called jitter. Now you're read the term a lot but I'm going to assume some noob is reading so let me explain in 20 (edit: 100) words or less what jitter is why it come into play here... When you are using your CD ROM for data, the TIMING of when the laser reads the bits is not important. Sooner or later it is going to get to that pit in the disk and decided if it is a zero or a one. There is an argument -that has some merit- that on pressed CDs the pits are not spaced in perfect alignment. (think soldiers marching) So since the data arrives at an uneven rate, the jitter is perceptible to the human ear. Some people argue -and again with some level of merit- that if you copy as an aiff (lossless) and and rewrite with a good drive on good media you will reduce jitter because on a burned copy the zeros and ones are more evenly spaced than a pressed CD. BUT -AND IT'S A BIG BUTT- * If you down sample it in the mean time, (as instructed in the OP) you lose much more than any theoretical potential improvement. * This has ZERO to do with ripping. (reading the file) It only has to do with WRITING the file. * This assumes your equipment (including your ears) are sensitive enough to hear it. * I have not found a double blind study proving people can hear it. People make all sorts of claims in audio. [for the record I'm less skeptical on this claim than I am of many in audio] * It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with ANYTHING the OP said. AND in fact much of what he said was demonstrably false. (and will make your music sound worse) If you've heard claims burned copies sounded better, I'm sure it was jitter not the snake oil in this thread.

i get what you are saying, but can consumer burning drives produce CDs with less jitter than professionally pressed CDs? heck, can consumer drives even READ the data off the CDs with minimal jitter?

better ask this question at CDfreaks forums where they talk about optical drive equipment more...

 

[Davesrose]

And the big if in all of this is how good your transport mechanism is. Now on my current, more expensive grad consumer CD player, I have noticed it has better tracking and won't sound so "digital" when it encounters a reading error. I can't hear a difference between CD-R and CD, but it could be that my player doesn't introduce any more jitter with one or the other. I guess it could also have good error correction schemes....whatever they may be

 

[Some geek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowVlican /img/forum/go_quote.gif i get what you are saying, but can consumer burning drives produce CDs with less jitter than professionally pressed CDs?

Yes. Jitter is actually a measurable phenomena. We can get measurable less jitter on a CDR than a pressing. But is it audible?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowVlican /img/forum/go_quote.gif heck, can consumer drives even READ the data off the CDs with minimal jitter?

Jitter is a non-issue when reading the file as data (ie ripping to a Hard drive) It's only when used as a time based data source that it becomes an issue. ie Playing music.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowVlican /img/forum/go_quote.gif better ask this question at CDfreaks forums where they talk about optical drive equipment more...

heh- You might not.

I went there once researching this exact topic and I read some guys claiming that blue CDRs had a different sound then silver ones and that read errors where so great on consumer drives they could hear the missing bits.

I got my silver bullets and my crucifix and I left.

 

[Some geek]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kees /img/forum/go_quote.gif You missed my point completely, and proved it by doing so. Thanks.

heh- You're right, I read that too fast...

But I have to ask.... Have you tried listening while standing on only your left leg?