How to get a big soundstage in any can - no modding.

[Lunatique]

If you think that's good, wait till you try Isone Pro. Here's a thread about it:
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/473885/isone-pro-the-best-thing-you-could-ever-get-for-your-headphones-on-your-computer
 
It punches all the crossfeed I've ever tried in the face and then laughs about it. No comparison at all.

 

[SP Wild]

So you've still got complaints about any "recessed mids" in your D7000 after trying other implementations?  It brings out recording errors in my collection that other combo's couldn't.  That is detail retrieval as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

So you've still got complaints about any "recessed mids" in your D7000 after trying other implementations?  It brings out recording errors in my collection that other combo's couldn't.  That is detail retrieval as far as I'm concerned.

Was the question directed at me? If so, then yes, I still firmly believe that the D7000 has recessed mids. Its treble and high-mids is too artificially jacked up to create illusion of detail and air, but that's a bad way to do it--it doesn't sound natural and becomes fatiguing, especially with music that has a lot of treble energy. Even watching movies with the D7000 can sometimes get fatiguing when there's a lot of action and shouting. This only makes the recessed mids even more noticeable. I still love the D7000's bass though, but I've ordered the LCD2 and if its bass is as amazing as everyone say it is (and matches what I'd expect from its stunning frequency response graph), then I'll sell my D7000.
 
BTW, since you use Media Center too, you can try my EQ setting for the D7000 and you'll see how much more natural and accurate it sounds (I used Easy-Q. It's a high quality freeware):

 
To date, the worst I've heard the D7000 do was when I listened to the song "William, It's Really Nothing" by The Smiths. The D7000 makes that song's treble sound like a tinny, splashy, incoherent, and irritating mess. On other headphones and on my K+H O300D's, the song sounds perfectly fine. On the 007MKII, it sounds heavenly.
 
If you listen to the track Klendathu Drop from the Starship Troopers original score (by Basil Poledouris), or any other orchestral score with lots of strings and brass, it also become clear that the D7000's mids are recessed. Compare what the D7000 is reproducing with other headphones that are relatively much more neutral (HD650 or M50 for example) or a pair of high quality speakers, and the truth starts to hurt. Also, just listen to any guitar instrumentals--especially ones with thick and chunky distortion, and you'll hear how the "body" of those instruments are rendered to become anemic by the D7000. But with the EQ setting shown above, the D7000 does much, much better in these types of tracks.
 
And as I've mentioned in another thread, detail retrieval comes in two flavors--one is natural, accurate, and neutral, and the other artificially forced spotlighting of specific frequency ranges not unlike using an EQ. The artificial kind will spotlight things that were never meant to be prominent in a recording--things like lip smacks, hisses and noises...etc. Recording engineers and mixing/mastering engineers generally try to downplay those elements, and even though they allow them to stay in the recording, they don't want to draw attention to them. If a sound reproduction device is unnaturally highlighting those elements, then that's not what the recordings are supposed to sound like.
 
 
 

 

[SP Wild]

Yeah, I do EQ the treble down a little.  But my experiences with the treble of the D7000 is in contrary to what you've experienced.  When I hear a ride cymbal, or a cowbell - the D7000 clearly renders these actions in a manner mid-level cans I've heard just cannot.  With the JR crossfeed, the soundstage is breathtaking with no recessed mids at all so to speak of.  Frequency response, EQ able, aside - the D7000 exhibit transient's 2nd to none in my collection.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Yeah, I do EQ the treble down a little.  But my experiences with the treble of the D7000 is in contrary to what you've experienced.  When I hear a ride cymbal, or a cowbell - the D7000 clearly renders these actions in a manner mid-level cans I've heard just cannot.  With the JR crossfeed, the soundstage is breathtaking with no recessed mids at all so to speak of.  Frequency response, EQ able, aside - the D7000 exhibit transient's 2nd to none in my collection.

Have you ever heard the Stax 007MKII by any chance? When I did extensive A/B'ing of it with the D7000 recently, I was stunned by how a darker than neutral sonic signature like the 007MKII can actually sound so incredibly detailed, textured, and natural in the treble, while in comparison, something like the D7000 with its jacked up treble actually sounds really fake, artificial, and has no texture or natural detail. It's almost like trying to take a lower resolution image and artificially sharpening it in Photoshop--all the "detail" compared to the actual high resolution version are merely distorted artifacts. But this is all relative, since the Stax rig is far more expensive, and the D7000 is quite good among dynamic headphones.
 
I can't wait to get the LCD2 in my paws. I'm hoping it's ever bit as compelling as the Stax rig I fell in love with. If not, I'll have to get the Stax rig because I have never heard anything like it in my life--not even among high-end reference studio monitors. The fact that my reference monitors are the K+H O300D's is a real testament to how awesome the 007MKII's are, since I'm not "supposed" to be that impressed by a pair of headphones when I already have one of the most respected reference monitors ever made.
 
I think selling off my D7000 is inevitable at this point. I'll always remember its awesome bass capabilities fondly though. In that department, the D7000 is truly something special.
 

 

[ULTRA-HARMONICS]

Great read!

 

[SP Wild]

I hope to join you soon in LCD2 ownership, lets hope it fulfills both our expectations.  I am in complete agreement with your observation in context with the likes of O2s etc.  I only ever had a brief audition with the O2 MK2 with its matching amp and connected to a very poor source.  To me they did have a natural treble extension - this was contrasted with it's bottom end oomph - which was well fleshed out, perhaps a shade more than necessary.  Yes I do love my HD650's and find I am often emulating it's signature when using EQ.  There is no loss of musical details in this sort of presentation.
 
Quote:

Have you ever heard the Stax 007MKII by any chance? When I did extensive A/B'ing of it with the D7000 recently, I was stunned by how a darker than neutral sonic signature like the 007MKII can actually sound so incredibly detailed, textured, and natural in the treble, while in comparison, something like the D7000 with its jacked up treble actually sounds really fake, artificial, and has no texture or natural detail. It's almost like trying to take a lower resolution image and artificially sharpening it in Photoshop--all the "detail" compared to the actual high resolution version are merely distorted artifacts. But this is all relative, since the Stax rig is far more expensive, and the D7000 is quite good among dynamic headphones.
 
I can't wait to get the LCD2 in my paws. I'm hoping it's ever bit as compelling as the Stax rig I fell in love with. If not, I'll have to get the Stax rig because I have never heard anything like it in my life--not even among high-end reference studio monitors. The fact that my reference monitors are the K+H O300D's is a real testament to how awesome the 007MKII's are, since I'm not "supposed" to be that impressed by a pair of headphones when I already have one of the most respected reference monitors ever made.
 
I think selling off my D7000 is inevitable at this point. I'll always remember its awesome bass capabilities fondly though. In that department, the D7000 is truly something special.
 

 

 

[Mochan]

After further testing of the JRiver Crossfeed I've decided to leave it off for now. It seems to punch a hole in the mids and makes them more recessed, I am not sure why I am hearing this kind of effect. That and the highs become harsher and more metallic.
 
Keeping it on sublte might be the key, for subtle there isn't much diff so I'll keep it on that setting and maybe when I got back to "normal sound" I will find I'm missing something.
 
I'll have to check out that Isone Pro thing.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

I'll have to check out that Isone Pro thing.

You absolutely should. I love it to death. It's the most realistic emulation of having speakers in front of you I have ever heard, and it doesn't cost an arm and a leg like the extremely expensive hardware options, while sounding totally awesome, with many options to simulate different room settings, speaker types, and can also do surround sound. Nothing out there comes close.

 

[Mochan]

Isone!!!! Now this is what I'm talking about!!!!
 
People call me crazy for loving the K701's "recessed soundstage" but I've always held that the main strength of the K701 is how it makes everything sound so distant. Now sometimes I like having my music up close and personal. But I've always sought that headphone that could make me feel like I was listening to sounds outside of my head.
 
The K701 was the closest to that ideal.... but this Isone manages to come up with the same effect and give it to other headphones... and makes the K701 even more vast and expansive than before!!!
 
It's certainly a much more sophisticated effect than the JRiver Crossfeed, which sounded rather metallic and added too much brightness to the sound. It did recess the mids a bit, but the effect was just that.... seemed to recess the mids while at the same time punched a hole in it and made the rest of the sound a bit metallic.
 
The Isone is a lot, lot better! It sounds much more natural while still giving the illusion of the soundstage expanding away from you. Only problem is on my netbook it "skips" quite a bit, which is annoying. Probably need more power or RAM to run this properly.
 
Gonna try this on my desktop rig tomorrow. need to grab some Zs before I go to work.
 
Thank you Lunatique for pointing me to this wonderful DSP.

 

[Lunatique]

Quote:

Isone!!!! Now this is what I'm talking about!!!!
 
...
 
Only problem is on my netbook it "skips" quite a bit, which is annoying. Probably need more power or RAM to run this properly.
 
...
 
Thank you Lunatique for pointing me to this wonderful DSP.

Glad you like it. I've been spreading the word about it ever since I tried it and fell in love with it. In that thread I linked, I even invited the developer of the plugin to come and answer some questions.
 
What are you using for soundcard on your netbook? You should try ASIO4ALL if you haven't. It's excellent and compatible with just about everything, and it's free too.

 

[Ruffle]

The JR Media is just junk IMO.  I never liked those media players, bunch of bloatware with inferior quality.  
 
Foobar for music and MPC-HC with DXVA/FFDShow Tryouts for me.
 
I tried the JRiver Junk, and it is just all fluff.  The crossfeed just turns stereo into mono.  I would harldy recommend it, but recommend staying away from it.  
 
This Isoprone is a different story.  I can't decide if I prefer it over just the default with no DSP, but it's interesting.  For Foobar:
 
Follow these directions for VST Support:  http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=59206
 
Just place the isoprone VST in the folder you created above and you are done.  Works instantly and as said, it's interesting.
 
The big difference between Isone Pro and JR Junk, is that the music doesn't sound recessed or mono.  

 

[Beagle]

What flaw is that? Is actually having upper mids and lower treble a flaw?
Quote:

 
Imagine a K701 - without the upper mid / lower treble flaw
 

 

[Lunatique]

Ruffle - I've actually been testing various media players/librarians  for many years now, and have tried just about every single one that's ever been recommended--dozens of them, and to date, nothing beats J River Media Center (Media Monkey comes in close second). I used foobar for a while in the past, but it just isn't nearly as intuitive or practical as Media Center. The current version of Media Center allows you to host as many plugins as you like, in a chain, and you can save these chains for instant recall later, or change the order of the chain.
 
The crossfeed on Media Center is just one of its build-in DSP effects, and it's not exactly a selling point. If someone were to buy Media Center just to use its crossfeed, then that's just stupid. The fact Media Center allows you to host whatever plugins you want--especially VST plugins, means they want you to use better plugins than the build-in one--for example, professional audio DSP plugins like Isone Pro, or pro quality EQ's like the variety of linear phase EQ's (FabFilter Pro-Q, Redline EQ, Voxengo CurveEQ...etc). You can also host very high-end effects like reverb plugins that cost several hundred dollars to well over a thousand dollars. All of that makes whatever gripe you have of the built-in crossfeed kind of inconsequential.

 

[Ruffle]

Yeah... I'll stick to the free Foobar with Yohng's VST wrapper instead.  It's lightweight, the best MP3 decoder around still, the FLAC decoder also excellent.  I have no use for JR Junk.  MPC-HC is a far better video player, no question, hands down, not debateable.