[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonci /img/forum/go_quote.gif From my experience, most important are speakers(thats obvious) and amplifier, I tried several Dac and soundcards, yes, they do matter, but when you change the amplifier, its competely another sound, and I`m not talking about Tube, but even SS Ampl. Its like buying CD players, you can`t find much difference between various brand, you can have a cheap one, but choosing the ampl is important cause its the miliar stone of the audio rig, and you should spend on it.

Not so long ago, I also thought that amplifier comes before source. Luckily I know better now.

 

[hybris]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please don't make this kind of statements as if they were facts. This is just your opinion. DAC (like any other source component) can and will change the sound signature dramatically. Those headphones should be more than good enough.

As I used statements as "I'd guess" and "probably" I can't see how you read this as me stating facts.

You on the other hand, is stating that changing the DAC (apparently no matter what DAC we're changing to and from) will make _dramatic_ changes to the sound like THAT's a fact.

Definition of dramatic: "dramatic applies to situations in life and literature that stir the imagination and emotions deeply"

I guess you haven't got too much going on in your life.

 

[theBigD]

wow, this thread has gotten a life of its own. I am on my way to work just thought i would pose the question. What I would like is a dac that is kinda half way between the somewhat warm clean accurate (kinda digital) sound of the compass and the energetic mid forward somwhat edgy harsh sound of my x-fi (without the harshness). maybe a compass with more midrange energy.

any ideas? i wish i could go audition some of this stuff but medford has no audio shop. we used to have circuit city and now they are out of business. its pretty bad that i am calling circuit city an audio shop.

thanks.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shahrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think after headphones, DACs change the sound the most.

In the experience that I have had with the progression over time of equipment through my rig, I concur with the philosophy behind this statement.

What this statement does not do, is introduce what I consider to be a requisate deliniation. And that is the line that should be drawn between the character of a sound as reproduced and the quality (or accuracy) of a sound as reproduced.

Transducers have the largest effect upon the character of a sound. The source has the greatest impact upon its quality or accuracy. Broadly speaking.

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hybris /img/forum/go_quote.gif As I used statements as "I'd guess" and "probably" I can't see how you read this as me stating facts. You on the other hand, is stating that changing the DAC (apparently no matter what DAC we're changing to and from) will make _dramatic_ changes to the sound like THAT's a fact. Definition of dramatic: "dramatic applies to situations in life and literature that stir the imagination and emotions deeply" I guess you haven't got too much going on in your life.

Since when facts couldn't be stated as facts? And of course it matters which DACs you're comparing. Isn't that obvious. I've had several DACs for audition lately because I'm looking for a new source here. All of the DACs I've auditioned have had their own sound signature. Musical Fidelity V-DAC, Beresford TC7520, AudioNemesis DC-1, Heed Dactilus, Bel Canto's integrated DAC chip and USB chip etc.

And are you seriously going after my vocabulary when English isn't even my native language? Should we have the discussion in Finnish? I promise to make better with that language.

I could understand this debate if we were talking about cables. That's where the differences actually are subtle. But source components... and on audiophile forum. I can't even believe that someone here says that they're all the same.

 

[rds]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif But source components... and on audiophile forum. I can't even believe that someone here says that they're all the same.

Yep, to quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by rds /img/forum/go_quote.gif it's pretty much totally ridiculous...

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Please don't make this kind of statements as if they were facts. This is just your opinion. DAC (like any other source component) can and will change the sound signature dramatically.

So you claim, but when put to an ABX test I will bet you $100.00 that you would fail to tell the difference. There is a guy who will pay you $10,000.00 if you can successfully pass an ABX test of amps so I think he knows something you don't.

 

[moonboy403]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you claim, but when put to an ABX test I will bet you $100.00 that you would fail to tell the difference. There is a guy who will pay you $10,000.00 if you can successfully pass an ABX test of amps so I think he knows something you don't.

So you can't hear a difference between your dac in the soundcard and your emu?

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by milkweg /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you claim, but when put to an ABX test I will bet you $100.00 that you would fail to tell the difference. There is a guy who will pay you $10,000.00 if you can successfully pass an ABX test of amps so I think he knows something you don't.

If I can select the sources/DACs/headphone amps which I want to compare in ABX test then I could do that. There are many source components/amplifiers on the market which share a similar sound signature, then there are those which don't.

 

[Trogdor]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Currawong /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe if you can't hear a difference, doesn't mean others can't. Try two DACs that use chips with radically different designs. My current DAC, that uses the PCM1704UK, sounds radically different from those you mention, instruments such as pianos and violins sounding genuine, unlike the hard digital reproductions you get with most.

I think if you DBT it you honestly can't tell the difference. Try it! Get a friend to switch them out without you knowing and try to guess. (I realize this is very unscientific, you would need a much more rigorous testbed). Make sure you use the same signal path minus the TWO DACs.

Quote:

As well, changing around the opamps in a device will result in clear differences in the sound. As I stated before, the circuit design in an amp can add or remove treble or bass in the sound. Such circuits are used in bass and treble controls in mainstream amps. While I'm not disagreeing that headphones will have the biggest differences, vast amounts of actual experience is being ignored with claims that amps and DACs all sound the same.

Yes opamps can change the sound in an amplifier. But that's not my point. Amplifying a signal introduces some level of distortion which may or maynot be audible. But you are constantly equating amplifiers and DACs and thats a big mistake.

The last post of pointing out two specs of Wolfson DACs. Again, please point to me in the spec where one DAC is outperforming the other sonically. PLEASE POINT WHERE WOLFSON claims that (they won't EVER btw).

 

[Currawong]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor /img/forum/go_quote.gif But you are constantly equating amplifiers and DACs and thats a big mistake.

I don't believe I did that. A DAC has an output stage that amplifies the signal from the DA chip. I believe that differences in both make audible differences, and there's no un-scientific mystery about it, it's electrical engineering.

 

[Patu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif Transducers have the largest effect upon the character of a sound. The source has the greatest impact upon its quality or accuracy. Broadly speaking.

Once again, wise words Duggeh.

 

[paaj]

This is turning into a semantics thread... A DAC chip needs some sort of amplification to get the signal to a dedicated amp. When talking about a DAC, it's about the whole package.

The DAC chips probably sound very much alike but the implementation is really important too. I doubt the sound is really the same. Why would a manufacturer make more versions when it all sounds the same? Why would they continue development if the chips are perfect already?

And about that $10.000.000 amp DBT thingy that keeps popping up... have you read the rules with that one? It's kind of funny...

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonboy403 /img/forum/go_quote.gif So you can't hear a difference between your dac in the soundcard and your emu?

My soundcard gets a bit of EMI so that would not be a fair comparison. But I can not tell the difference between my Onkyo DAC and my EMU DAC. I use both now and there is no difference to my ears.

 

[milkweg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paaj /img/forum/go_quote.gif And about that $10.000.000 amp DBT thingy that keeps popping up... have you read the rules with that one? It's kind of funny...

Yes, I have read it. What is funny about it? I also read an article where Bob Carver made his $800.00 amp sound just like a $4,000.00 one and the test subjects failed to tell the difference. That suggests that amps can sound different but if all it takes is a few dollars of components to adjust the sound signature then that says to me they are far more alike than different. Just because one has a sound signature you prefer doesn't mean the other is inferior, they just sound slightly different.