How much power is enough?
Sep 5, 2018 at 9:00 AM Post #46 of 130
power not for loud listening but for control and grip of the driver, especially in the bass, i have small dacs that are loud enough with the Hifiman HE500 but not enough grip in the low end, the headphones sound shouty on high volume, clearly underpowered, when i ad simple amp (magni 2) the bass is more and also with better control, and the overall sound is more dynamic and neutral, that is the benefit to have more power, i am sure that they can scale even more with better and more powerful amp
so how loud is only part of the equation
Power itself isn't control, but these things are related. The transfer function of the whole system is the key. High output impedance makes the transfer function worse because electrical damping decreases meaning the resonance of the driver isn't in full control of the amp. Good transfer function may set high requirements for power so that's were the relation comes.
 
Sep 5, 2018 at 9:17 AM Post #47 of 130
The HE500 has very low sensitivity (89 dB/mW). I’m travelling - so don’t have time to run the math -.

Since HE50 is 32 Ω, 1 Vrms means (1*1)/32 = 0.031 W = 31 mW which gives (89 dB + 10*log (31) dB )/1V = 104 dB/1V. So, 110 dB requires 2 Vrms and 0.125 W of power.
 
Sep 5, 2018 at 2:42 PM Post #48 of 130
Castleofargh, let me know if I understand what you are saying and please correct if I'm wrong: momentary power headroom above the sustained would not occur because the maximum volume is set in relation to a 0 db reference - the maximum volume that can occur in a music file. If the amp can reach this volume without clipping, then it should be able to amplify any signal in any recording at that volume as well as any other amp. This seems quite logical, except that it seems to imply that a given volume always requires the same amount of power, which does not make intuitive sense to me. It seems a driver would be more efficient at certain frequencies than others. I could be wrong about this though.

Disregarding this nitpick, what the other side says is that there are certain sounds which will require power - if only for a split second - much higher than is required to make the music sound loud. They seem to be saying that to go from a low volume to close to max volume very quickly requires extra power. This is not really an argument about volume itself, but rather the physics of the diaphragm. They are saying a signal which goes from low to high will not be properly converted to pistonic motion of the driver unless the signal has a certain level of voltage or amperage.

This isn't all that hard to believe. It reminds me of how distortion sometimes gets lower for headphones as volume gets higher, especially in midrange to treble area. What seems less scientifically supported is the contention that this or something similar happens independent of volume, and is either a result of amps or volts or "cleanliness" of power being less than ideal for a given signal to be expressed in pistonic motion by a given moving mass. I can't give any reason why this wouldn't be the case, but then again I don't know much about this stuff - I can only claim to know more or less the extent of my ignorance.

What really annoys me about this industry is that there must be scientists and industry insiders out there who know exactly how all of this works but are keeping that knowledge to themselves. Or even worse, there is disagreement among experts about how loudspeakers fundamentally work. We need more people studying this stuff and having their work being publicized. I've been trying to answer OP's question for 3 years, but I still don't have really convincing answers for myself.
arf, a lot of things put together here, we'd need a topic for each to get really into how things work in general.
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yes a headphone has various conditions and limitations, that's how you end up with it not sounding like another headphone. the amp outputs the signal and the load(headphone) may let the current flow in some way at one frequency and in some other way at another frequency. the amp can provide that flow of current and it's fine, or it can't and you have power issues. there is no amp looking at the situation and strong-arming the headphone at a given frequency to make it behave against its electrical characteristics. things are how they are. the impedance determines the current flow, the voltage determines the loudness at a given frequency in relation to the sensitivity of the headphone. said sensitivity accounts for everything as it's measured by actually getting the level at the output of the headphone when feeding it with a 1khz signal. so impedance, mechanical forces, acoustic, it's all in the resulting value already.
there is no sending extra power in a secret diplomatic case that Ohm's law isn't aware of.

now realistically, if an amplifier fails to hold up to 5V for a full period of a 40hz signal under a given load, then the amplifier fails at its job in that specific situation where we needed 5V at 40hz into that headphone. the reason is more likely to be about capacitors not holding long enough or something like that I guess. it's a matter of keeping a potential for a longer period, not much that low frequencies require more "force" to push the driver. from that point of view, high frequencies will require more mechanical energy over the same period of time as they "travel" more often.
and yes having specs only for 1khz does not guarantee that the amp will behave properly at 40hz, even less so if the impedance is different from 1khz.
that's why I mentioned that power specs and our little estimation game are only that. we decide about a ballpark value for our needs and check that the amplifier will deliver at 1khz. beyond that, we can only do our best to get amps designed for the use we plan. asking the designer, if it's a small enough brand and the guy replies to mails, is a pretty great option IMO. I have only positive things to say about the honesty of amplifier manufacturers answering my mails or my questions in here for those present. they have a life and probably want to shoot themselves when they start reading my questions, and yet, the vast majority took the time to reply to at least some of my questions, sometimes advising me to pick a cheaper amp in their line, or even not to purchase a new amp at all because what I had was fine for a given headphone/IEM. if they're all like the ones I talked to, great guys!

otherwise, if you wonder about how well your amp behaves with your headphone and if some electrical issues exist, the real answer will be to measure a few stuff. the all approach with guys who sit in a chair, listen for 2 minutes and suddenly think they're the Sherlock Poirot of audio, "it's a lack of power in the kitchen, with the rope!", while fascinating, and correct on occasion with massively obvious stuff, that's not how one should troubleshoot electrical circuits. I feel silly just to state such a captain obvious concept.
it's very fine to rely on our ears only and purchase whatever it is we like most for whatever reason, but then the reasonable thing to do is to avoid making objective claims as objectivity was not involved. again, thanks captain obvious. ^_^



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about the control of the driver's movement, the driver has its very own mechanical and acoustic damping, and with the amp you add electrical damping. the main idea here is that the respective impedance values of the amplifier output and the headphone are what will determine the amount of "control" provided by the electrical signal. when the amplifier has really high impedance the damping will be less. that's really the big main idea. with each damping playing a role on how the driver will move and hopefully, if the driver is good and the damping ratio correct, you won't end up with an horribly underdamped movement. for that specific matter, I'd be more concerned about the impedance output of my amp than about extra power I'm never going to use except mentally to reassure myself.




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you also bring up what could be identified as slew rate and indirectly transient response concerns. so the big idea here is that if we take 2 amplifiers. one able to output 10V with less than 0.2dB attenuation at 1Mhz(or whatever big made up number to carry that idea that it can move fast). then another amp able to do the same thing with a 5V max(we pretend that everything but voltage is virtually giving the same results somehow, although so very unlikely). then it's logical to think that amplifier 1 can go twice as fast if needed. as the amplitude goes from -10 to +10V even at 1mhz. it "travels" a greater amplitude in the same time or else it wouldn't be able to output signal at the same super high frequency as the 5V amp. so with that idea it's easy to have a mental shortcut with the idea that the more powerful amp is "faster". in reality the slew rate does not have to follow such rule, the amp does what it does and the slew rate should be measured if that's what we care about. the other important point is that we're only dealing with audio frequencies. pretty much any amp is fast enough and then some more for audio signal.
so as is often the case, there is a rational behind those concerns and extrapolations about power. but everything ends up being so oversimplified that the concerns are mostly divorced from practical reality. it's like the great easy idea that balanced amps have more power than single ended amps. it comes from a real idea where the voltage is usually doubled in a balanced output compared to the same circuit single ended. but double what? you can make a single ended amp with whatever voltage output you like. it's not like we can go up to 3V on a single ended output and then we don't have any other option but to go balanced. and yet there is clearly that kind of logic in the air on audio forums. half baked correlations turned universal laws in our subjective reality.
so slew rate is obviously a thing, but if my amp has high power specs then the slew rate will be better and my bass will be tighter or some crap like that, that's 130% logical fallacy.
 
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Sep 5, 2018 at 3:00 PM Post #49 of 130
dragonfly is 135mw per chanel at 32 ohm s, it outputs 2 volts, my point was that it can get loud enough with the HE500, but with amp that can output one watt at 50 ohm s the sound is better at the same volume
aside from how such a tiny cool toy is obviously making concessions in the design which are likely to be just as relevant as power, it's feeding from USB! meaning that the source could force a lower limit than what the dragonfly could achieve under nominal conditions. and I don't know how the circuit react to that. being indeed underpowered, but by the USB's 5V line.
no clue if that's your situation, it's just a possibility that came to me.
 
Sep 5, 2018 at 8:04 PM Post #51 of 130
Can someone please confirm if this dB/mW to dB/V converter is accurate?: https://reference-audio-analyzer.pro/en/dbv-dbmw.php

According to Audeze, the 200 ohm LCD-4 is 97dB/1mW and 95dB/1V, but according to the above converter 97dB/1mW = 104dB/1V.
the 2 values from the LCD4 don't correspond. the converter isn't at fault.
https://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD4.pdf the results at 90dB on that page are close to a sensi of 96dB/V. so I'd be tempted to take the given 95dB/V you got as the more relevant value for us and forget that 97dB/mW value, whatever it's supposed to be measuring.
 
Sep 7, 2018 at 8:40 AM Post #52 of 130
If Ohm's law states that V = √(P*R), can we use this to make an accurate prediction of an amplifier's Vrms into specified loads, if the only spec we are given by the manufacturer is the Prms into these loads? It seems to work for the Arcam rHead, which is specified as 2,000mW (16 ohms), 1,100mW (32 ohms), and 130mW (300 ohms). The above equation gives us 5.66Vrms (16 ohms), 5.93Vrms (32 ohms) and 6.25Vrms (300 ohms), which matches pretty closely with Arcam's published specs of 5.7Vrms (16 ohms), 6.0Vrms (32 ohms) and 6.5Vrms (300 ohms). Or did I just get lucky with the example I picked?

If Ohm's law states that I = √(P/R) and I = V/R, can we use this to make an accurate prediction of an amplifier's current into specified loads, if the only spec we are given by the manufacturer is either Prms or Vrms? Using the published Vrms specs, the rHead's current output is predicted to be 356.25mA (16 ohms), 187.5mA (32 ohms) and 21.67mA (300 ohms). Whereas using the published Prms specs, the rHead's current output is predicted to be 353.55mA (16 ohms), 185.4mA (32 ohms) and 20.82mA (300 ohms). I presume these differences could be due to Arcam rounding some decimal points off their published power and voltage output specs?
 
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Sep 7, 2018 at 9:36 AM Post #53 of 130
G=R-1/2gR always worked for einstein
 
Sep 7, 2018 at 11:37 AM Post #54 of 130
If Ohm's law states that V = √(P*R), can we use this to make an accurate prediction of an amplifier's Vrms into specified loads, if the only spec we are given by the manufacturer is the Prms into these loads? It seems to work for the Arcam rHead, which is specified as 2,000mW (16 ohms), 1,100mW (32 ohms), and 130mW (300 ohms). The above equation gives us 5.66Vrms (16 ohms), 5.93Vrms (32 ohms) and 6.25Vrms (300 ohms), which matches pretty closely with Arcam's published specs of 5.7Vrms (16 ohms), 6.0Vrms (32 ohms) and 6.5Vrms (300 ohms). Or did I just get lucky with the example I picked?

If Ohm's law states that I = √(P/R) and I = V/R, can we use this to make an accurate prediction of an amplifier's current into specified loads, if the only spec we are given by the manufacturer is either Prms or Vrms? Using the published Vrms specs, the rHead's current output is predicted to be 356.25mA (16 ohms), 184.5mA (32 ohms) and 21.67mA (300 ohms). Whereas using the published Prms specs, the rHead's current output is predicted to be 353.55mA (16 ohms), 185.4mA (32 ohms) and 20.82mA (300 ohms). I presume these differences can be attributed to Arcam rounding decimal points off their published power and voltage output specs?

I didn't check the values, but yes the principles is there. in fact often you'd check the voltage value into a given resistor and just calculate the rest. so long as you have specs at the specific load you're interested in, you can have some confidence in the various relations of power, voltage, current for your amplifier.

just keep in mind somewhere that we're dealing with audio signal, so it's definitely AC and phase is in fact a relevant variable.
while the amp specs were defined using a purely resistive load making DC ohm's law perfectly legitimate, a headphone of the same impedance will have a reactive component to it(inductive and capacitive). the all thing ends up measured as impedance of the headphone(at a given frequency), but there is a reason why we don't call it resistance. I say that because it's reality so you might care someday as you seem like the properly curious sort of dude :wink:. but in practice I strongly suggest to disregard that when you estimate your power needs for a headphone, and instead keep using the stuff you've seen posted in the topic so far.
there is no point in going crazy over one approximated part when everything else is also just approximation and guesses. you have specs for the amp into 16/32/300 ohm, but how many headphones will conveniently happen to have exactly those values? plus they're only values at 1khz if they're even accurate. you don't really know what the amplifier does at 50hz, and often you also might not know the electrical specs of the headphone at 50hz. so losing power over a few degrees of phase shift is really not something you should bother with IMO. after all even if you lose half the power, that's only like 3dB. who cares when you're making estimates about reaching 115 or 120dB spl despite how you'll most likely listen at 80 or 90dB most of the time. we get overly demanding when making all those approximations because we expect that headroom to take care of all the uncertainty and approximation. so I say, keep using the simple math, just don't go crazy over making claims because something is a few dB off compared to what you were looking for. I start sounding like a broken record, but it's only an estimate, are we apparently in the clear in term or power? yes= move on.
no or IDK= maybe let's look for another amplifier?
 
Sep 7, 2018 at 6:57 PM Post #55 of 130
@ToTo Man

RAA converter dB/mW <-> dB/V is correct.
Power vs Load is not a full straight curve.You can only calculate/predict the values in the linear areas.
Output current is limited at low value loads. Output voltage is limited for high value loads.
The site providing the converter calculator has plenty of such measurement. You may have a look for better understanding.
Making it simple, it is better to have the curve or measure it rather than predict.
 
Sep 9, 2018 at 3:30 PM Post #58 of 130
in reality the slew rate does not have to follow such rule, the amp does what it does and the slew rate should be measured if that's what we care about. the other important point is that we're only dealing with audio frequencies.

I don't think what I was wondering about was slew rate exactly. Slew rate is the rate of change of the amp's output. I am wondering about how different voltages, for example, effect the way the magnet and voice coil respond to each other in order to move the coil and diaphragm. Impulse response doesn't change at all with higher voltages? What about harmonic distortion?
 
Sep 9, 2018 at 4:32 PM Post #59 of 130
I don't think what I was wondering about was slew rate exactly. Slew rate is the rate of change of the amp's output. I am wondering about how different voltages, for example, effect the way the magnet and voice coil respond to each other in order to move the coil and diaphragm. Impulse response doesn't change at all with higher voltages? What about harmonic distortion?
I'm not sure I understand. if the headphone isn't garbage, changing the volume level(so the voltage output) is going to be pretty linear. for example if you cut the voltage in half several times, each time you will effectively measure a decrease of about 6dB in amplitude. it won't be 6dB at first and then 10dB or only 3dB.
if the headphone has a specific FR and you change the voltage output of the sweep or impulse or noise(whatever you use to measure the response), you will end up with the same frequency response curve just at a different loudness. of course that is so long as the headphone is fairly linear and you're within the normal range of operation. if you go too low you'll start measuring ambient noise or the amp's noise instead of the driver, if you go too high you'll reach physical limits for the driver movement or maybe the coil will get too hot and you will measure mostly distortions(and maybe break the headphone). the distortions after such a limit will keep increasing greatly as you increase the voltage.


but for all that to happen, it first implies to change the voltage output, which means changing the listening level. you can't increase the voltage without making the sound louder. so that's what I don't understand in your questions. just replacing an amp that can't go above 3V with one that can get to 10V, in both cases if your comfortable listening level is achieved with peaks around 1V, you will set both to output up to 1V. and that's what they ll do, no matter if they can output 3 or 10V when you max out the volume knob. the only way for the amp to push up to 4V into the headphone is to make the music 12dB louder than it was when set for 1V.
for all intent and purposes, consider that increasing voltage means increasing loudness. you can't change only one of those 2.
 
Sep 29, 2018 at 11:19 AM Post #60 of 130
I've been experimenting with the different output impedance settings offered by the AT-HA5050H headphone amp. It gives the choice of 0.1, 33, 82 and 120 ohms. I'd assumed going from 0.1 ohms to 120 ohms would turn my HD600s into a loose, uncontrolled and bloomy mess but I was wrong! The bass has indeed plumped out a little, but I'm more surprised by the effect it's had elsewhere. It seems to have improved the soundstage and fluidity, and has pushed the mids back a little whilst giving the top end a sweet and shimmering wetness. I really like the effect, but I'm confused because I thought that output impedance mainly affected bass response, and also headphones that have large impedance swings. The HD600's impedance curve between 1kHz and 10kHz is as flat as a pancake, though it does begin to rise slightly above 10kHz. Does this explain the effect I'm hearing? I feel rather naughty because I am clearly violating the "less than 1/8th" rule between load and output impedance.
 

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