[539465]

ok I got to like page 5 before I just decided to skip here because im going to get updates for this thread anyway

has anyone posted any FR graphs here? :S

 

[Lolito]

I don't have any experience in desktop DACs since I've always been an IEM/portable set up type of person. I actually haven't been in the audiophile world since late 2013'ish and just returned in November this year when I bought the Stellias which I love and remain my favourite headphones. I was driving them from my iPhone 6 and iPod nano and they still blew my mind since I was upgrading them from some CIEM I bought in 2010.Then I found a massive improvement in sound when I upgraded my source to Sony WM1Z. At that point I was still reluctant to fully commit to a desktop setup.

I eventually decided to expand beyond the portable world and added an full sized tube amp (Manley Absolute) and now I am considering adding a full sized DAC to replace my WM1Z. However, I am really unsure to HOW MUCH improvement upgrading a DAC will yield considering I am in the believer that headphones > amps > dacs in importance.

To give an idea of how I hear improvements, since buying the Stellia, I've researched/tried open back counterparts including Utopia, LCD4, Empyrean, HD820, and Susvara. All of them except the Susvara had a major deal breaker somewhere in sound that I couldn't overlook. Susvara is the only 1 that did nothing wrong to my ears and I bought those to complement my Stellia. In comparison, the Susvaras are clearly a level above Stellia in every comparable category like sound stage, imaging, separation, detail retrieval, dynamics, etc... How much improvement I perceived in technical performance from Stellia to Susvara is what led me to asking the question in this thread.

The improvements were noticeable but it definitely wasn't night and day difference. For example, I heard small details in songs on Susvara that I never heard on Stellia, like maybe a bell in the background somewhere, echos, or small bass beats in the distance, nothing major, just little extras here and there. Images had a sharper outlines around them and so forth. It's hard to put a numerical value to these improvement but if I had to I'd say it's 10-15% improvement in technicalities.

So, if I perceive a 10-15% performance improvement from Stellia to Susvara, how much improvement will I perceive if I upgrade from WM1Z as my DAC to something like TT2+MScaler or DAVE?

I am aware of the diminishing returns in each dollar spent. However, is the performance gap between the DAC in the WM1Z and something like TT2 greater than that of the Stellia to Susvara, leading to more significant improvements overall?

Edit:
To expand a bit on what I am looking for, I enjoy WM1Z's rich, organic, laid back sound signature. I do NOT like forward, aggressive, analytical & bright sound signatures.

My "perfect" or "ideal" sound signature is warm, natural, slight bass/treble emphasis, wide & deep soundstage for EDM/Trance/Techno/Retro, hip hop/rap, r&b, and pop (I don't listen to any other genres). Extracting every last detail & technical precision isn't as important as overall enjoyability of the music

I would suggest to try to demo or spend some time with "affordable" "good" desktop dacs. The sony is an amazing unit, for a premium DAP, but dap dacs are normally low quality, and that sony is no exception. Try stuff like a RME, or topping A90, but maybe RME is the best sigma delta dac for the price, and costs 999$, it's a great delta sigma dac and should sound better than your sony. You can also get an ARES2, which would be a great r2r ac for the price, different sound from delta sigma. And finally a god but cheap elta sigma dac, like e30 or heresy or jds dac or gheselly... even those can sound better than your sony. I say can, because your ears have the last word.

 

[sajunky]

I'd like to take your attention to a new Audio GD R-8 MKII. While DI-20 introduced an innovative bi-directional USB isolator (removing a need for PLL reclocking), followed a year later in all DAC 2021 models, MKII version is completely changing how internal operation works. It is said clearly that there is no PLL clock synchronisation on both USB and I2S connection. Elimination of PLL means that there is no added jitter on these connections, a ladder receive a clock directly form a pair of internal clock oscilators.

I had to agree (silently) with a comment made by @kumar402 here, and this release changes things even further, placing more focus on a quality of the internal clock, thank you for your comment.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

Also, I saw Holo is discontinuing all Level 2 DACs. This means there should be some sales of leftovers like there are for Audio-gd and also to expect some kind of meaningful change in Holo 3s which will be out shortly.

Very bad time to have an itchy trigger finger on the audio wallet...

 

[JDFlood]

I would suggest to try to demo or spend some time with "affordable" "good" desktop dacs. The sony is an amazing unit, for a premium DAP, but dap dacs are normally low quality, and that sony is no exception. Try stuff like a RME, or topping A90, but maybe RME is the best sigma delta dac for the price, and costs 999$, it's a great delta sigma dac and should sound better than your sony. You can also get an ARES2, which would be a great r2r ac for the price, different sound from delta sigma. And finally a god but cheap elta sigma dac, like e30 or heresy or jds dac or gheselly... even those can sound better than your sony. I say can, because your ears have the last word.

I have to agree. In general, desktop DACs are much better than even very high end DAPs. I have a A&K SP1000 and it is good for travel but all my deskops have been better.

 

[JDFlood]

OK. What happens in the 'breaking in' period?

The sound becomes less crisp, more natural. The bass tightens. The noise floor drops which makes the soundstage open up. Many of the sounds become smooth sounding instead of rough.

 

[Whazzzup]

well desktops, the better ones, are of milled block design so reduces vibrations, plus they can apply better analogue components, galvanized ports etc... Not to mention power supply as well as fixed XLR out for balanced pre amplification if you desire. So agree desktops are better than portables generally, they just are not portable.

 

[gimmeheadroom]

I would posit that in chipdacs any break in occurs in the brain. Not sure about R2R DACs, everybody seems to say there is a physical change for the better. My question is how long does it stay better and why doesn't it get worse, unfortunate bell curve etc.

 

[Whazzzup]

Cant speak for r2r but chord dacs common knowledge no burn in required. Now my server recommends 200 hours to reach peak. Not only that never turn it off. My pre amp has neutral feelings but leaving it on is preferred , so I leave my whole system on 24/7. Concerning specialty cables, interconnects, I dunno. The bias is burn in but who knows, considering things were acquired at different times hard to say, in time it sounded better but maybe I just got used to it.

 

[TDinCali]

I agree that DAC's can make a difference if you have the right headphones and you have a keen ear. I recently did a A/B test between my hugo2 and my X1 Audio Sagra. There was a difference listening with my Focal Utopia's. The hugo 2 made the music brighter and more open but the Sagra gave vocals and some instruments more character/nuance. Like the vibration in a note of a voice that a singer is holding.

 

[sajunky]

XI Audio Sagra is a DAC I never heard before. It is a ladder type, so such kind of performance is expected. It does oversampling everything to 384kHz, but this natural timbre and texture is not entirely lost in the process, at least not as much as in any Delta-Sigma implementations a Chord is an example.

I have to add that what @TDinCali hear is also easily detectable on speakers (or any low resolution system). When evaluating R2R DAC, give it two weeks run, even a unit is already burned. Our brain needs a time for detoxificate (remove a simplified sound templates). This is what @gimmeheadroom say that our brain also need a burnin period. Listen to music regularly, initially at least an hour a day, you will find that you will be re-discovering your entire CD collection.

 

[chesebert]

Dac implementation > conversion tech. You would do well to remember that and not get caught up in FOTM.

 

[mammal]

So this is a weird one. I was always under the impression that the most money should go into a trandsducer (like headphones), instead of the electornics driving it. I thought, as long as the amp is powerful enough and has some headroom, and my dac is revolsing enough with some linearity, I will be fine. So was rocking Chord Hugo TT 2 and Abyss AB-1266 and was happy. But then I got dCS Bartók for home listen and within minutes I realised how much better to my ears the sound is. So much so, that I ordered one and now I am selling TT2. People talk all the time about the law of diminishing returns, and I believed that so much so that I was 100% sure I won't hear a difference with Bartók compared to TT2, yet, the difference to my ears was enough to warrant the purchase.

 

[Whazzzup]

Bartok looks very nice, but it also has a streamer built in And almost three times the price of tt2. I want and me likey

 

[Whazzzup]

As long as we’re blowing our brains out, anyone tried a Rossini dac? It’s huge doe but I like fpga.