[BS5711]

The whole audiophile community thing and Head Fi and social media discussions about the sonic differences between DACs and amplifiers and other gear and all the marking that goes along with that create a strong sense that this stuff must be true even with an understanding that in fact most of it is a fabrication to sell gear. A sense of self doubt can kick in simply because most folks buy into it and talk so passionately about it.

I have messed with gear enough to satisfy myself that it makes no difference except for outlier cases like a tube amp or my recent experience with an IEM that was fussy to frequency response changes with different output impedance where gear did make a genuine difference. However, the exceptions don't disprove the rule.

All of that said I still find myself tending to compare different or new IEM or headphones on different gear hoping for that "synergy" that audiophiles love to talk about. Sometimes I think that some set up really does have a genuine synergy until I try the IEM on other gear and realise that they just sound really good today because they are good IEM and I am in a good mood and the sun is shining.

My point being is that I totally believe, assuming modern well designed equipment, our minds create the vast majority of differences we hear outside of transducers but still I hear differences even if I am not really listening for them or expecting them. The perceived difference can simply be there with no need to even be looking for it and it is very easy to infer that the fantastic sound we hear was the result of "synergy" or some special sauce that the different amp, DAC or cable brought to the party when it is actually nothing more than mind trickery.

 

[The Jester]

People seem to be working hard to give him a highly unlikely reason he heard a difference. But it’s all too obvious that this isn’t a one in a million example of noise. It’s a case of the effect of bias that is common to every human being. He’s stacking up one clear example of sloppy comparisons and expectation after another. His resistance to accepting it probably isn’t what he thinks it is verifies the hold bias holds over his opinions.

For me I’m just wearing my diagnostic hat .. imagining it as a real “customer claims” event … for a nominal service charge the unit and the drives in question could be quickly tested by recording 30 seconds of pink noise on each drive and comparing the outputs of the unit, if as expected the three traces overlayed result in just one line then job done … if, and a big “if” there’s any variance then do the same test with another unit, if / when that shows identical results then look at any available firmware updates or replace the unit,
If that conclusion is still unacceptable then suggest customer uses flash drives that are available up to 1Tb,
Simpler option is that if flash drives “sound better” then just spend the service fee on 1Tb flash drives and post on forums that flash drives sound better to you .. which is fine, everyone is allowed an opinion, just don’t go digging for “facts” to attempt to back it up …
Life’s too short, just enjoy the music whichever way you prefer ..

 

[KinGensai]

So... @knownothing2 are you claiming that these drives produce digital signal errors in excess of 1dB through Reed Solomon error correction or LDPC if the drives use that instead? These error checking algos get extremely close to the Shannon limit, at the error levels you are talking about the signal would stop due to corruption.

 

[bigshot]

We end up spending more time talking about how it might be true in an extremely unlikely situation than we do talking about the blatantly obvious reason. That imbalance just feeds into their misconception. The truth does not always lie halfway between opposing opinions.

 

[gregorio]

No that’s not what I said nor emplied

Let's take my qualitative analysis of what I'm hearing out …

So you’re denying you wrote this in post #646, did someone break into your account and write it for you?

Magic? It’s pixie dust. And yes Virginia the dap can be warm and acurate.

If it’s “accurate” then it’s just reproducing exactly what’s in the recording. If it’s “warm”, then it’s some how changing the reproduction to make it sound warm, in which case it obviously cannot be accurate!

Yes perceptions are everything, perhaps you could perceive the same if you tried.

Firstly, how can perceptions be everything when discussing DACs, amps, etc., when they don’t have any perception. You know that inside DACs and amps are just chips, other electronic components and not human brains? So the actual fact must be the exact opposite of what you assert: Perceptions are not everything, they are literally nothing at all and have zero effect on the performance of DACs, amps, cables.
Secondly, perhaps I could if I tried but why on Earth would I want to try to perceive incorrectly when I’ve spent decades training my listening skills to perceive correctly?

Psychoacoustics isn’t necessary to listen to music

Sure it’s not, little pixies come along and use magic to create invisible speakers because stereo is not a psychoacoustic illusion.

I think I have gotten all there is to get from this forum.

Which is what, how to deny posting what you posted, that DACs and amps, etc., contain human brains and that stereo works because of little pixies performing magic? Or do you just mean you cannot get anything from this forum because the facts/science don’t support your self-contradictions and audiophile myths?

G

 

[bigshot]

I wish we could discuss more interesting topics without being sidetracked by lame thinking.

 

[gregorio]

I do not believe in magic. I am not suggesting that there is some error in retrieving the data from the disk. I am suggesting there is some small error in transferring and/translating the information between the disk and the DAC that is a result of introduced jitter or noise in the signal.

That’s a self-contradiction. If, as you suggest, the errors occur in the cable due to jitter or noise, then how does the cable know when it is attached to a HDD as opposed to an SSD, except by magic? According to your assertion/suggestion, the cable must somehow introduce more jitter or noise when attached to a HDD compared to a SSD in order for the HDD to sound different/“flat”. The cable is just a few of bits of extruded metal with shielding and connectors, it cannot “know” anything, let alone introduce more or less jitter/noise according to what it knows about what it’s connected to? If you believe it can, So you must believe in magic.

My finding that the flash drive sounded the best to me would indicate some roll for the cable in introducing noise/affecting timing.

And there’s the problem: Firstly, your finding about a difference in sound, which is not a finding about sound, you have not objectively determined any difference in the digital signal, the resultant analogue signal or the sound. The only thing you’ve found is a personal preference but not a cause for it that has anything at all to do with sound. Secondly, you then compound your error by simply inventing an explanation about cable performance for that difference in sound (which doesn’t exist anyway!), which you falsely claim is indicated but again, you have no reliable supporting evidence and your explanation in fact flies in the face of the facts and why digital audio was invented in the first place! To be fair, you didn’t invent this false explanation yourself, you’re just repeating false marketing invented many years ago.

So explain the bias inherent in that.

Huh, I already did, in the very section you quoted! You know there’s some sort of difference between a HDD and an SSD right?

I think you are trying way too hard.

No, I’m trying exactly as hard as science dictates. You on the other hand are not trying at all, you perceive something which you just falsely assume/accept is some actual difference in the data, the analogue signal and the sound and then you explain/justify it by just repeating the falsehoods and fallacies invented by audiophile marketing years/decades ago.

I can understand how this might trouble you if there is even a 1% chance that what I am describing is in fact possible, and a real outcome of using different storage devices in this application.

Firstly, what you have suggested would require considerably more than a 1 in a hundred bit error rate (BER) and Secondly, if the actual BER were even 1 in a million, then USB would be unusable. The vast majority of all files transferred over USB would be at least somewhat corrupted, so the obvious question is; are they? How many times have you experienced it? Are aircraft constantly crashing into obstacles?

Just another variable for you to consider in your day job. But I am probably suffering from “expectation bias” (or not), so it’s all good, right?

No, it is not another variable for me to consider in my day job because I’ve actually measured the performance of HDDs, SSDs and the USB protocol and there is no variability in data integrity to consider! So, it has nothing whatsoever to do with what you’re “probably suffering from” and everything to do with the objective facts, as measured by myself and countless others and as demonstrated in practice!

G

 

[71 dB]

I wish we could discuss more interesting topics without being sidetracked by lame thinking.

So boring... ...I barely care to write how boring this discussion is... ...the changes in your avatar are more interesting. I was so accustomed to the monkey.

 

[bigshot]

These guys think they’re splitting the atom, but their theories just sound ignorant. They could learn all kinds of things from Gregorio, but they waste that opportunity in favor of lame grandstanding that’s impressing no one.

 

[Blanchot]

I wish we could discuss more interesting topics without being sidetracked by lame thinking.

Much of the traffic in this subforum is generated by questions from people coming from the gear-focused parts of Head-Fi. The regulars here rarely start their own threads. Maybe you can come up with an interesting topic that doesn't involve the usual dacs, amps and cables?

 

[knownothing2]

So... @knownothing2 are you claiming that these drives produce digital signal errors in excess of 1dB through Reed Solomon error correction or LDPC if the drives use that instead? These error checking algos get extremely close to the Shannon limit, at the error levels you are talking about the signal would stop due to corruption.

No. I am suggesting that there is some interaction between the mechanical HDD powered by the Bluesound Node that produces timing or other errors in the digital output from the Node that were not catastrophic but affected sound quality, which others here understand to be very unlikely. The reason I suggested that using a cable contributed to this problem versus the flash drive is that I noticed the SSD drive also connected with a USB cable sounded slightly less good to me than the flash drive.

An alternative explanation from implicating the cable could be that the stock switching power supply built into the Node is generating more noise/jitter in the server/streamer when powering the HDD on the bus rather than either the SSD or flash drives. So the signal coming out of the Node is affected, but it is not due to a defect in the HDDs or SSD, but rather due to a possible design flaw in the Node that is challenged to quietly power the HDD versus the solid state drives. Your mileage may really vary depending on the server used.

What I don’t think is that any of the disks are “broken”. Files are stored faithfully on each disk and each musical cut is playable from each disk. They just sounded different when connected to my system as then configured.

kn

 

[KinGensai]

@knownothing2
Well, you should know the drill by now. Jitter and digital noise that is audible like that can be captured in vivo because human perception is measured in ms, which is plenty to be captured by a mic. If you are getting audible errors that bypass Reed Solomon without complete failure, let's see the recording. If there is a significant deviation in the null test, maybe we can replicate your results.

 

[bfreedma]

No. I am suggesting that there is some interaction between the mechanical HDD powered by the Bluesound Node that produces timing or other errors in the digital output from the Node that were not catastrophic but affected sound quality, which others here understand to be very unlikely. The reason I suggested that using a cable contributed to this problem versus the flash drive is that I noticed the SSD drive also connected with a USB cable sounded slightly less good to me than the flash drive.

An alternative explanation from implicating the cable could be that the stock switching power supply built into the Node is generating more noise/jitter in the server/streamer when powering the HDD on the bus rather than either the SSD or flash drives. So the signal coming out of the Node is affected, but it is not due to a defect in the HDDs or SSD, but rather due to a possible design flaw in the Node that is challenged to quietly power the HDD versus the solid state drives. Your mileage may really vary depending on the server used.

What I don’t think is that any of the disks are “broken”. Files are stored faithfully on each disk and each musical cut is playable from each disk. They just sounded different when connected to my system as then configured.

kn

Until you can rule out placebo effect via a valid testing model, there is no point in discussing other possibilities. Start there.

 

[knownothing2]

That’s a self-contradiction. If, as you suggest, the errors occur in the cable due to jitter or noise, then how does the cable know when it is attached to a HDD as opposed to an SSD, except by magic? According to your assertion/suggestion, the cable must somehow introduce more jitter or noise when attached to a HDD compared to a SSD in order for the HDD to sound different/“flat”. The cable is just a few of bits of extruded metal with shielding and connectors, it cannot “know” anything, let alone introduce more or less jitter/noise according to what it knows about what it’s connected to? If you believe it can, So you must believe in magic.

See my suggestion in subsequent post.

 

[knownothing2]

Huh, I already did, in the very section you quoted! You know there’s some sort of difference between a HDD and an SSD right

No, seriously, I hadn’t given it any thought at all until I experienced a degredation in sound quality when switching from a flash drive to an HDD. I literally had no expectations at all, but was disappointed when the quality of sound was clearly degraded. To have an “expectation bias”, one has to have “expectations”.

kn