[knownothing2]

or you are suggesting some sort of unknown process that not only magically circumvents the design of HD or SS drives and of the USB protocol itself but also magically only affects audio files and only certain specific bits within audio files. And obviously, if you do circumvent the design of drives and the transfer protocol then how do you get any data at all out of the system, let alone a recognisable audio file? Therefore, unless you have some seriously robust evidence to support your suggestion, we can only rationally conclude one of the first two options must be the case!

I do not believe in magic. I am not suggesting that there is some error in retrieving the data from the disk. I am suggesting there is some small error in transferring and/translating the information between the disk and the DAC that is a result of introduced jitter or noise in the signal. I suggest that 1) it is errors are introduced in the cable, and/or a result of the need for power from the server for the mechanical hard drive in the HDDs that is not present in the two solid state storage devices. My finding that the flash drive sounded the best to me would indicate some roll for the cable in introducing noise/affecting timing.

kn

 

[bigshot]

Disc errors would cause dropouts in the sound- gaps in the music. It couldn’t cause a “veil” over the sound. I don’t know why you don’t know this. Everyone knows what a digital glitch sounds like.

 

[KinGensai]

I do not believe in magic. I am not suggesting that there is some error in retrieving the data from the disk. I am suggesting there is some small error in transferring and/translating the information between the disk and the DAC that is a result of introduced jitter or noise in the signal. I suggest that 1) it is errors are introduced in the cable, and/or a result of the need for power from the server for the mechanical hard drive in the HDDs that is not present in the two solid state storage devices. My finding that the flash drive sounded the best to me would indicate some roll for the cable in introducing noise/affecting timing.

kn

inb4 demand for evidence...

 

[knownothing2]

This question indicates that you don’t know the basics of cognitive biases. Don’t you think it’s rather nonsensical to suppose and argue about something of which you don’t even know the basics, in a science discussion forum? FYI, the opposite of “expectation bias” in this context is still “expectation bias”, it’s just a different/opposite expectation, I’m not sure how that’s not self evident? Furthermore, “expectation bias” just predicts that if you know there’s a difference, in this case HDD vs SSD, then you might perceive a difference in sound (even though there isn’t one). It does not predict that you will definitely perceive a difference, what that difference will be if you do or how you personally will evaluate it, which is dependent on numerous factors, many of which are subconscious. Therefore, you stating that it couldn’t be expectation bias because of one single conscious expectation to the contrary, demonstrates both a fallacious argument and a lack of understanding of biases! Unfortunately though, this is a very common fallacy employed by audiophiles for decades to falsely dismiss cognitive bias/perceptual errors.

Except I heard differences between two different brands of HDD that used the same cable. So explain the bias inherent in that. I think you are trying way too hard. I can understand how this might trouble you if there is even a 1% chance that what I am describing is in fact possible, and a real outcome of using different storage devices in this application. Just another variable for you to consider in your day job. But I am probably suffering from “expectation bias” (or not), so it’s all good, right?

kn

 

[knownothing2]

Disc errors would cause dropouts in the sound- gaps in the music. It couldn’t cause a “veil” over the sound. I don’t know why you don’t know this. Everyone knows what a digital glitch sounds like.

I don’t think these are “disk errors”. I think they are post-disk errors, but related to power draw from the server USB bus and slight errors in timing that occur in the cable from the external drives.

kn

 

[knownothing2]

Stuff like this is a black hole spinning in the middle of the forum sucking everything into nothingness.

Seriously? Like “fan mail from some flounder?”

 

[bfreedma]

I do not believe in magic. I am not suggesting that there is some error in retrieving the data from the disk. I am suggesting there is some small error in transferring and/translating the information between the disk and the DAC that is a result of introduced jitter or noise in the signal. I suggest that 1) it is errors are introduced in the cable, and/or a result of the need for power from the server for the mechanical hard drive in the HDDs that is not present in the two solid state storage devices. My finding that the flash drive sounded the best to me would indicate some roll for the cable in introducing noise/affecting timing.

kn

Once again, you're ignoring the built in Error Correction in these data transfers. Please do some reading on how this actually works, because how you "believe" it works is not correct.

Only two things are technically possible here"

• The error correction works as intended/needed and the identical bits arrive from the storage device
• ECC fails and you get absolutely no output from your audio device. This is rare and usually caused by mechanical failure of the drive

One thing is not possible

• The type of drive/connection alters sound in a repeatable and predictable way.

 

[bfreedma]

I don’t think these are “disk errors”. I think they are post-disk errors, but related to power draw from the server USB bus and slight errors in timing that occur in the cable from the external drives.

kn

Um, no.

Please spend a few hours learning about digital data transmission and error correction - it will (hopefully) get you out of this loop you're stuck in trying to rationalize what you believe is happening and give you at least a baseline for how these technology implementations work.

 

[castleofargh]

I do not believe in magic. I am not suggesting that there is some error in retrieving the data from the disk. I am suggesting there is some small error in transferring and/translating the information between the disk and the DAC that is a result of introduced jitter or noise in the signal. I suggest that 1) it is errors are introduced in the cable, and/or a result of the need for power from the server for the mechanical hard drive in the HDDs that is not present in the two solid state storage devices. My finding that the flash drive sounded the best to me would indicate some roll for the cable in introducing noise/affecting timing.

kn

The way you worded this doesn't help you, IMO. Anything changing the digital code often enough to change the sound audibly while not creating crazy audio artifacts or more likely just a dramatic error stopping the stream, would statistically be something of a miracle.
What in principle at least could happen is noise or power issue leading to some effect on the analog side of the circuit. Something about grounding maybe, allowing some mess to move from one place to another where it has no business being. In principle, that seems possible. Audible is a very distinct question, one that needs serious evidence because the likelihood of that making a consistent audible sound change against the odds of human error, I would still bet on the human being wrong and expect to win a majority of the time.
I don't want to be as dismissive as the colleagues because while the odds don't seem in favor of your impressions, I do not know or think that it's strictly impossible for something causing something that ends up audible. Actually changing the bits is just not a plausible reason.



About biases, there are many. Some go away when we are aware of them, some don't. Some are linked to our desires or expectations and can be reinforced by them, some are so automated and really about how the "circuit" is wired, that the decision is made before we are conscious of it(if we ever are). I imagine it's still always about associations and previous experiences because that's how we learn to learn. But with the caveat that to our neurons, correlation and causation are pretty much the same thing, and it's more about variables like the amount of exposure than about the pure rationality of the relation.
We have blind tests in various domains where the results get statistically tilted toward a response because the samples are labelled with a letter or a color.

 

[bigshot]

I don’t think these are “disk errors”. I think they are post-disk errors, but related to power draw from the server USB bus and slight errors in timing that occur in the cable from the external drives.

You don’t know much about how computers work. There’s no such thing as post disk error. The file is delivered by the hard drive to the DAC where it’s loaded into a cache. The file is then streamed from the cache by the DAC. The file is either delivered intact to the DAC or it isn’t. If the file is corrupted, it will fail completely at certain points. It can’t have some sort of coloration across the whole file. Digital is all or nothing. If it fails, it fails big.

The drives all sounded the same. You expected to hear differences, so you did. You expect to hear differences with everything, so you do. The most likely explanation for that is expectation bias.

The other possibility is user error. I have no idea what you would have to do wrong to get that result, but you know so little about how this stuff works, it’s possible that you’re doing something wrong.

 

[The Jester]

Depends on the software driver used for the sound chip, ASIO or WASAPI Windows driver software both bypass any system mixer or other manipulation’s, even so if everything remains constant the USB input shouldn’t alter between storage drives …

 

[BS5711]

I do not believe in magic …….

You actually do and you prefer to keep it that way because it suits your audio obsession.

You have now listed several things that you hear differences with that fly in the face of scientific understanding and are continually unwilling to understand the huge effect our other senses, mood etc have on what we perceive as sound versus what, in reality, is actually coming out of the IEM, headphones or speakers.

I get that, if you accepted the reality most of your hobby/obsession would crumble around you and you would only have transducers left as a genuine variable and would have to enjoy music rather than obsess over equipment. What fun is that ?

 

[bigshot]

I guess letting go of all those misconceptions would send him back to square one and he’d have to start learning all over again. I love learning new things myself, but these people seem to resist it as if finding out new things is painful to them.

 

[The Jester]

USB chip also uses software drivers to implement the various functions available, devices like some DVD / BluRay players have USB inputs that only support flash drives, some earlier ones even limit the size of the flash drive used,
USB protocols differe between portable HDD’s and flash drives, PortableHDD’s use a drive controller with an onboard cache memory and can use 4 data transfer channels, Flash drives have no controller chip or cache and only have 2 data channels available but the data in both cases is still digital so only some sort of induced noise getting all the way to the analogue output of the DAC could make any difference to the final analogue output, if this is happening it’s either a fundamentally flawed design somewhere or a software issue … some manufacturers release firmware updates for various hardware which may contain updates to deal with certain incompatibilities or improve certain functions.

 

[bigshot]

People seem to be working hard to give him a highly unlikely reason he heard a difference. But it’s all too obvious that this isn’t a one in a million example of noise. It’s a case of the effect of bias that is common to every human being. He’s stacking up one clear example of sloppy comparisons and expectation after another. His resistance to accepting it probably isn’t what he thinks it is verifies the hold bias holds over his opinions.