[crhodes64]

Hi- I'm an electronics engineer and an audiofile but I'm new to the world of headphones.

I've been trying a bunch of bluetooth over ear headphones - all the usual suspects Sony XM3, Bose 700 and I tried the Sennheiser Momentum 3's with my iphone7 and I was impressed.

Next step was to try to find out if I really wanted bluetooth headphones or of what I really wanted were wired audiofile phones. Que the demo room at Richer sounds along with my Laptop, Foobar2000 and a ton of uncompressed FLAC content. I normally play my audio content from my PC into a DAC Magic codec and then have balanced XLR's feeding a pair of Active ATC SCM50 studio monitors - I find this produces excellent results.

So, after liking the sound of the Momentum 3's with my iphone 7 on bluetooth - I then set-about tryng these and a bunch of other headphones as wired headphones - I tried the Momentum 2.0 and the Momentum 3 and then also tried a £2000 set of Sennheiser 820's with a headphone pre-amp that was the size of a biscuit tin - Oh and I also tried the Momentum 2.0 and Momentum 3.0 with the Dragonfly Cobalt.

What I found out - unsurprising that the Sennheiser 820's sounded best - but for £2000 what did I expect?
What really surprised me was how good the momentum 3's were in wired config - either using the analogue out of my laptop or connecting to them directly via the USB so they turn up directly in Foobar2000 as a valid playback device.

I could not detect any benefit of using the Dragonfly cobalt which surprised me - if anything the Dragonfly appeared to reduce the volume of the headphones making them less loud and it did not appear to deliver any improvement in sound clarity or quality. Surprising - why would anyone use this thing?

I was also surprised by how good the £99 Momentum 2.0 headphones are - but in the end decided on the momentum 3's mainly due to comfort and build quality and the sound stage being better and overall sounded more Hi Fi.

I find the blue tooth is good but the wired performance is significantly better - What is frustrating me is that I can find nobody who seems to review the Momentum 3's as wired phones ? Also, annoyed that I can't seem to find any information about using these headphones in a wired configuration - For example if I use the analogue CODEC in my laptop and connect to the Momentum 3's this way - the headphones appear to disable bluetooth - meaning that I cannot see the headphones from the Sennheiser app on my phone. What are the benefits of using them with analogue input as opposed to using them with a USB connection to my laptop?

If I use the USB connection I seem to get excellent results but I'm unsure which codec I'm actually using?
Am I using the laptop codec or a codec in Foobar2000? I'm guessing that I'm using the codec in the headphones but which codec? what chip? what bit rate? Anyone out there in Head-Fi land able to offer any assistance - I'd love to know the answers.

Before some smart alec pipes up with why did you buy a bluetooth headphone - I wanted something that I could use for air travel with an option for noise cancellation, while not compromising on sound quality when wired.

In my listening test I found the Sennheiser 820's were very good but not that much better than the wired Momentum 3's - in my opinion.

Thanks for any advice about using these phones in the different wired modes.

Anyone out there in Youtube review land - how about a more complete and technically detailed review of these excellent headphones, including using them as wired headphones please - everything I see on Youtube around these headphones is missing the key point that they are in fact an excellent hybrid solution - Bluetooth 5.0 + Noise cancelling and brilliant wired headphones.

Cheers

Colin

 

[Abrahans]

Nice info, what is the difference with momentum 2? More highs and bigger soundstage? I listen wired only but in this case i could take advantage of bluetooth, I like m2 and i think of upgrading and getting back the Oppo pm3s..

 

[rgledhill]

Hi Colin,
Thought you might like an answer after all this time
When you're plugged in via a 3.5mm analogue cable, you're using not just the codecs in the PC/phone (which decompresses the music file, if compressed, and turns it into raw audio as you'd get on a CD track), but you're also using the PC's DAC which is likely to be a bit rubbish unless it's a really decent audio card.
When you're plugged in via USB, you're still using the codec on the PC/phone, but as this is is all digital, there's no change in quality or potential for improvement - it's just like using Winzip to decompress a file. The uncompressed data is then sent via USB to the headphones, where it uses the headphones' own DAC.
When you're connected via Bluetooth, it's slightly more complex; the data is uncompressed by the codec on the PC/phone, but then re-compressed again by the Bluetooth chip for transmission over the air. This format can be old-school audio, AptX (a higher bit-rate, better quality codec), AptX HD (better again), or AptX LL (Low Latency, designed to minimise the inconsistencies of getting data over the air from PC/phone to headphones).

Once the sound is in the headphones, it may be further modified by the on-chip DSP. If the data has arrived digitally into the phones (USB, Bluetooth) then it stays digitally modified in the DSP before being passed to the DAC. This is where the noise cancellation and EQ occurs.

If the sound has arrived in analogue form through a 3.5mm cable, some phones will convert it to digital format, send it through the DSP for EQ and ANC, then back out via the DAC to the speakers. Some will literally just pass the sound through to the speakers. This is why many headphones with ANC sound poor when used in analogue 3.5mm cable mode - they lose all the EQ that's put in there to try and improve the sound response of the speakers.

Hope this helps! I've got some Sennheiser Momentum 3, Beyerdynamic Amiron and Shure SRH1540 headphones on order from Amazon for comparison...

Cheers
Richard

 

[rgledhill]

@crhodes64 ?

 

[TheMiki]

Hi Richard,
I have recently purchased Momentum 3. They have been discounted to incredible 200$, so decision was immediate. I always liked Momentum quality build, with stainless steel head band and sheep skin ear pads, which are in my understanding virtually indestructible. There is as well good sound which I remember I heard on Momentum 1. Beside these, I have also AKG K545, which are also wonderful, but recently I had to replace earpads and head band cushion which suddenly degraded due to unknown reason, while seating in a hardcase. This was another reason to make me look at M3.
I like the sound of M3 through BT. It might not be as good as AKG, but some songs might sound better, where AKG sounds bit sharp/harsh.
From your reply I see you understand very well the way wireless headphones work, what is in line with my observation. One thing which I'm bit disappointed is sound through the 3.5mm cable. I'm talking about true passive mode with power off, not wired with power on. I read many opinions that M3 sounds much better in passive mode, but my experience is completely opposite. Plugged into the laptop (HP with B&O software), M3 sounds very dry and different from active mode. There seem to be the potential, but sound needs to be adjusted in laptop EQ, if you ever manage to set it right. With my AKG, you literally need zero adjustment to get wonderful sound, wherever you plug it in. I was hoping, I will get from M3 sound which I remember from M1, but these seem to be very different. I think M1 impedance was 18ohms, while it was raised to 100ohms in M3. Is this the reason for such a difference? I noticed that fans which found active mode great always use headphone amps which help driving high impedance headphones. Is this necessary to use them passive or not even this would help. AKG are 32ohms what is probably optimal for consumer use.
From your response, I understood that you were expecting delivery from Amazon. I'm just wondering what is your finding on passive mode? Happy to hear from you.

Regards,
Miroslav

 

[rgledhill]

Hi Miroslav,
That was ages ago... I ended up keeping the Beyerdynamic Amiron Wireless because the spatial sound was head and shoulders above the other two. The bass doesn't go as low but the sense of openness is just amazing.
The Momentum 3s were my second choice though and I enjoyed listening to them a lot. $200 is a great price! If I remember correctly, I didn't try them in passive mode. Many headphones with Bluetooth these days have a built in DSP which works with the frequency response of the driver and enclosure to give the best sound; however this means that if the headphones are powered off (true passive) then the frequency response tends to be very dull and uninteresting. I found this on previous headphones too that have Bluetooth or a DAC built into them. In the end you're better off listening to them powered on but with the audio source from the 3.5mm jack plug.

That said, a laptop generally will have a pretty poor DAC built into it, so for really good quality you'll be better off with a decent USB DAC or simply to use Bluetooth on your laptop to send the audio to your headphones.

Unfortunately I can't really help beyond this as I sent back the Momentum 3s without testing them too deeply as I wanted them to be "as new" for the next customer, and I quickly realised that the Beyers gave me the sound I wanted.

Hope this helps!

Cheers
Richard

 

[TheMiki]

Richard,
Thanks for the prompt response. You are right, I'll use it with their internal DAC/amp, as they do decent job, either through BT or USB. This is how they are supposed to be used.

Cheers,
M

 

[rgledhill]

No problem. Have fun and enjoy your headphones, they're excellent value at $200, that's for sure!

 

[johnfive23]

Hello guys, i bought dac and amp for wired listening, because i have iphone and nice aac codec inside. But its little disappointing for me. When listening wired im hear more details but via BT is sound more pure. Now im looking for some DAP with aptx support and normal headphones for my amp/dac combo. But dont know which price range sound better then M3 wired. I cant throw my money from window for same or vorse sound. If you have some advice for me, i will be glad. And sorry for my crappy english.
Radek

 

[TheMiki]

Hi Radek,
So you are getting better sound with wired headphones then through BT? Are you using M3 wired in passive mode? You may use them wired in active or passive mode. In active mode you will still use internal headphone amp, while in passive mode you will really use only you DAC/AMP without help of internal headphone electronics. To start them in a passive mode, you need to open them with middle button pressed. You should hear "power off" from the headphones. Then plug the 3.5mm cable, and start .you DAC/AMP. Sorry for the instruction, if you already doing so. I noticed some people don't know the difference.
Not sure about the codec used with iPhone, but M3 connects to Android devices using aptX. You can also opt for AAC, but it is more battery consuming. I cannot see difference. They sound well to me in any way. I don't have dedicated DAC and amp so I'm getting fairly poor sound in passive mode. Not sure if they require amp for 100ohms.

Unfortunately, I cannot recommend anything, as I'm not trying many models, but there are plenty on the market. It is really up to what you would personally prefer.

Regards,
Miroslav

 

[johnfive23]

Thank you for fast reaction. Yes, im listening in passive mod. My combo is topping L30 and E30. Its sad when is no difference between aac and aptx.

 

[TheMiki]

Radek,
I did not notice, but it does not mean there is no difference. I cannot switch codec quickly enough to compare, and most probably, my ears are not that sensitive. My understanding is that AAC provides better sound. You can try with some devise which supports both codecs, however, both codecs are lossy.

BR,
M

 

[johnfive23]

Radek,
I did not notice, but it does not mean there is no difference. I cannot switch codec quickly enough to compare, and most probably, my ears are not that sensitive. My understanding is that AAC provides better sound. You can try with some devise which supports both codecs, however, both codecs are lossy.

BR,
M

Thank you!
Now im reading this topic
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/iphone-aac-vs-aptx-and-aptx-hd-real-world.861978/page-4

big discusion, AAC really looks better!

 

[rickhedin]

Hi Colin,
Thought you might like an answer after all this time
When you're plugged in via a 3.5mm analogue cable, you're using not just the codecs in the PC/phone (which decompresses the music file, if compressed, and turns it into raw audio as you'd get on a CD track), but you're also using the PC's DAC which is likely to be a bit rubbish unless it's a really decent audio card.
When you're plugged in via USB, you're still using the codec on the PC/phone, but as this is is all digital, there's no change in quality or potential for improvement - it's just like using Winzip to decompress a file. The uncompressed data is then sent via USB to the headphones, where it uses the headphones' own DAC.
When you're connected via Bluetooth, it's slightly more complex; the data is uncompressed by the codec on the PC/phone, but then re-compressed again by the Bluetooth chip for transmission over the air. This format can be old-school audio, AptX (a higher bit-rate, better quality codec), AptX HD (better again), or AptX LL (Low Latency, designed to minimise the inconsistencies of getting data over the air from PC/phone to headphones).

Once the sound is in the headphones, it may be further modified by the on-chip DSP. If the data has arrived digitally into the phones (USB, Bluetooth) then it stays digitally modified in the DSP before being passed to the DAC. This is where the noise cancellation and EQ occurs.

If the sound has arrived in analogue form through a 3.5mm cable, some phones will convert it to digital format, send it through the DSP for EQ and ANC, then back out via the DAC to the speakers. Some will literally just pass the sound through to the speakers. This is why many headphones with ANC sound poor when used in analogue 3.5mm cable mode - they lose all the EQ that's put in there to try and improve the sound response of the speakers.

Hope this helps! I've got some Sennheiser Momentum 3, Beyerdynamic Amiron and Shure SRH1540 headphones on order from Amazon for comparison...

Cheers
Richard

Hi, Richard.

I'm hoping to get some advice from you. You seem to have a clearer picture of the codecs and DACs than I do. Basically, the question comes down to: If I have Tidal on one side, and a nice pair of headphones on the other, how do I connect the two together so that I hear the fewest distortions, and the most details.

I bought a Bluesound Node2i to play music sourced from Tidal over bluetooth to a pair of Denon AH-GC30 headphones. I chose the Denon's because they had the fancy kind of bluetooth, that the Node2i's also support.

I have recently noticed that the music sounds much more lively and engaging playing from my Macbook Pro, rather than the Node2i. So I'm looking at rethinking.

The ideal thing would be if Tidal sold or recommended a device specifically made to bring the Tidal source to a pair of headphones. Since I have no commitment to any particular device to connect Tidal to my headphones, and I have no commitment to any particular type of headphones, what would you recommend?

Regards, Rick

 

[rgledhill]

Hello,
I think the simple answer is that (as far as I know) all wireless codecs involve a degree of compression, which defeats the point of paying for uncompressed hi-res audio from Tidal. The best bet is to use a USB cable from the headphones to your audio source, if you can. The systems should agree on a lossless data transfer across to the headphones so that it can use its internal DAC to do the conversion, rather than the uncompressed Tidal stream being compressed for transmission over Bluetooth.
To be honest though, in my experience, there's relatively little difference between using a cable, using AptX HD and using AptX - and this is doing back-to-back testing using my Beyerdynamics Amiron headphones which were a significant improvement on the Sennheisers. If you're noticing that much difference between the Mac and the Node2i, I'd say that the Mac is probably doing some audio processing to "brighten" the sound, as the Node2i should be the truest sound quality. Check the settings on your Mac.
Basically the Node2i should give you the best, truest sound.
Hope this helps!
Richard