How do I get round a hi-fi amplifier's "poor" headphones output?

[pp312]

   I feel like I am repeating myself a lot

 
That could indeed be the case. And if I were to reply I fear I'd be doing the same.

 

[nicholars]

   
That could indeed be the case. And if I were to reply I fear I'd be doing the same.

 
So can we agree that a good dedicated headphone amp sounds better than a speaker amp headphone jack? It would make me happy if we can agree on that.

 

[pp312]

I'm afraid you're going to have to remain vaguely unhappy, nicholars. But you do get points for persistence. Quite a few of them, in fact.

 

[nicholars]

 

[Focker]

  I'm sorry, but many blind tests have found you in error. Two properly designed amps can not be differentiated in blind testing.

 
In all fairness, there is also criticism of blind testing and questions pertaining to how pertinent and useful it is with regard to audio. 

 

[Mr Rick]

   
In all fairness, there is also criticism of blind testing and questions pertaining to how pertinent and useful it is with regard to audio. 

 
 
Blind testing has been done by respected audiophiles and respected audiophile publications. I would expect any criticisms to be unfounded . As are the original claims of sonic differences.

 

[Focker]

   
 
Blind testing has been done by respected audiophiles and respected audiophile publications. I would expect any criticisms to be unfounded . As are the original claims of sonic differences.

 
I don't necessarily disagree...I just think people should know that there are criticisms so they can look them up and come to their own conclusions. 

 

[nicholars]

   
 
Blind testing has been done by respected audiophiles and respected audiophile publications. I would expect any criticisms to be unfounded . As are the original claims of sonic differences.

 
So you think all amps and dacs sound the same? For example a £50 dac and amp has the same sound quality as a NAD Masters series or naim dac / amp?

 

[Mr Rick]

   
So you think all amps and dacs sound the same? For example a £50 dac and amp has the same sound quality as a NAD Masters series or naim dac / amp?

Given the same conditions, YES!!

 

[Sonic Defender]

  Given the same conditions, YES!!

Sorry, but now you have really over extended yourself. You had better start bringing some serious evidence to back yourself up. We need some real data.

 

[pp312]

After 50 years experience with audio I'd have to say I can certainly hear differences in amplifiers and they're not always subtle. (Well, they would be to your average Joe. but we're supposed to be audiophools..er, audiophiles). Using DT880s I can plug into different amps and know within a minute whether I'm going to be able to live with the product or not. Now of course someone will say it's probably because of different output impedances, but I doubt it. Most integrateds have between 120 and 220 ohm output impedance, and I can't see that making the sorts of differences I'm hearing, like a thick, undifferentiated sound compared to one that's light and airy.
 
Of course, if someone can provide an alternative explanation I'd be happy to consider it. Not self-deception though.    

 

[nicholars]

  After 50 years experience with audio I'd have to say I can certainly hear differences in amplifiers and they're not always subtle. (Well, they would be to your average Joe. but we're supposed to be audiophools..er, audiophiles). Using DT880s I can plug into different amps and know within a minute whether I'm going to be able to live with the product or not. Now of course someone will say it's probably because of different output impedances, but I doubt it. Most integrateds have between 120 and 220 ohm output impedance, and I can't see that making the sorts of differences I'm hearing, like a thick, undifferentiated sound compared to one that's light and airy.
 
Of course, if someone can provide an alternative explanation I'd be happy to consider it. Not self-deception though.    

 
That is what ouput impedance can do to low impedance headphones as far as I know (thick, undifferentiated sound). Also its not designed for headphones in the first place as its a speaker amp first, headphone jack second. But yes amplifiers (and Dac's) sound different (and TBH if you cannot hear any differences at all you may as well just get some cheap headphones and a cheap amp and call it a day)

 

[pp312]

Sorry, but I have to say rubbish to the above. First, my headphones are not low impedance. As stated, they are the 250 ohm DT880 Pro. Before them I had the 300 ohm HD650. Low impedance doesn't come into it. (And incidentally, 90% of headphones are not low impedance. I suggest you pulled that figure out of your backside, much as I dislike that expression). And are you seriously saying that headphone jacks on speaker amps are not designed for headphones? So why does it say 'Headphones' under the jack? Frankly, that's just nonsense.
 
And what does 'if you cannot hear any differences at all' mean when I've just finished describing the differences I hear between amps? Are you actually reading my posts? Nothing you've said makes sense nor takes account of previous postings by me or anyone else. You seem intent on pushing this 'speaker amps are for speakers only' line in defiance of common sense and any sort of middle way. Wouldn't the sensible line be 'yes, the better speaker amps are capable of equal or even better performance with high impedance headphones than many dedicated amps' rather than your dismissively extreme position, which surely only you could take seriously. Please, if we must continue to debate this issue beyond the 'agree to disagree' point, at least adopt a reasonable debating position that takes account of logic and previous postings.

 

[nicholars]

(The cannot hear any differences bit was not aimed at you)
 
I already said they sound ok or good for some headphones but are not ideal as they are primarily designed as speaker amps not headphones, thus the headphone aspect is an afterthought. Not exactly an extreme opinion is it... If anything your opinion is the extreme one...
 
my opinion "speaker amps are good with some headphones but a good headphone amp is better"
 
Your opinion "speaker amp headphone jacks are better than dedicated headphone amps"
 
Which is the "extreme" opinion?
 
Ok I am officially bored of this conversation now so we will leave it at that.

 

[pp312]

Not until we correct this sentence:
 
'Your opinion "speaker amp headphone jacks are better than dedicated headphone amps"'
 
That's something I never said. What I said was:
 
'the better speaker amps are capable of equal or even better performance with high impedance headphones than many dedicated amps'.
 
If you can't see the difference I suggest you attend a debating class.