How Digital Audio works
Oct 9, 2014 at 9:51 AM Post #16 of 29
 
Mshenay, you are certainly right about many of these exchanges--I almost wrote debates, but they are often, perhaps usually, not that--that occur on internet boards. It was not my intent to appear to be a braggart, or proud either of myself or my son. I apologize for giving that impression.
 
That said, what made me speak up was that I was offended by Monty's tone in his video. I believe that he oozes a smugness that he has not earned, and will not have earned, until he learns a lot more math. Sorry if that bothers you, but it's the math that underlies this stuff that's really important.
 
So, I will try to explain what I was trying to say one more time, and then I'll shut up.
 
Here's the thing. Everyone who says that Redbook digital is just fine and dandy because its cutoff frequency--22.05kHz--is above the upper limit of normal human hearing--20kHz--and then cites the Nyquist Theorem to back it up is citing a flawed version of the Nyquist Theorem. That theorem actually applies to continuous functions only--things that look like those sine waves that Monty put up on his scopes. Once he goes to a square wave, as he actually demonstrated, the ability to reproduce the wave through sampling no longer exists. That's what happens when you bandwidth limit that square wave--you get all those ripples, and the rise time is slower than the original square wave was, and the resulting output wave has the ripples and the slow rise time too. So Monty, instead of demonstrating the principle that digital audio is a really good reproducer of original signals, actually demonstrated the principle of garbage in, garbage out. He didn't reproduce the square wave. He reproduced his bandwidth limited version of the square wave.
 
As for Bigshot's issue of whether musical transients are slow enough for digital reproduction to capture them, well, some are discernible and some are not. To say that a snare drum hit takes 1/5 second isn't the relevant fact. You need to know what the snare drum hit's rise time is. I haven't been able to find that in a quick bout of googling, but I have found that the rise time of a cymbal hit is 1ms--1/1,000 second. With the high frequencies involved in that cymbal hit, you're going to need to be very lucky to get the samples to capture them in the time of that rise. Yes, you will get the decay, but you want both, accurately. Moreover, there are lots of musical sounds that have faster rise times, indeed, infinitely fast rise times--plucked strings and hammered piano strings, for example. In both, the string starts in a deformed position and then it is released, and therefore the string's vibrations begin upon the release, so the attack portion of its wave envelope has infinite slope. That's the kind of discontinuity I'm talking about.
 
No sampling frequency can truly accurately convey these transients within the meaning of Nyquist-Shannon, but when you increase the sampling frequency, you increase the probability that you will do a better job of conveying the information you are digitizing. That's the point of a higher sampling frequency, and that's why, as you increase the sampling frequency you will get better and better fidelity, although admittedly you're also going to reach a point of diminishing marginal returns at some sampling frequency. The question becomes what that frequency is for the vast majority of people, and for the vast majority of critical listeners.

See now I feel like idiot for saying something, but thanks @Kokomo O , the post reads in a different tone and this thread is thus far pretty interesting stuff.  I'm enjoying what all you "ejamucated" fellows have to say 
 
Oct 9, 2014 at 10:41 AM Post #17 of 29
Mshenay, you shouldn't feel like an idiot at all. You were right, and within your rights, to call me out. Before my last post, I went back and read my prior one, and I was indeed out of line, which is why I was careful to apologize for my tone, and not just use the hackneyed "sorry if I offended you" construction.
 
That said, I was serious when I said I was done with further discussion here after my last post. If you have additional questions, feel free to pm me.
 
Oct 9, 2014 at 1:12 PM Post #18 of 29
Quote:
 
 
 
Here's the thing. Everyone who says that Redbook digital is just fine and dandy because its cutoff frequency--22.05kHz--is above the upper limit of normal human hearing--20kHz--and then cites the Nyquist Theorem to back it up is citing a flawed version of the Nyquist Theorem. That theorem actually applies to continuous functions only--things that look like those sine waves that Monty put up on his scopes. Once he goes to a square wave, as he actually demonstrated, the ability to reproduce the wave through sampling no longer exists. That's what happens when you bandwidth limit that square wave--you get all those ripples, and the rise time is slower than the original square wave was, and the resulting output wave has the ripples and the slow rise time too. So Monty, instead of demonstrating the principle that digital audio is a really good reproducer of original signals, actually demonstrated the principle of garbage in, garbage out. He didn't reproduce the square wave. He reproduced his bandwidth limited version of the square wave.
 
As for Bigshot's issue of whether musical transients are slow enough for digital reproduction to capture them, well, some are discernible and some are not. To say that a snare drum hit takes 1/5 second isn't the relevant fact. You need to know what the snare drum hit's rise time is. I haven't been able to find that in a quick bout of googling, but I have found that the rise time of a cymbal hit is 1ms--1/1,000 second. With the high frequencies involved in that cymbal hit, you're going to need to be very lucky to get the samples to capture them in the time of that rise. Yes, you will get the decay, but you want both, accurately. Moreover, there are lots of musical sounds that have faster rise times, indeed, infinitely fast rise times--plucked strings and hammered piano strings, for example. In both, the string starts in a deformed position and then it is released, and therefore the string's vibrations begin upon the release, so the attack portion of its wave envelope has infinite slope. That's the kind of discontinuity I'm talking about.
 
No sampling frequency can truly accurately convey these transients within the meaning of Nyquist-Shannon, but when you increase the sampling frequency, you increase the probability that you will do a better job of conveying the information you are digitizing. That's the point of a higher sampling frequency, and that's why, as you increase the sampling frequency you will get better and better fidelity, although admittedly you're also going to reach a point of diminishing marginal returns at some sampling frequency. The question becomes what that frequency is for the vast majority of people, and for the vast majority of critical listeners.

 
The rise times or attack times for an instrument or note cannot be separated from frequency. Transients and tones are both energy waves, regardless if one is continuous and the other temporary. They are both expressed as particles of air moving a given amount within a given time. If the cymbal's attack time is 1/1,000th of a second than you are looking at an initial frequency or tone of 1,000hz, easily expressed in a digital format. You cannot separate those vibrations per second for a wave (its frequency) from the time it takes for the wave to rise and fall - you're essentially talking about the same number there. Attack times and frequencies are inseparable. There is no instrument that can have a 1/1000th second attack time, but then a tone of 100hz. 
 
If you are complaining about the difference between square and sine waves at high frequencies, and the audibility of aliasing, or the ability for sampling rates to catch secondary harmonics in a rising tone, I think you'd find this video educational:
 

 
Oct 10, 2014 at 2:48 AM Post #19 of 29
People keep moaning that digital audio doesn't represent "reality," while forgetting that neither does analog audio represent "reality." 
 
An analog microphone only captures, at best, a one dimensional representation of reality using a variable voltage.  
 
If anyone wants to see for themselves how pathetic this analog capture is, listen to any recoding of "Linus and Lucy" and then go to a piano bar, tip the player, request "Linus and Lucy" and then stand next to the piano while it is being played.
 
Digital recording is not a description of that piano being played, it is a description of the signal that the analog microphone captured.
 
People complain that digital audio does not have an infinitely fast rise time, while forgetting that neither does analog audio.  That fancy microphone recording your analog music still takes an appreciable amount of time to rise and fall, depending on the frequency it is recording.  Indeed, that rise and fall time is inherent in the frequency it is recording.  Further, neither does that recording medium, either magnetic tape or vinyl disc, have an infinitely fast rise time.  In both cases, the rise time, as best as it can be approximated, will conform to the waveform being recorded and to nothing else.
 
People complain about the distortions of digital audio without realizing that the distortions of analog audio are far higher.  Cassette tapes had a dynamic range of 6 to 7 bits.  LPs had a dynamic range of about 8 to 9 bits.   15 inch per second tapes had perhaps 11 to 12 bits. 
 
Digital isn't perfect.  But digital is far better than what came before.  That is why today digital is the medium of choice and everything else is an afterthought.
 
If we truly want to make things better, let us forget all this bickering about playback and instead focus on how the original music is recorded. 
 
Oct 10, 2014 at 3:42 AM Post #20 of 29
   
Digital isn't perfect.  But digital is far better than what came before.  That is why today digital is the medium of choice and everything else is an afterthought.
 
If we truly want to make things better, let us forget all this bickering about playback and instead focus on how the original music is recorded. 

 
+1
 
The irony though, is that some of the best new recordings available - made by artists and engineers who specifically record and master for direct music download, and do it well, make their music available in hi-res PCM or DSD. Listeners consequently tend to attribute as much of the perceived quality to the resolution/file format rather than their efforts in recording and mastering.
 
Oct 10, 2014 at 4:06 AM Post #21 of 29
The problem with Hi-Res formats is that they will all be salted with unreasonable DRM restrictions.
 
I think an extension of RedBook to 20/48kHz would likely be enough to make everyone happy, but it will never happen because of what the copyright holders learned with standard Redbook: unlimited, unlicensed copying of everything up to and including that standard.  Nuts to you if you already bought the music.  You want it in a different format?  Buy it again!  Why?   Because we said so!  If you don't like that, our buddies in Congress will let us confiscate your house if you download twelve of our songs!  That's not cruel and unusual punishment!  That's what we paid good money buying Congress for, and for buying off your Federal Courts!   Our only complaint is that we can't charge a royalty when a song gets stuck in your head!
 
No, rest assured, the "rights" holders will do everything they can to make sure that anything beyond Redbook doesn't succeed due to the massive royalties they will want to extract.
 
Don't weep though, Redbook is still a lot of fun and will likely continue to be so for the foreseeable future!
 
Oct 10, 2014 at 9:11 AM Post #22 of 29
  The problem with Hi-Res formats is that they will all be salted with unreasonable DRM restrictions.
 
I think an extension of RedBook to 20/48kHz would likely be enough to make everyone happy, but it will never happen because of what the copyright holders learned with standard Redbook: unlimited, unlicensed copying of everything up to and including that standard.  Nuts to you if you already bought the music.  You want it in a different format?  Buy it again!  Why?   Because we said so!  If you don't like that, our buddies in Congress will let us confiscate your house if you download twelve of our songs!  That's not cruel and unusual punishment!  That's what we paid good money buying Congress for, and for buying off your Federal Courts!   Our only complaint is that we can't charge a royalty when a song gets stuck in your head!
 
No, rest assured, the "rights" holders will do everything they can to make sure that anything beyond Redbook doesn't succeed due to the massive royalties they will want to extract.
 
Don't weep though, Redbook is still a lot of fun and will likely continue to be so for the foreseeable future!

 
Yeah it's a nifty game being played: convince people that they need a format that delivers what 99.99% of them can't even hear, then control how they can use the music they obtain in said format.  I was quite glad when SACD releases converged to hybrid discs, as it let me keep control of my classical collection without losing access to potentially great recordings.
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 6:29 PM Post #23 of 29
   
Yeah it's a nifty game being played: convince people that they need a format that delivers what 99.99% of them can't even hear, then control how they can use the music they obtain in said format.  I was quite glad when SACD releases converged to hybrid discs, as it let me keep control of my classical collection without losing access to potentially great recordings.

Oh that's good point. I was un aware that the newer formats had DRM restrictions, though it makes sense. You've got an audio file that's now like 100mbs a song, slap in 2mbs of DRM and who's going to notice
 
that is ofc a completely un informed comment, but the idea I'm commenting on I believe is spot on, much of our software now is distributed digitally, which saves money since you don't need to use physical media, but it also allows the companies behind the software to have more control over it's distribution, whos to say the music industry isn't going to start doing the same thing, 
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 7:13 PM Post #24 of 29
SACDs can be ripped with a PS3.
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 7:18 PM Post #25 of 29
  SACDs can be ripped with a PS3.

another fine point, any restricitions are only a little speed bump to the most serious of Digital Archivers 
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 10:59 PM Post #26 of 29
 
  SACDs can be ripped with a PS3.

another fine point, any restricitions are only a little speed bump to the most serious of Digital Archivers 


For several years, not knowing much about computers I was downloading MP3 torrents of albums I owned as CD because I couldn't get to rip a lot of them for my DAPs...
how fail is it when you end up using illegal means to listen to your own album? and now they're crying that internet is killing them. well yeah! behave like a jerk, it will come bite you in the ... 
I wonder if I could have at the time, in a messed up way, ended up being prosecuted for illegal download? that would have been ironic for sure.
DRMs will never really stop the clever dudes, but it makes it harder for those who paid for the real product. it makes me wanna through laser cats at the guys deciding to put DRMs in things.
although, SACD being a super mini niche market, and the files being heavy as hell, even without DRMs that wouldn't change a thing.
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 11:08 PM Post #27 of 29
 
For several years, not knowing much about computers I was downloading MP3 torrents of albums I owned as CD because I couldn't get to rip a lot of them for my DAPs...
how fail is it when you end up using illegal means to listen to your own album? and now they're crying that internet is killing them. well yeah! behave like a jerk, it will come bite you in the ... 
I wonder if I could have at the time, in a messed up way, ended up being prosecuted for illegal download? that would have been ironic for sure.
DRMs will never really stop the clever dudes, but it makes it harder for those who paid for the real product. it makes me wanna through laser cats at the guys deciding to put DRMs in things.
although, SACD being a super mini niche market, and the files being heavy as hell, even without DRMs that wouldn't change a thing.

I mostly refering to Apple, their files are pretty whorey in that if you buy an album from Apple it's a little cumbersome to play on other devices or format into other formats. It can be done but it's such a pain. At least with SACD  there's multiple Hard Ware vendors, not like one company is manufactoring all the SACD players
 
Oct 13, 2014 at 11:33 PM Post #28 of 29
Apple's AAC is much more supported than SACD and DSD. And it sounds exactly the same too.
 
Oct 14, 2014 at 1:40 PM Post #29 of 29

  SACDs can be ripped with a PS3.

 
True, but only on older models whose firmware hasn't been upgraded, because of course why would Sony allow such a feature to persist‽  Besides, the extra suite of stuff necessary to play native DSD on a computer would only be worth it, for me, if I could hear any tangible difference between DSD and 44.1/16 from the same master (multi-channel mixes notwithstanding), and honestly I can't (these old ears are good only up to about 16kHz).  Anyway, my point wasn't so much that DSD can't be "gotted" onto a computer, but more that hybrid discs spared me having to make my own 44.1/16 downmixes of what would otherwise have been DSD-only content.
 

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