[Ultimate Audio]

for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

 

[power]

It's not missing if you eq your source

 

[Hal X]

HD800's are not lacking sub bass at all, they have plenty compared to mids... they just have two annoying peaks at 7Khz and 14khz

 

[tinyman392]

  for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

The issue is that the headphone does deliver sub-bass and all frequencies in equilibrium.  Though it does take quite a bit to drive the HD800 properly.  This usually falls under two things...  The first is the actual response of the headphones.  The second is the response of the audio you're feeding it.  One of the major reasons why a pair of neutral phones sound thin and lacking bass is that the recording itself is thin and lacking in bass.  This is actually why lots of audiophiles tend to prefer a sound with a slight warm tint on the sound to sort of compensate for this.  
 
As for why does a bass heavy phone normally referred to not audiophile quality...  The answer is that it isn't the case, there are some legit bass-head phones that lots of audiophiles enjoy.  But in order to do this, you still have to control the bass in a way where it doesn't impact the mids or highs.  

 

[power]

You can not eq a speaker not capable of bass, such as a typical book shelf actually many many floor standers do not play below 30hz wich is where a true sub usually biggins it's reach problem is there is no full range drivers like headphones,able to play 20hz to 20khz. If there where there wood be different tunnings different percentages of the full spectrum some more some less. The hd 800 Can play subbass in Large quantity if you eq those fq. In proportion to the others. The fact that this is true is one reason they sound effortless with any program material

 

[justaname]

I think most top tier headphones are better for orchestra or classical type music hence the bass being a bit shy.

 

[nehcrow]

Well have a listen to the LCD-2/HE-500 and see if you change your mind about audiophile headphones having weak sub-bass

 

[Lorspeaker]

  for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

 
i share the same view... my 5.1 needs a sub. to find a REL on the cheap..tsk tsk.
 
An audiophile TOTL can should reproduce whats fed into it faithfully...
that involves the whole soundchain too, it is a black art. 
 
i have yet to find a D7k bassss on the hd800...sighh, i dislike/abhore EQing.. dunno y.  

 

[tinyman392]

   
i share the same view... my 5.1 needs a sub. to find a REL on the cheap..tsk tsk.
 
An audiophile TOTL can should reproduce whats fed into it faithfully...
that involves the whole soundchain too, it is a black art. 
 
i have yet to find a D7k bassss on the hd800...sighh, i dislike/abhore EQing.. dunno y.  

 
Actually, it is.  Something like HD800 will play the track exactly as it's fed.  It's the track that generally isn't faithful.  Dynamic range compression has done a lot to music, and even gone so far to really change what is a good speaker system as they have to pick up the slack to play these louder albums.  The opposite is also true though, if you feed a good album to something that compensates for compression in its own way (warmish, slightly bassy sound), the good album isn't played to its fullest potential as some things are glossed over by the sound system (be in speakers or headphones).  
 
What tracks are you feeding it?  Album and artist...  

 

[Lorspeaker]

interesting point about how the track isnt faithful.
hmmm...too long ago...sold tat baby, twice over

 

[zorin]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Audio /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
How come if a Headphone has deep and strong bass is not considered a 'audiofile headphone '
 
for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

A - Because "deep and strong bass" usually means that headphones are not balanced; in other words the three frequency bands, the bass, the middle frequencies and the treble are not in line in volume. If the bass is 'out of whack' and floods the middle frequencies, that means if it interferes with the vocals or with the sound of instruments then headphones with this kind of sound signature do not have natural balanced sound and thus they are not 'audiophile headphones'.
B - Generally, headphones with a moderate bass boost, relative to the vocal and instrument range part of the frequency spectrum, up to 5-6 dB [deciBel], are still considered 'balanced' and regarded as 'audiophile' headphones. From my experience headphones like HD800 or T1 have decent enough bass end [T1 a bit better than HD800] but their bass could be stronger and they would still be of 'audiophile' grade.
C - Somewhat illogically some headphones with a relatively weak bass are still considered to be of 'audiophile' quality.
D - The major problem is that the electrodynamic headphones [at least 95% of all headphones sold] cannot equally present, in the same volume, all three frequency bands; the driver and its diaphragm of the electrodynamics cannot produce clean, and of the same power, electroacoustic waves uniformly from down in the bass up through the middle frequencies and into the treble. Compromises have to be made, something has to give. They are of three kinds which makes for three sound designs : 
1 - Rolled off [weak] bass and good 'mids' and decent treble
2 - Rolled off treble and good 'mids' and good bass
3 - Good bass and decent treble and 'rolled off' [recessed] part of the middle frequencies, which means that vocals sound fainter than they should - unbearable when one listens to vocal oriented music. 
But, at the very, and expensive, top of the electrodynamic headphones pyramid one can find a very few 'Top of the Line' cans that manage to play all three frequency bands pretty evenly. Three of them are currently in production.
E - What is one to do when deciding to buy good headphones ? My view and advice is to buy headphones that present middle frequencies and treble correctly, the middle frequencies are the most important because that's where the music lies. The bass can be taken care of by simply using the bass knob on an amplifier, or doing bass 'EQing' on portable player. It is relatively easy to boost bass but it is more difficult to create good treble with a treble knob. The most importantly, it is impossible to 'boost' middle frequencies, they spread too wide.
 
F - Many people buy 'planar magnetic' headphones, which use different technology to produce sound, because these headphones present more prominent bass. The big caveat is that there are no perfect headphones and the planar magnetics have their own problems, specific to the technology used. They have more bass but they generally suffer from treble anemia. The second problem is the sound produced by the planar magnetics is less dynamic than the sound produced by the electrodynamic headphones, the bass of planars has more quantity and better extension to sub-bass but it does not have enough 'thump' [impact] compared to bass of the electrodynamics. My view is that the top few of the electrodynamics, three in production and two out of production, present the best sound signatures when one wants to hear the correct compromise between the bass quality and the balanced presentation of frequency bands. When you turn the bass knob when listening to electrodynamic headphones, you get enough bass volume and bass thump; with the planar magnetics the bass knob will not make bass more impactful.
 
I left out the electro-static headphones, they are a different world.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Audio /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 

How come if a Headphone has deep and strong bass is not considered a 'audiofile headphone '

for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

 

I. Deep bass isn't actually missing

 

Audiophile headphones actually have deep bass - they have enough response down low for that. Comparing an audiophile system to a surround system without a sub is more applicable to those who use only tiny monitors (smaller than 5in), but there's a reason why some can compromise with 6in single midwoofer monitors with no subwoofer: not all recordings have a lot of response below 50hz anyway, and  the bass one can feel as a kick to the chest (best on classic rock, Deftones, STP, etc) is around 70hz to the 100hz - the key is to have enough response below that so the bass drum is properly reinforced tonally by the lowest frequencies. It still doesn't go as deep as 20hz, although headphones have that.It's just that the output is around or in the ears, so there's no tingling of the hairs on one's arm when the whole string and brass sections kick in.

 

 

II. High fidelity means neutral response

 

What audiophile systems don't have is "strong" bass, or what many perceive should be "strong" as presented. A neutral system with a flat response will reproduce bass as the recording intended not just in quantity and quality but also in terms of imaging. I've had my share of systems people say sounds great, but I can hear the bass drum coming from around the same point on the Z-Axis as the vocals, even with the drums around two feet behind them. Unless your drummer has really long legs, I don't know how that's possible.

 

And then there' car audio. Some people before listened to my car and complained that the bass was a bit weak - I tuned it so the front speakers' high pass was on 70hz, 12dB/octave, while the bass low pass was on 50hz, 12dB/octave. That already has some overlap to it that should measure as having some boost at around 60hz, but the way I tuned it along with time alignment* I can hear the bass drum with enough of a "kick" to it from the front along with detailed bass guitar notes that don't sound like a mudslide that blended into each other. By the time someone else was done "tuning" my car, double-pedal bass drums were coming from between the front seats, hard bass drum hits (see examples above) were clearly coming from the rear (Hey I didn't know bands put the bass drum over there...what's that? Reed Richards plays drums for AC/DC?! WOW! How much did Stan Lee get for that character cameo?), and bass guitars sounded like a tidal wave of molasses spilling out from a silo.

 

In short, if the recording has it, then it will be there if the response is reasonably neutral and goes deep enough. If it sounds weak, then the primary issue can be the noise floor, not the headphone's (or even the speaker's, in-room) response by itself.

 

*processor delays all nearer tweeters and midrange with custom microsecond delays in sending a signal to them to sync with each other and the subwoofer, all sound arriving at my ears at the same time like they were all in front
 

 

III. Perception may not always be in line with reality/Hi-Fi/what the recording actually has

 

The problem is that what people perceive and expect out of the playback is not the same as what the recording was intended for, assuming it was a proper recording to begin with.* No headphone is perfectly flat, but if you get a neutral headphone to play for example the 1812 Overture, you still get thundering bass because the recording had it. Using a headphone with a lot of bass to get that to be felt has one major issue that is being ignored: speakers and headphones work differently. If you use a speaker and headphone with similar if not identical tone curves (through EQ) that are generally more on the "neutral" side will reproduce bass. The speaker, barring noise isolation, can easily be perceived to have more bass, all because  the bass can be felt by the whole body, since the sound is all over the room. The headphone only blows out the sound towards that area around the ears,  so it won't exactly have bass tingling the hairs on one's arm. The problem with EQ-ing bass to mimic in-room bass presentation of a speaker system is that it can cause other issues with the response - you "feel" the bass in your jaw, but the tonal balance can be affected, and possibly the imaging as well.

 

Even when one compares for example EDM, there's the problem of perception/usual way of listening to it vs how the music was mastered. The DJ mastering on a set of monitors with a subwoofer is probably how he likes it in-room; but that won't stop him from using several dozen subwoofers in-club, especially if the club needs its ecstasy-popping audience (more if they are the ones who sell the X) to enjoy how the bass feels on their skin once the pills do their magic. Of course, at some point the bass isn't enough, so they start rubbing against random strangers. If your reference is the in-club sound, then of course you will demand that you also feel the bass all the time, even if you don't pop the same pills (at home, or even in the club).
 

*Nightwish's Angels Fall First has crappy percussion recording for example - try the original album and the remastered version (in the box set) and listen for the drums, particularly the toms and kick drum

 

[nephilim32]

for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

What more LFE bass response??
Gotcha covered. I want this myself. It's awesome. http://thesubpac.com/order/subpac-s1/



Here is your bass answer. Enjoy.

 

[ubs28]

  for me is a non sense , is like having a dolby 5.1 surround home theather without the subwoofer , so i dont understand why a headphone like hd800 is considered an audiofile when  something is missing in  the sound ( 'sub bass' in this case) . If the bass is missing is OK a great phone but if the mids and highs is lacking , OH NO is garbage !!! For me a audiofile headphone must deliver ALL the sound freq flawless, what do u think ?? thanks.

 
The HD800 delivers all sound frequency, even more frequencies than 99,9% of the headphones due to it's excellent treble extension.  If you want more bass out of the HD800, remove a bit of treble and listen how much bass is coming out of the HD800 (removing a bit of treble is the best way to get some extra bass out of the HD800 in my opinion). Other headphones have poor treble which makes you think they have more bass. 
 
 
So you are saying that your consumer wallmart dolby 5.1 surround home theather is more audiophile than some $40.000+ reference speaker setups because yours have more bass? 

 

[justaname]

Maybe not more "audiophile" but probably way more fun and engaging.