Holo Audio Spring R2R DAC

[BlakeT]

EDIT: Holo/Kitsune resolved the situation, so post deleted.

 

[Delta9K]

Always better to assume positive intent.

 

[eee1111]

And the usb module we are talking about is NEW and far better than the one you are familiar with.

t. We have run out of enhanced usb modules and they have been superseded by the new usb module processing we created to replace it. Far better performing module with better support for high resolution content. Dsd1024 and pcm1.536mhz is achievable on most any platform now, as before it was only available with intel chipsets and some other chipsets but amd and many other chipsets had issues where dsd512 was maximum possible. Or pcm 768k.
The new usb module is more of a perfect match for the dac too. Better measurements and improved sound quality. And no extra charge this this module. However we are to be delaying orders getting the upgrade as we are a small waiting for pie shipment of the completed boards. Should be about a week.It’s superseding the original enhanced usb module found in kte may, L2 May and kte spring3

Some interesting wording in there

and the site has no updates about a new USB

they’re essentially not even advertising this upgraded usb

Pretty awful on their part

 

[KenMan85]

I really doubt that the new module it'll make any difference that's audible anyways the current one is already beyond the threshold of human hearing I think Tim was just up telling me to keep me calm with how long my order was taking

 

[axsnyder]

Some interesting wording in there

and the site has no updates about a new USB

they’re essentially not even advertising this upgraded usb

Pretty awful on their part

They strike me more as engineers than marketers. I'd rather buy a good product than feel good about something mediocre.

 

[Delta9K]

EDIT: PLEASE NOTE
I spoke with Tim (Kitsune/HoloAudio USA) directly over the phone. I will say that from our conversation, it's quite apparent that there has been misinterpretation and too much of reading between the lines of information posted on the Spring3 KTE and new USB modules that sadly, myself may have helped to propagate. During our 40 minute conversation it was clear that that both Tim and Jeff care very much about audio, and even more about their products and customers. I am not going to elaborate on the details because I do not want to risk misquoting, or posting text that could be taken out of context to further fuel unnecessary debate.

 

[KenMan85]

It is not just about sound quality - The DAC sounds fantastic. This issue of concern is the compatibility with AMD and being able to get beyond 768 and DSD 512. This is not fixed in any firmware if you are on AMD. Therefore, a new module that supports both Intel and AMD is much desired for myself, at least. Considering one reason I bought this DAC was to explore up sampling and DSD at higher rates.

"better support for high resolution content. Dsd1024 and pcm1.536mhz is achievable on most any platform now, as before it was only available with intel chipsets and some other chipsets but amd and many other chipsets had issues where dsd512 was maximum possible. Or pcm 768k"

I am bound by the limits above in bold ATM, so the statement in quotes, does have an impact.

Fair point D9

 

[BlakeT]

I really doubt that the new module it'll make any difference that's audible anyways the current one is already beyond the threshold of human hearing I think Tim was just up telling me to keep me calm with how long my order was taking

EDIT: Subsequent to this post, Holo/Kitsune rolled out a usb module upgrade program, so post deleted.

 

[Adnan Firoze]

You may be right, but personally I am guessing the other way. If you are right, then that means Tim's comments about the new usb module are just pure marketing fluff (reposting Tim's email below with some points of emphasis). I'll give Tim the benefit of doubt and assume what he wrote in his email to you is true and the new usb module will have noticeable sonic improvements and not just better measurements.

DAC manufacturers have been telling us for years USB issues have been solved, but that is not the case. Those of us that have bought, tried, sold numerous usb DAC's over the years can attest to that. Schiit, Holo and many other DAC manufacturers are constantly trying to improve USB.

The fact that Holo has implemented a new usb solution to replace Titanis 2.0 tells you that Holo themselves didn't think Titanis 2.0 was so good that further sonic improvements could not be obtained. And, whatever they call this new usb module, rest assured it too will be further refined in a new version in a few years, which is fine. Just don't release a product knowing that you will be upgrading it immediately, leaving early buyers behind.

With respect to the new usb module, I'd find it pretty much impossible to believe Holo did all of the R&D, parts sourcing and parts ordering all after the first units shipped. Be transparent, tell your customers what is happening and allow them to make a choice between getting the DAC sooner with the soon to be replaced usb module, or wait for the new one.

Instead, we get... Place your preorders now. Once the pool of preorders have been filled, just sit back and cross your fingers. You will all pay the same price but, some of you will get the better version, others won't be so lucky, but just roll the dice and play!

"We have run out of enhanced usb modules and they have been superseded by the new usb module processing we created to replace it. Far better performing module with better support for high resolution content. Dsd1024 and pcm1.536mhz is achievable on most any platform now, as before it was only available with intel chipsets and some other chipsets but amd and many other chipsets had issues where dsd512 was maximum possible. Or pcm 768k.
The new usb module is more of a perfect match for the dac too. Better measurements and improved sound quality. And no extra charge this this module. However we are to be delaying orders getting the upgrade as we are a small waiting for pie shipment of the completed boards. Should be about a week.It’s superseding the original enhanced usb module found in kte may, L2 May and kte spring3."

These are valid points but this also reminds me of a precedent. The iBasso DX300 DAP initially shipped with their Amp 11 mk1. Then they ran out of the components to make those amp modules. They started selling with the Amp11 mk2 and there had been speculations about how they were doing it just because they ran out of the "good stuff" and putting in subpar stuff - which clearly was not the case since I bought the Amp11 mk2 (the updated version). Prior to buying I didn't even know which one I was getting. There were talks of larger/smaller soundstage on both modules in the respective thread on headfi. In hindsight, no one cares anymore because they were so similar. I will say this - established companies know better to leave customers behind. Having this discourse with customers at least is a good sign and I respect that. However, having ordered on Aug 1, keep forgetting if I really ordered it or not because of the wait. haha.

 

[eee1111]

You may be right, but personally I am guessing the other way. If you are right, then that means Tim's comments about the new usb module are just pure marketing fluff (reposting Tim's email below with some points of emphasis). I'll give Tim the benefit of doubt and assume what he wrote in his email to you is true and the new usb module will have noticeable sonic improvements and not just better measurements.

DAC manufacturers have been telling us for years USB issues have been solved, but that is not the case. Those of us that have bought, tried, sold numerous usb DAC's over the years can attest to that. Schiit, Holo and many other DAC manufacturers are constantly trying to improve USB.

The fact that Holo has implemented a new usb solution to replace Titanis 2.0 tells you that Holo themselves didn't think Titanis 2.0 was so good that further sonic improvements could not be obtained. And, whatever they call this new usb module, rest assured it too will be further improved in a new version in a few years, which is fine. Just don't release a product knowing that you will be upgrading it immediately, leaving early buyers behind.

With respect to the new usb module, I'd find it pretty much impossible to believe Holo did all of the R&D, parts sourcing and parts ordering all after the first units shipped (i.e. less than 30 days to accomplish all this). Be transparent, tell your customers what is happening and allow them to make a choice between getting the DAC more quickly with the soon to be replaced usb module, or, wait for the new one.

Instead, we get... Place your preorders now. Once the pool of preorders have been filled, just sit back and cross your fingers. You will all pay the same price but some of you will get the better version, while others won't be so lucky, but just roll the dice and play!

"We have run out of enhanced usb modules and they have been superseded by the new usb module processing we created to replace it. Far better performing module with better support for high resolution content. Dsd1024 and pcm1.536mhz is achievable on most any platform now, as before it was only available with intel chipsets and some other chipsets but amd and many other chipsets had issues where dsd512 was maximum possible. Or pcm 768k.
The new usb module is more of a perfect match for the dac too. Better measurements and improved sound quality. And no extra charge this this module. However we are to be delaying orders getting the upgrade as we are a small waiting for pie shipment of the completed boards. Should be about a week.It’s superseding the original enhanced usb module found in kte may, L2 May and kte spring3."

Sounds like a used car salesman
It really is odd they’re handling it like this

and there is nothing on the website so that makes me think they’re unloading what is left of the usb parts in their possession
All around odd. Those who bought the spring ended up finding out that they were getting worse parts or up selling due to resources. It will be funny to see the description of the spring change on the store

 

[GoldenSound]

Yes, I think its odd too that there are not more folks reporting in with good or bad impressions. Also, there was at least one popular reviewer who had a unit in before launch and was going to drop a review soon after - nothing but crickets from there too, it's weird.
I know I'm being slow to get some more in-depth impressions posted but, I replaced several components in the source chain pretty much back-to-back, and now have too many "new" things to sort out before being able to present thoughts other than the highly subjective with no detail - "Best DAC I have owned so far"...

Spoiler: I do think it's the best DAC I have owned so far but it is not the perfect DAC nor my last, but it is here to stay for a while and has top positioning in my primary setup.

If you're meaning me then the delayed review is unfortunately just cause RL has gotten in the way a fair bit the last few weeks. Vaccine knocked me out for a few days, heatwave made filming basically impossible, and have had to spend time on actual work stuff (the reviews are not my job, in fact I make 0 personal income from them, it's just my hobby so unfortunately that does mean that I can't pump out videos as fast as some others).
First APx555 video with a bit of a talk about objectivism vs subjectivism is up on patreon though, and will be on youtube in a few days.

The spring 3 review will be up as soon as possible, and will be very positive. It's a truly spectacular product and for the money it's absolutely killer.

In terms of the USB module stuff, this unit has the same module as my may, I've not tried the new one, though from what I understand it's not really meant to be a SQ upgrade, it's just meant to get around the 1.536mhz on AMD limitation. So if you have an intel PC, or don't use HQPlayer, then it won't really bring you any benefit anyway.
Personally I use a small fanless intel mini-PC that I got on amazon for ~£150 as my source which means 1.536mhz works flawlessly (mele mini PC with HQP OS for those wondering, and the ifi iGalvanic also can go inbetween if desired).
I understand some people's frustration at not having the newer module, but honestly, product revisions, tweaks, upgrades etc happen all the time with just about any brand. Hell Audeze released the new LCD-X revision about a week after my review went up. Aryas got a revision shortly after I bought them, the AHB2 has had some firmware tweaks to allow things like turning off the eco-shutoff which mine does not have.
When you buy a product, you're buying the product described. Just cause something changes or even if a v2 of whatever you bought comes out the next week, it doesn't suddenly make your product any different/worse than it was when you bought it.

It is not economical in any way for a manufacturer to give all owners a replacement or upgrade when a minor change is made. If this sort of service were expected, the base cost of the item would need to be vastly higher to cover the costs of doing this in advance. There is no free lunch and it needs to be paid for somehow.
This is a workaround for an issue that affects only HQPlayer users with AMD pcs. They haven't released a new dac...

(Also I'm pretty sure you can email them and purchase the upgrade if you have a current KTE. And for those saying that it should be free....that module isn't free to make. The only other option they'd have would be not to offer any new module at all which would be silly.
It'd be a bit odd to say that manufacturers shouldn't ever fix issues or make upgrades to their products)

 

[KenMan85]

If you're meaning me then the delayed review is unfortunately just cause RL has gotten in the way a fair bit the last few weeks. Vaccine knocked me out for a few days, heatwave made filming basically impossible, and have had to spend time on actual work stuff (the reviews are not my job, in fact I make 0 personal income from them, it's just my hobby so unfortunately that does mean that I can't pump out videos as fast as some others)

Though the review will be up as soon as possible, and will be very positive. It's a truly spectacular product.

In terms of the USB module stuff, this unit has the same module as my may, I've not tried the new one, though from what I understand it's not really meant to be a SQ upgrade, it's just meant to get around the 1.536mhz on AMD limitation. So if you have an intel PC then it won't really bring you any benefit anyway.
Personally I use a small fanless intel mini-PC that I got on amazon for ~£150 as my source which means 1.536mhz works flawlessly (mele mini PC with HQP OS for those wondering, and the ifi iGalvanic also can go inbetween if desired).
I understand some people's frustration at not having the newer module, but honestly, product revisions, tweaks, upgrades etc happen all the time with just about any brand. Hell Audeze released the new LCD-X revision about a week after my review went up. Aryas got a revision shortly after I bought them, the AHB2 has had some firmware tweaks to allow things like turning off the eco-shutoff which mine does not have.
When you buy a product, you're buying the product described. Just cause something changes or even if a v2 of whatever you bought comes out the next week, it doesn't suddenly make your product any different/worse than it was when you bought it.

It is not economical in any way for a manufacturer to give all owners a replacement or upgrade when a minor change is made. If this sort of service were expected, the base cost of the item would need to be vastly higher to cover the costs of doing this in advance. There is no free lunch and it needs to be paid for somehow.
This is a workaround for an issue that affects only HQPlayer users with AMD pcs. They haven't released a new dac...

(Also I'm pretty sure you can email them and purchase the upgrade if you have a current KTE. And for those saying that it should be free....that module isn't free to make. The only other option they'd have would be not to offer any new module at all which would be silly.
It'd be a bit odd to say that manufacturers shouldn't ever fix issues or make upgrades to their products)

Glad you're up on your feet. I look forward to to your tear down n review. Do you plan a vs may section. I figure you're getting 70 percent of May 1?

 

[GoldenSound]

Glad you're up on your feet. I look forward to to your tear down n review. Do you plan a vs may section. I figure you're getting 70 percent of May 1?

Yeah there will be some comparisons to May.
Basically the performance you get from spring 3 is similar to May, but there is a noticeable difference.
May is definitely the better DAC, but it's not worlds apart or anything. There are some sound signature differences though which I'll go into in the video.

If the May L2 fits in your budget, you should go for that. But at just over 2k, the spring 3 is crazy good value and leaves stuff like the qutest, ares 2, x26 pro in the dust.


It's nice cause the pricing is such that the May makes sense if you can stretch to it, but the spring 3 is amazing for the money. You really can't go wrong with either.
Oh...and having a proper integrated preamp is absolutely fantastic

 

[KenMan85]

Yeah there will be some comparisons to May.
Basically the performance you get from spring 3 is similar to May, but there is a noticeable difference.
May is definitely the better DAC, but it's not worlds apart or anything. There are some sound signature differences though which I'll go into in the video.

If the May L2 fits in your budget, you should go for that. But at just over 2k, the spring 3 is crazy good value and leaves stuff like the qutest, ares 2, x26 pro in the dust.


It's nice cause the pricing is such that the May makes sense if you can stretch to it, but the spring 3 is amazing for the money. You really can't go wrong with either.
Oh...and having a proper integrated preamp is absolutely fantastic

Thanks for the little preview I really appreciate your review style it seems like you have a mix of objective and subjective and I can appreciate that sound especially in music is definitely a bit of both

 

[GoldenSound]

Thanks for the little preview I really appreciate your review style it seems like you have a mix of objective and subjective and I can appreciate that sound especially in music is definitely a bit of both

Absolutely , and I discuss objective vs subjective in some length in the next video