[Zenja]

Basically, all that quote says is that headphones don't have glue and rubber surrounds to break in. That's obvious

 

[rodbac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alu As I quoted before (http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showp...&postcount=77), and have been completely ignored.

I meant to give you credit for tracking that clarification down, and in fact your post was where I copied it from.

Quote:

Basically, all that quote says is that headphones don't have glue and rubber surrounds to break in. That's obvious

Which is kind of key, don't you think, since that's the rationale behind speaker break-in?

[edit]

You guys are free to debate this without me and to holler about how wrong I am now- I'm out for the weekend...

 

[tomb]

From Headroom:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Headroom on AKG K601 Our experience with the K601 is that it requires a good chunk of burn-in time to fully relax and sound its best, so please assume a minimum of about a hundred hours of playtime before the full pleasure of these cans is realized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headroom on AKG K701 Our experience with the K701 is that it requires a good chunk of burn-in time to fully relax and sound its best, so please assume AT LEAST a hundred hours of playtime before the full pleasure of these cans is realized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Headroom on Beyer DT880 Please remember that about 100+ listening hours are required for the DT880 to fully burn-in, 'relax' and sound its very best.

From Todd the Vinyl Junkie:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd on the AKG K701 The K701 is a reference headphone ... After about 200 hours of breakin, these cans really shine.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikepedia on AKG K701 Their newly designed K-601 headphones employ a two-layer diaphragm for an improved response in both high and low sonic ranges, while their top-end K701 is the first headphone in the world to use flat-wire voice coil technology, resulting in greater extension and "sparkle." This two-layer diaphragm also means that headphone break-in will require at least 300 hours of use, and in some cases more before they achieve their ideal sound.

From Helsinki University of Technology,
Department of Electrical and Communication Engineering,
"Headphone Listening Test Methods":
Quote:

Originally Posted by Headphone Listening Test Methods New devices require some amount of burn-in before the components are “settled down”. This time is usually between 24 and 48 hours.

From Ultrasone USA,
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ultrasone USA Site Admin Burning in the headphones will improve the sound, maybe not drastically, but the sound will even out and the headphones will start to sound like the really do. Best thing to do is just put on some music and let it play for at least 8 hours. As far as a good CD to showcase the S-Logic, the sample cd that came with your headphone is great. Its mostly binaural recording so it really shows of the wider sound field. Also classical, jazz and well recorded rock cds would be good.

Finally, a review on a piece of completely static, solid-state equipment - Ray Samuels' Hornet headphone amp:
Quote:

Originally Posted by sixmoons.com audio reviews The unit needed a lot of burn-in time. Samuels warned that at least 300 hours would be needed. While I do believe in burn-in, 300 hours for a mere portable left me skeptical. At first, the soundstage was compressed and narrow. There was a forward and aggressive edginess to the sound. My 50 hours of workout then clearly weren't enough. During this time, Ray let me borrow his own Hornet that had 300 hours on it. I was startled by the difference. Gone was the grain and edginess, the soundstage blossomed outwards and bass was noticeably tighter and more linear. The unit still had a bit of forwardness but nowhere near as much as mine - plus there was increased depth behind the soloist. Ray explained that a big part of this burn-in requirement is due to the huge filter capacitor's dielectric. After clocking 350 hours on my baby, I was happy with what I heard by way of comparison to Ray's loaner and returned the latter.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Why the hll is it so hard for many to just accept the fact that human hearing is extremly dependent on ones brain, making it absolutely impossible to judge on subtle (if any) sound alterations like burn-in, cables, and stuff? Man, your brain´s a *****ing freaky equalizer, with abilities we don´t even know about. And disconnecting your ears from your brain- well, not a good idea.

If theres a phenomenon, that certain things make a serious change in sound signature, but can not be measured, how can someone take his own ears as a proof- knowing, theres thousands of people thinking that ibuds sound good, and never miss a thing? That many people with hearing damage don´t recognise this for a very long time? Then, if you see, that 99% of al burn-in related alterations are positive- bright phones get smoother, warmer phones become more transparent- what does this tell you?

This penomenons are so interesting, but why are there so few attempts to really get behind it?

When i heard about the national meet, i was very exited hoping someone would ask the representants of the big HP-Producers some questions regarding this. I´m pretty sure, if burn in is real they will know. It would be absolutely impossible to develop a HP without knowing if its "real".
So, i´m very excited about the questions Imhilan asked the manufacturers.
My prediction: except Grado, they will not state burn in as real.
Exciting stuff, though.

 

[spinali]

I had offered the above Audioholics post on my Headphone Break-In blog to explore one of several explanations for the "break-in" phenomenon. People should be able to read all sides of the argument, IMO, whether I agree or disagree.

This reference is interesting but not even close to definitive. Its author is careful to be equivocal on certain key points. He admits the possibility of transducer warm-up and temporary changes, and concludes...

Quote:

I believe it to be improbable that the small change that may occur temporarily due to the latter explanation would be audible.

...without offering documentation or proof.

As mentioned in my blog, people offering alternate explanations to headphone break-in have been less than forward in providing numbers to support their alternative theories.

Only the Audax data - which strongly supports burn-in in speaker transducers - offers anything close to satisfactory data. To some, its application to headphones is uncertain at this point.

 

[kramer5150]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun Why the hll is it so hard for many to just accept the fact that human hearing is extremly dependent on ones brain, making it absolutely impossible to judge on subtle (if any) sound alterations like burn-in, cables, and stuff? Man, your brain´s a *****ing freaky equalizer, with abilities we don´t even know about. And disconnecting your ears from your brain- well, not a good idea. If theres a phenomenon, that certain things make a serious change in sound signature, but can not be measured, how can someone take his own ears as a proof- knowing, theres thousands of people thinking that ibuds sound good, and never miss a thing? That many people with hearing damage don´t recognise this for a very long time? Then, if you see, that 99% of al burn-in related alterations are positive- bright phones get smoother, warmer phones become more transparent- what does this tell you? This penomenons are so interesting, but why are there so few attempts to really get behind it? When i heard about the national meet, i was very exited hoping someone would ask the representants of the big HP-Producers some questions regarding this. I´m pretty sure, if burn in is real they will know. It would be absolutely impossible to develop a HP without knowing if its "real". So, i´m very excited about the questions Imhilan asked the manufacturers. My prediction: except Grado, they will not state burn in as real. Exciting stuff, though.

I doubt any of them will come back and state that it "is real".... THERE IS NO STADARDIZED METHOD OF MEASUREMENT. Untill there is a MLSSA measurement system for headphones, or some way to quantify/measure the transient response of a headphone, we will never know.

Frequency response is only a small part of the picture. So, headroom graphs would only tell a small portion.

And these debates will continue infinitely.

Garrett

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

From Helsinki University of Technology, Department of Electrical and Communication Engineering, "Headphone Listening Test Methods": Quote: Originally Posted by Headphone Listening Test Methods New devices require some amount of burn-in before the components are “settled down”. This time is usually between 24 and 48 hours. From Ultrasone USA, Quote: Originally Posted by Ultrasone USA Site Admin Burning in the headphones will improve the sound, maybe not drastically, but the sound will even out and the headphones will start to sound like the really do. Best thing to do is just put on some music and let it play for at least 8 hours. As far as a good CD to showcase the S-Logic, the sample cd that came with your headphone is great. Its mostly binaural recording so it really shows of the wider sound field. Also classical, jazz and well recorded rock cds would be good.

Those are really interesting, i think.
Note the amounts of time assumed.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kramer5150 I doubt any of them will come back and state that it "is real".... THERE IS NO STADARDIZED METHOD OF MEASUREMENT. Untill there is a MLSSA measurement system for headphones, or some way to quantify/measure the transient response of a headphone, we will never know. Frequency response is only a small part of the picture. So, headroom graphs would only tell a small portion. And these debates will continue infinitely. Garrett

If you would design the sound signature, what would you refer to? The burned in, or the "stock" signature? They have to know. An AKG 701 has not a random sound signature. It´s carefully desined, and for designing you have to know how your materials behave. It´s basic engineering.

If you were a HP Manufacturer, would you do a testing of your phones before selling them, with neutral users/ consumers? Sure.

Which phone would you use for the testing? The new one or the burned in?

Edit: BTW, if burn in is real, what keeps the manufacturers from plugging the phones into a multiple HP-Amp prior to delivering? Costs near zero, and according to the stated oppinions, a massive improvement of the product resulting in less replacements from unsatisfied customers. Basic economics, no?

 

[spinali]

I'd been considering doing my own testing, but it's the kind of thing that requires funding, unfortunately.

I believe the the best data would be provided by doing a statistical analysis from listeners' responses. This would skirt the whole issue of taking tiny measurements.

I do believe, however, that the music/sound samples should be such to really push the headphones - various tracks with high treble, deep bass, or notable distortion and sibilance. Then a listener could swap between new and burned-in headphones and detect differences, if any. (I use the Registrators' "Savage" CD, which usually shows a night-and-day difference with pre/post break-in. Comparing undemanding tracks from the Police's "Outlandos d'Amour" isn't going to show much.)

This is presuming that, given the tightest experimental controls and design, the resulting data be acceptable to those who reject break-in. I kind of doubt it.

 

[Seijang]

I'm a headphone newbie compared to most people, but I'd like to relate my experience. I dont have any hard data, I am simply a college student who scrapped up enough cash to buy himself an amp and a pair of headphones.

Headphones : DT880 (old vers)

I came into headphone-listening a firm believer of mental burnin. This was due to my previous experienced with Shure E3C. My specific experience with that was it felt anemic and tinny at first, due to my use of Sony MDR-EX71SL and bad insertion of the E3C in my ear.

This takes place when I was a firm believer of mental burn-in and ambivalent about physical burn-in.
When I first received my DT880s, I gave them a couple minutes of listening - about 20 minutes. In the end I was pretty much set to send them back - sure the music sounded great but the highs really grated on me and the entire setup felt metallic. I had heard about the often purported burn-in by other head-fiers, so I actually set these phones down and had them play music for 5 days straight. I didn't pick them up once the entire time, mostly choosing to listen to my music from my speakers.

After five days I gave them another listen. I was *not* punched in the face by the difference, but it was startling. The metallic feel I remember wasn't there, and the highs were not grating, but smoother. I could love the new detail these headphones presented to me and not be bothered.

Although I am not a rabid convert into burninism, I have more of a tendency to believe there is a difference with extensive burn in. I simply listened to the headphones once, gave it 5 days (listening to my comp..so my ears were calibrated for that) and afterwards I personally noticed a difference. The difference was enough to make me choose whether I wanted to turn the headphones back in or keep them.

Either way, physical or mental burnin, there is definitely burn in somewhere =).

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Either way, physical or mental burnin, there is definitely burn in somewhere =).

This is it;

Knowing about mental burn in makes it absolutely impossible to make a statement about a possible physical burn in. As a single person, with a single headphone, theres no way you can tell.

 

[alfie]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun Knowing about mental burn in makes it absolutely impossible to make a statement about a possible physical burn in. As a single person, with a single headphone, theres no way you can tell.

Hummm as people say how their cans changed others can say how theirs didn't. You can also listen to the same model with different burn in from a friend. That has nothing to do with scientific facts, but exactly as the 50, 70, 100, 150, 500 hours of burning suggested or the usual answer "Di you burn it?" to "this headphone sucks at my ears".

 

[swmtnbiker]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb From Headroom: From Todd the Vinyl Junkie: From Wikipedia: From Helsinki University of Technology, Department of Electrical and Communication Engineering, "Headphone Listening Test Methods": From Ultrasone USA, Finally, a review on a piece of completely static, solid-state equipment - Ray Samuels' Hornet headphone amp:

Again, nothing but anecdotal evidence. There isn't a single bit of hard data here, just listener impressions.

 

[Zoobies]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seijang I'm a headphone newbie compared to most people, but I'd like to relate my experience. I dont have any hard data, I am simply a college student who scrapped up enough cash to buy himself an amp and a pair of headphones. Headphones : DT880 (old vers) I came into headphone-listening a firm believer of mental burnin. This was due to my previous experienced with Shure E3C. My specific experience with that was it felt anemic and tinny at first, due to my use of Sony MDR-EX71SL and bad insertion of the E3C in my ear. This takes place when I was a firm believer of mental burn-in and ambivalent about physical burn-in. When I first received my DT880s, I gave them a couple minutes of listening - about 20 minutes. In the end I was pretty much set to send them back - sure the music sounded great but the highs really grated on me and the entire setup felt metallic. I had heard about the often purported burn-in by other head-fiers, so I actually set these phones down and had them play music for 5 days straight. I didn't pick them up once the entire time, mostly choosing to listen to my music from my speakers. After five days I gave them another listen. I was *not* punched in the face by the difference, but it was startling. The metallic feel I remember wasn't there, and the highs were not grating, but smoother. I could love the new detail these headphones presented to me and not be bothered. Although I am not a rabid convert into burninism, I have more of a tendency to believe there is a difference with extensive burn in. I simply listened to the headphones once, gave it 5 days (listening to my comp..so my ears were calibrated for that) and afterwards I personally noticed a difference. The difference was enough to make me choose whether I wanted to turn the headphones back in or keep them. Either way, physical or mental burnin, there is definitely burn in somewhere =).

The faulty assumption you've made is assuming the brain does not continue to adapt in the interval between initial stimulus and re-exposure.

 

[Vul Kuolun]

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfie Hummm as people say how their cans changed others can say how theirs didn't. You can also listen to the same model with different burn in from a friend. That has nothing to do with scientific facts, but exactly as the 50, 70, 100, 150, 500 hours of burning suggested or the usual answer "Di you burn it?" to "this headphone sucks at my ears".

True; one cannot say, the HP changed, neither that it didn´t change.
In fact, i think chances are if the HP would change you wouldn´t recognise it as your brain will try to adjust to sonical changes.

When it comes to your friends phone, we´re at the point of DBT; not a good subject here.