[QQQ]

Not a lot of people can distinguish average amp from top-class one. Basically people think price when it comes to choosing amp(well, like 95%) here. Take something like Compass and slap it into fancy box with top-flight logo(and several grands $ of price) and head-fi bandwagonists will assure you it's the best thing they've ever heard. It's not bad actually, since Compass are that good really, but, you've got my point... Dam*, people sweared that Singlepower amps sound godlike before it's been discovered that it
s basically two wallwart psu tied together inside Singlepower's big "PSU" box...

 

[moonboy403]

Sure SP amps might have terrible flaws, but they still sound awesome to my ears.

What's your experience with SP amps?

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif ... As long as the sound card you are going to use has lower output impedance than the cans you are going to use it and as long as you can listen to music to your desired volume it will be good enough....A dedicated headphone amplifier can serve for having a dedicated volume control or to power up low impedance cans without changing the FR response curve of the headphones.

What a load of complete piffle. And I had thought to hope that your agenda on amps in this manner might just be contained to your refusal to accept contradictory opinions on electrostatic headphone amplifiers.

I've owned the HD650. I've heard the difference in them generated by adding an amp. And many similar experiences at meets. This is a listening observation that has been made by hundreds of people in thousands of rigs over many years.

You are spitting up the wind tunnel with the drivel you're coming out with.

 

[moonboy403]

Note that the only amps Bullseye ever bought were a Cute Beyond and a Little Dot 1+ as amp.

 

[aimlink]

The Cute Beyond is quite good but needs the separately sold stock PSU to go with it. Again, the need for the PSU with the Cute Beyond or decent power supplies for amps and DAC's vs basic walwarts go along the same lines as the need for a headphone amp at all.

 

[Bullseye]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duggeh /img/forum/go_quote.gif What a load of complete piffle. And I had thought to hope that your agenda on amps in this manner might just be contained to your refusal to accept contradictory opinions on electrostatic headphone amplifiers. I've owned the HD650. I've heard the difference in them generated by adding an amp. And many similar experiences at meets. This is a listening observation that has been made by hundreds of people in thousands of rigs over many years. You are spitting up the wind tunnel with the drivel you're coming out with.

Yeah right. So now I am to believe that an amplifier that measures flat w/o an impedance load and that remains unchanged when the headphones are connected is going to change from simply "average" to "outstanding"?

And that because amplifier that costs A (which supposedly has excellent measures) is surpassed by amplifier B that costs A + X (being X another quantity) which has better measurements yet still all above human threshold is going to make a difference? Well, at least I won't be buying that (fairy)tale.

The problem comes with what you said. That you heard it, and you saw it as well.

You know, when I first got my first headphone amplifier after some time getting "used to it" I also thought I heard a change. I also needed to justify my purchase. I had also been pretty influenced by what people had written in this site. I was expecting a big change. And now i doubt I got any of that. Even more I think it all was my mind, and myself, that tricked me into thinking there was a change.

Then say the more the amp costs, the more you need to justify your purchase. There has to be one time that no matter what other amplifier you try the " audible improvement" has to be extremely small. Our ears have a limit and with aging they become less and less reliable.

In the electrostatic headphone amplifier case I still have to give it the benefit of doubt, but for the rest, where there are measurements and such, no sir, I won't be fooled by my ears.

I am willing to be mistaken in all of this. If there is enough proof that tells me *that NOT ONLY in some specific cases, given some situations* that different amps sound audibly different -that proof has to be scientific, because they use equipment way more precise than my ear will ever be- I will stop saying out loud.

No wonder why some people who come from the pro-scene left so quickly... So much piffle is difficult to bear...

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullseye /img/forum/go_quote.gif You know, when I first got my first headphone amplifier after some time getting "used to it" I also thought I heard a change. I also needed to justify my purchase. I had also been pretty influenced by what people had written in this site. I was expecting a big change. And now i doubt I got any of that. Even more I think it all was my mind, and myself, that tricked me into thinking there was a change.

I paid US$375 for my P-51 Mustang to go with my W3. I no longer use it because it's just another unit in my portable chain that, by golly, I struggle to hear a difference. For that pairing of amp and cans, I agree with what you're saying fully. I'm also not impressed with how it amps the bigger cans since the difference between its sound and that of my iMac and iPod outputs is not easily heard if there at all. I'm disappointed and have little interest in exploring portable amps. I'm leaning towards your general opinion and skepticism where battery powered amps are concerned.

However, funnily, just today my son came asking me for a pair of full cans. He listened to one of my full cans and wants to use one. He asked me if they could be played with his iPod nano. I assured him, yes. I demo'd with my Grado SR325is. I also listened to them on the nano for myself, and though he was impressed because they do play, the difference when plugged into the HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp was BIG. The Ultra Micro Amp has its dedicated power unit since it's a power hungry amp. The energy, punch and control it confers on the higher end cans is clear to hear and a desirable improvement. Once I discovered this difference, I can't personally advise spending big bucks on a high end pair of cans with the plan to plug them into an iPod.

Finally, A/B listening is a funny thing. You often don't realize the difference until experience A or B for a while and then it's taken away from you. My experience with listening to my HD650's after listening to my SR325is for a period of time was very instructive in this way. I knew the SR325is was more forward and heard this when I first heard them, but I didn't realize just how much it was in comparison to the HD650's until I grew accustomed to the Grado's and then switched back to the HD650's for a Senn session. An amps influence can work in a similar way and I'm always cautious when merely sampling cans or amps.

 

[DanielCox]

I agree to an extent. I think an amp makes a difference depending on the can in question (for example on a HD555/595 there is barely a difference, on a K701 there is a large difference).
Still - there'll be more difference between phones than there will be between amps.

 

[aimlink]

I have an HD595 and agree that they do quite well without amp'ing. If one were to buy one of those without any intention to amp them I'd not stick my hand up in objection and that it's a bad idea.

 

[Bullseye]

Thank you for your explanation. Even so I'd like to ask you one question that can make that difference.

When you did the test, (from powering headphones with ipod and with dedicated amp) did you measure the output signal (so that it was the same for both), or did you measure with an SPL meter so that it was the same when powered by both?

I doubt you did. Why am I saying this? Because something as comparing two different sets with one having more volume than the other can make that difference.

By saying this I don't mean that the ipod cannot be changing the FR curve of the headphones, but what I am saying is that your conclusion might not be well founded.

Why did after spending loads of time listening to your grados, and after you changed to the sennheiser seem like a big difference? Because you had gotten used to the same presentation in sound. Our ears can grasp differences when they happen in a short amount of time. But I believe if everyday you listen to your two pairs of headphones a similar amount of time, you focus on enjoying your music and have a nice time with both, those difference will not be so "apparent". Wait because I am not saying that there is no difference. In fact there is, but hasn't it happened that over time two headphones that when doing fast changes sounded very different don't sound so different any more? Or they sound closer to you than you expected?

The only thing I am trying to say with all of this is that people should criticize their own experiences more. They shouldn't just make easy conclusions about something. They should also find issues in their tests, they should be aware of what they are doing and how they are doing. And they should not disregard science nor measurements.

The latter doesn't have feelings, they just measure a signal and represent it in the way we designed them to do. They use mathematics, algorithms, and never get tired. We could even say that they "don't lie".

And our feelings can lie. Your mind can be fooled (no need to give you different examples of this, I believe), and so can our ears.

Even so, if you enjoy powering your headphones with your amplifier, I won't stop you from doing it. Even more you would be using what you payed for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I paid US$375 for my P-51 Mustang to go with my W3. I no longer use it because it's just another unit in my portable chain that, by golly, I struggle to hear a difference. For that pairing of amp and cans, I agree with what you're saying fully. I'm also not impressed with how it amps the bigger cans since the difference between its sound and that of my iMac and iPod outputs is not easily heard if there at all. I'm disappointed and have little interest in exploring portable amps. I'm leaning towards your general opinion and skepticism where battery powered amps are concerned. However, funnily, just today my son came asking me for a pair of full cans. He listened to one of my full cans and wants to use one. He asked me if they could be played with his iPod nano. I assured him, yes. I demo'd with my Grado SR325is. I also listened to them on the nano for myself, and though he was impressed because they do play, the difference when plugged into the HeadRoom Ultra Micro Amp was BIG. The Ultra Micro Amp has its dedicated power unit since it's a power hungry amp. The energy, punch and control it confers on the higher end cans is clear to hear and a desirable improvement. Once I discovered this difference, I can't personally advise spending big bucks on a high end pair of cans with the plan to plug them into an iPod. Finally, A/B listening is a funny thing. You often don't realize the difference until experience A or B for a while and then it's taken away from you. My experience with listening to my HD650's after listening to my SR325is for a period of time was very instructive in this way. I knew the SR325is was more forward and heard this when I first heard them, but I didn't realize just how much it was in comparison to the HD650's until I grew accustomed to the Grado's and then switched back to the HD650's for a Senn session. An amps influence can work in a similar way and I'm always cautious when merely sampling cans or amps.

 

[hifidk]

First of all, I want to say that I don't want to jump into amp vs ampless war. However, I can say that I prefer high-end headphone without an proper amp over amped low-end headphone. For example, I prefer sound of HD580/600 straight out of my iPhone over JVC HARX700 with Corda Cantate, EF1, D10 and so on.

However, I still feel that I NEED a good amp with any high-end headphone.

 

[Pyriel0]

Bullseye, I don't see anything in your equipment that is high end so what are you basing your opinion on?

Edit: Since you are most likely writing a one page response that just talks in circles again I'll go ahead and add something since you want to use math and science as your excuse. The better amps use more powerful parts/tubes/transistors that can swing voltage and current faster and reduce noise giving better control over the drivers and a cleaner signal.

On my closed can, this has given more control over the bass. Taking it down a notch and letting the treble and mids shine through more. Giving a more balanced and appealing sound. On both open cans, it has made the bass more punchy and apparent so they do not sound like a huge wave of cymbal+snare bashing.

 

[Bullseye]

Yeah, well. That is no "high-end" because it hasn't broken the bank doesn't mean in doesn't perform like High-end.

What you say about using different parts I have not said nothing against them. What I am saying is that those differences being audible is not very likely to be (In some specific cases, not talking about extremes here).

The last paragraph of yours is just a subjective opinion. It can be easily be made up by anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pyriel0 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Bullseye, I don't see anything in your equipment that is high end so what are you basing your opinion on? Edit: Since you are most likely writing a one page response that just talks in circles again I'll go ahead and add something since you want to use math and science as your excuse. The better amps use more powerful parts/tubes/transistors that can swing voltage and current faster and reduce noise giving better control over the drivers and a cleaner signal. On my closed can, this has given more control over the bass. Taking it down a notch and letting the treble and mids shine through more. Giving a more balanced and appealing sound. On both open cans, it has made the bass more punchy and apparent so they do not sound like a huge wave of cymbal+snare bashing.

 

[paulb09]

For me, this question is dependent on the source. If the source sounds crap, yet has continuous power and enough of it to get sensible listening volume, I'd choose the better, more inefficient headphone. However, if the source was to have either too little power for sensible volume from inefficient headphones, a limited amount of power before recharging, or both (i.e. battery powered portable sources), I'd use the worse sounding yet more efficient headphones. Wouldn't matter if I got both free, because there's no point in using the better headphone if you can't get enough volume, or the battery runs out stupidly quickly.

 

[ear8dmg]

Don't entirely discount the JVC SU-DH1 as an amp. It does a better job with my Goldring NS1000s in passsive mode than my CMOY and a much better job than my AV receiver. There's a little bit of noise that becomes apparrent when I turn it up louder than comfortable listening though.

Not a high end amp by any means but I suspect it will be just about adequate for some of these more demanding headphones.