Hifiman HE1000-SE

[Pulcino]

For me burn in was significant. Out of the box detail retrieval was great but everything sounded a bit harsh. Now that’s gone and there’s a sense of sovereignty I really like.

 

[Hubert481]

Does someone have a frequency chart picture V2 vs Stealth vs SE ?

 

[Emmanuel Palmer]

For me burn in was significant. Out of the box detail retrieval was great but everything sounded a bit harsh. Now that’s gone and there’s a sense of sovereignty I really likm

For me burn in was significant. Out of the box detail retrieval was great but everything sounded a bit harsh. Now that’s gone and there’s a sense of sovereignty I really like.

I figured most times burn in is a result of the amp reaching its desired temperature. That is why you hear statements like "it sounded harsh out of the box and i left it playing overnight and now it sounds smooth"
When amps become warm to the touch they sound smoother and as intended

 

[MrHaelscheir]

Have you exercised the headphones to their recommended times? 100-150hrs? If not, do so then run your tests. The HEKse, has loads more bass and texture and clarity than any of the other HEK, and certainly more than anything below it. The presentation is smooth, clear and holographic. And in general as most can attest to, Hifiman headphones are a bit rough out of the box till the diaphragms are worked in.

Okay. So I conducted a few measurements, whereby interestingly enough, there are two factors that caused me to measure the Arya Stealth as having better sub-bass through the stock pads:

1. I had forgotten that on Monday when I removed the pads to take photos comparing the drivers, the left pad (the measurements shown were for the left driver) was sufficiently frustrating that part of the inner lining delaminated like below:

Figure 1: HiFiMan Arya Stealth left stock pad inner lining delamination.

This lining doesn't seem to be adhered anywhere else, but it so happened to get loose and creased at this part, possibly modifying the seal properties of the pad.

2. My measurements revealed that while I was observing more sub-bass for the left driver, for the right channel measurements it was actually rather the HE1000se that had slightly better sub-bass extension; I was favouring left channel measurements since my right in-ear microphone had known bass and treble roll-off compared to my much more linear left in-ear microphone. Swapping the undamaged new left pad into the Arya Stealth slightly decreased the left channel's sub-bass extension, but it was still greater than on the HE1000se. For the right channel measurements, the frequency response differences between the fresh and broken-in pads throughout was minimal. Hence, my Arya Stealth which already had clear FR differences in the treble between the left and right channels (worse driver matching than on the Meze Elite and HE1000se, hence less coherent imaging) most likely has a real sub-bass channel imbalance that skewed these measurements.

So from an objective standpoint, bass quantity and the "shape" of that sub-bass extension is at least probably pretty similar between these two headphones, whereby differences in the upper midrange and lower treble might cause your preferred listening level to incur 1 dB or 2 dB more bass. "loads more bass" is an inherently measurable thing, and of course achievable with EQ with objectively no harm but a bit more harmonic distortion and phase distortions that are capable of being corrective as I have demonstrated with my Meze Elite V3 PEQ. Subjective impressions require certainty of a proper volume match which would require in-ear frequency response measurements anyways and a decision on which frequency to match at. If I gave you two subwoofers and volume pots for each, how could I possibly trust you to discern which one has "more bass"? You would be trying to use your ears as spectrum analyzers, which presents quite the error margin.

Burn-in - Fresh Versus Broken-In Pads:

Here are my measurements comparing the frequency responses for the HE1000se and Arya Stealth with the fresh (a few hours) pads originally from the HE1000se and the three months broken-in pads originally from the Arya Stealth, focusing on possibly "burn-in" effects related to pad compression over time. Here, I use the right channel measurements since I know those pads' integrity hasn't been compromised.

Figure 2: HiFiMan HE1000se magnitude and phase response for the fresh pad.

Figure 3: HiFiMan HE1000se magnitude and phase response for the broken-in pad.

Figure 4: HiFiMan Arya Stealth magnitude and phase response for the fresh pad.

Figure 5: HiFiMan Arya Stealth magnitude and phase response for the broken-in pad.

As can be seen, for both headphones on the right channel, the frequency response differences between the old and new pad are minimal, and one can also see that the HE1000se's and Arya Stealth's sub-bass extensions are now much more comparable. Worst case, this match-up was only thanks to unit variation.

@Pulcino I won't doubt that people experience a thing they call "burn-in", just that its causality must be called into question. In my opinion, if there are no measurable or significant differences in the driver performance and the sound it actually presents, then what is being experienced is more likely psychological in nature, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would consider such initial harshness as merely being elevated treble compared to what one was used to, whereby one mentally gets used to it. The same can be experienced with switching to a new EQ profile. For example, I had in recent months started EQing to the free-field response simulating the sound of neutral speakers in an anechoic chamber, whereby compared to Harman, the 2 kHz to 4 kHz region is around 5 dB to 10 dB bright, but is theoretically "correct" in simulating a "perfect" monitoring system that plays back the original frequency content of the recording exactly as it is, whereby in such a perfect monitoring system, it would be up to the mixer to apply EQ to correct errors in the recording methodology or spectral issues from the venue or mic placement. Given that, strings in certain symphonic recordings did sound rather harsh, but as my brain and ears grew accustomed to this presentation, I got used to the sound signature and could come to prefer it to my previous and more relaxed EQ, some excellent recordings now having the string vividness I was looking for.

Figure 6: Meze Elite left channel EQed to the free-field in-ear response for a speaker panned 30 degrees to the left in quasi-anechoic conditions. Brighter than the sun, eh? (Edit: See https://www.head-fi.org/threads/rec...-virtualization.890719/page-121#post-18027627 (post #1,812); speaker neutral isn't actually this bright for my in-ear headphone measurement reference.) Note that there will also be phase interactions with the sound coming out of the right virtual speaker, whereby for the SPARTA AmbiBIN binaural renderer, in-phase or centered sound sources come to have a spectral balance closer to Harman levels.

@Emmanuel Palmer "Amp warm-up" should also be a measurable thing. It at least exists for tube amps. I have yet to see if the FiiO K9 Pro ESS exhibits this behaviour. Anyways, the "burn-in" being discussed is independent of how long the amp has been running, spanning multiple days or weeks.

 

[Emmanuel Palmer]

I use my He1000se with k9pro. When i turn it on to listen to music after it's been turned of like for a whole day, the treble sounds edgy and then i let music play for like an hour before i start listening and it will sound smooth and lacking nothing

 

[Emmanuel Palmer]

Okay. So I conducted a few measurements, whereby interestingly enough, there are two factors that caused me to measure the Arya Stealth as having better sub-bass through the stock pads:

1. I had forgotten that on Monday when I removed the pads to take photos comparing the drivers, the left pad (the measurements shown were for the left driver) was sufficiently frustrating that part of the inner lining delaminated like below:


Figure 1: HiFiMan Arya Stealth left stock pad inner lining delamination.

This lining doesn't seem to be adhered anywhere else, but it so happened to get loose and creased at this part, possibly modifying the seal properties of the pad.

2. My measurements revealed that while I was observing more sub-bass for the left driver, for the right channel measurements it was actually rather the HE1000se that had slightly better sub-bass extension; I was favouring left channel measurements since my right in-ear microphone had known bass and treble roll-off compared to my much more linear left in-ear microphone. Swapping the undamaged new left pad into the Arya Stealth slightly decreased the left channel's sub-bass extension, but it was still greater than on the HE1000se. For the right channel measurements, the frequency response differences between the fresh and broken-in pads throughout was minimal. Hence, my Arya Stealth which already had clear FR differences in the treble between the left and right channels (worse driver matching than on the Meze Elite and HE1000se, hence less coherent imaging) most likely has a real sub-bass channel imbalance that skewed these measurements.

So from an objective standpoint, bass quantity and the "shape" of that sub-bass extension is at least probably pretty similar between these two headphones, whereby differences in the upper midrange and lower treble might cause your preferred listening level to incur 1 dB or 2 dB more bass. "loads more bass" is an inherently measurable thing, and of course achievable with EQ with objectively no harm but a bit more harmonic distortion and phase distortions that are capable of being corrective as I have demonstrated with my Meze Elite V3 PEQ. Subjective impressions require certainty of a proper volume match which would require in-ear frequency response measurements anyways and a decision on which frequency to match at. If I gave you two subwoofers and volume pots for each, how could I possibly trust you to discern which one has "more bass"? You would be trying to use your ears as spectrum analyzers, which presents quite the error margin.

Burn-in - Fresh Versus Broken-In Pads:

Here are my measurements comparing the frequency responses for the HE1000se and Arya Stealth with the fresh (a few hours) pads originally from the HE1000se and the three months broken-in pads originally from the Arya Stealth, focusing on possibly "burn-in" effects related to pad compression over time. Here, I use the right channel measurements since I know those pads' integrity hasn't been compromised.


Figure 2: HiFiMan HE1000se magnitude and phase response for the fresh pad.


Figure 3: HiFiMan HE1000se magnitude and phase response for the broken-in pad.


Figure 4: HiFiMan Arya Stealth magnitude and phase response for the fresh pad.


Figure 5: HiFiMan Arya Stealth magnitude and phase response for the broken-in pad.

As can be seen, for both headphones on the right channel, the frequency response differences between the old and new pad are minimal, and one can also see that the HE1000se's and Arya Stealth's sub-bass extensions are now much more comparable. Worst case, this match-up was only thanks to unit variation.

@Pulcino I won't doubt that people experience a thing they call "burn-in", just that its causality must be called into question. In my opinion, if there are no measurable or significant differences in the driver performance and the sound it actually presents, then what is being experienced is more likely psychological in nature, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. I would consider such initial harshness as merely being elevated treble compared to what one was used to, whereby one mentally gets used to it. The same can be experienced with switching to a new EQ profile. For example, I had in recent months started EQing to the free-field response simulating the sound of neutral speakers in an anechoic chamber, whereby compared to Harman, the 2 kHz to 4 kHz region is around 5 dB to 10 dB bright, but is theoretically "correct" in simulating a "perfect" monitoring system that plays back the original frequency content of the recording exactly as it is, whereby in such a perfect monitoring system, it would be up to the mixer to apply EQ to correct errors in the recording methodology or spectral issues from the venue or mic placement. Given that, strings in certain symphonic recordings did sound rather harsh, but as my brain and ears grew accustomed to this presentation, I got used to the sound signature and could come to prefer it to my previous and more relaxed EQ, some excellent recordings now having the string vividness I was looking for.


Figure 6: Meze Elite left channel EQed to the free-field in-ear response for a speaker panned 30 degrees to the left in quasi-anechoic conditions. Brighter than the sun, eh? Note that there will also be phase interactions with the sound coming out of the right virtual speaker, whereby for the SPARTA AmbiBIN binaural renderer, in-phase or centered sound sources come to have a spectral balance closer to Harman levels.

@Emmanuel Palmer "Amp warm-up" should also be a measurable thing. It at least exists for tube amps. I have yet to see if the FiiO K9 Pro ESS exhibits this behaviour. Anyways, the "burn-in" being discussed is independent of how long the amp has been running, spanning multiple days or weeks.

Perhaps you should do a measurement of say something like the k9pro initial music playing vs after like 3 hours

 

[MrHaelscheir]

1-Octave Multitone Distortion Measurements:

This should wrap up my distortion comparisons. I recently tried switching my pink spectrum multitone generation from 1/12 octave to 1 octave, my through the Arya Stealth with Dekonite Elite Fenestrated Sheepskin pads on at the time happening to exhibit clear intermodulation distortion (IMD) through the bass to the treble tones. The reason I had originally avoided these less dense multitone measurements where the bass doesn't get too crowded is that for my chosen volume level at the time, literally no IMD was showing up through the noise floor, my assuming that that signal "wasn't demanding enough".

The measurements below were all taken with the left in-ear microphone for the left driver. Ignore the orange frequency response trace.

Figure 1: REW RTA noise floor.

In the below measurements, I followed the same volume-matching procedures as in post #4,789, but I so happened to set my FiiO K9 Pro ESS's volume knob with between outputting 99 dBA and 101 dBA, whereby midway during my new versus old pad measurements, the DAC/amp jumped up to playing back the latter higher level. The signal generator was also set to output at -5 dBFS instead of -4.5 dBFS to avoid digital clipping.

Figure 2: Meze Elite 1-octave pink multitone distortion. Exceptional. The IMD is the spurious tones "gathering" around the bass of the tones. At the original 99 dB instead of 101 or 102 dB playback reference, this IMD was very close to the noise floor.

Figure 3. HiFiMan HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads 1-octave pink multitone distortion. Worse, particularly in the bass and midrange. I happened to have these pads on the HiFiMans at the time, whereby their frequency responses are indeed similar, just that the Elite Fenestrated Sheepskin has worse sub-bass extension.

Figure 4. HifiMan Arya Stealth with Dekoni Elite Fenestrated Sheepskin 1-octave pink multitone distortion. Yet worse.

Figure 5. Jabra Elite 85h with EQ 1-octave pink multitone distortion. This was the best I could volume-match it before the internal ADC, DAC, or amp would start clipping. Better than the Arya Stealth in certain places, but having a higher noise or distortion floor in the midrange and upper bass.

Figure 6. Audio-Technica ATH-M50xBT 1-octave pink multitone distortion. The worst bass multitone distortion out of these, but more competitive in the upper midrange and treble.

So here and there, you do indeed get what you pay for.

 

[Pulcino]

I figured most times burn in is a result of the amp reaching its desired temperature. That is why you hear statements like "it sounded harsh out of the box and i left it playing overnight and now it sounds smooth"
When amps become warm to the touch they sound smoother and as intended

Not in my case, the SE changed a lot, after >100h, not during amp warm up.

 

[morpheus69]

Not in my case, the SE changed a lot, after >100h, not during amp warm up.

My amp and dac are on 24/7. My SE is so damn smooth and revealing with amazing holograph sound and transients. Arya is very good but not on the same level at all.

 

[dfiled]

I'm going to ask my question again, since the last time I did it was confusing:

For those who have heard the HE1000v2 Stealth and the HE1000SE, which has more physical impact/bass slam?

 

[Shakarone]

I'm going to ask my question again, since the last time I did it was confusing:

For those who have heard the HE1000v2 Stealth and the HE1000SE, which has more physical impact/bass slam?

The He1000 V2 stealth has a little more impact and slam and also has more bass quantity and fullness compared to the se. I owned both at the same time to compare at one point.

 

[TheAbyss2022]

The He1000 V2 stealth has a little more impact and slam and also has more bass quantity and fullness compared to the se. I owned both at the same time to compare at one point.

Which had the better texture or best bass quality?

 

[Shakarone]

Which had the better texture or best bass quality?

In terms of speed and quality of bass the se is slighty ahead. The v2 stealth has more satisfying bass though due to it being more elevated which impacts the rest the frequency response by providing more body and a warmer sound throughout. The se wins slightly in technicalities in every area and also provides a more holographic experience with greater depth to the soundstage. It also sounds a little more neutral comparatively.

 

[Spawn300Z]

Also the SE scales very well. The better the chain the better it gets. Closest to the Susvara of the whole HEK series. You could definitely be happy if Thomas your only headphone.

 

[MrHaelscheir]

Perhaps you should do a measurement of say something like the k9pro initial music playing vs after like 3 hours

Measurements with actual music is a more difficult and complicated thing mainly the subject of academic papers; I also had somewhat misread your message such that I didn't think to also do before and after multitone distortion measurements. Anyways, I today went ahead and at least took sine sweep frequency response and distortion measurements showing the change, or lack thereof, after 2 hours (my measurement apparatus involves wearing rather uncomfortable in-ear microphones for which the treble response may change a bit, mainly in the levels of the peaks, if they are removed and reinserted, whereby wearing them for 3 hours straight without doing other useful measurements is undesirable). I am already from the subjective stance of having never noticed any differences in "harshness" or other qualities between my first turning on my FiiO K9 Pro ESS and returning to it after leaving it on. These measurements were taken using the left in-ear microphone now inserted into my right ear so I could get a better comparison of the sub-bass extension given my finding that the Arya Stealth's left driver is an outlier. The use of the Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads was simply because that was what was already installed from the hours of listening preceding this measurement session.

Figure 1: HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads frequency response taken within a few minutes of turning on the FiiO K9 Pro ESS (4:08 PM). The phase response is to be ignored since here, I opted to use the FiiO K9 Pro ESS's internal DAC as opposed to the MOTU M2's (audio interface for the measurement microphones) through the FiiO's line in so as to be more similar to your conditions, unless you happened to have an external DAC.

Figure 2: HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads frequency response taken after around 2 hours (6:12 PM). Since I was busy taking measurements with the MOTU M2 as the DAC for facilitating accurate phase response measurements, I did have to change the volume knob setting and then approximately volume match it later, my having had to volume match this graph to the previous within the measurement application by about 0.7 dB. Otherwise, clearly there can be no differences in harshness due to the amp's tonality changing over time as it might measurably do on a tube amp (argued by some sources as rather plateauing over a much shorter time than claimed), this even being the case with my having swapped out the pads in order to measure others within that 2-hour timespan.

A better volume match between before and after measurements was obtained for those measurements taken using my MOTU M2's DAC, these also not showing much differences. Here is the harmonic distortion of the left driver (using the right in-ear microphone which has sub-bass and some treble roll-off) as measured at 4:21 PM and 6:20 PM.

Figure 3: HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads distortion captured at 4:21 PM.

Figure 4: HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads distortion captured at 6:20 PM. There are barely any differences. I had likewise already shown that multitone distortion is correlated with its measured harmonic distortion, so your perceived decrease in harshness is unlikely to be related to the amp's distortion performance improving over time. Now, for these two specific measurements the treble around 6 kHz may look to have relaxed by less than a dB, but this was to an extent resolved by pressing on the in-ear microphone a bit to correct for possible outward drive in position over those two hours.

Now, I do admit that I live in Canada in a living room that sits at 20 degrees Celsius, and have my FiiO K9 Pro ESS oriented vertically with custom rubber stand-offs to maximize the airflow through the lower vent for maximum heat dissipation, so the DAC/amp didn't actually get particularly warm, mind I've interestingly found that it tends to get physically warmer when left on standby without any music playing. Otherwise, there is clearly no "non-thermal warming-up" of the amp going on across these timespans.

Given this, sure, you may really be perceiving differences in harshness, but know that at least these measurements suggest that they are not related to the amp's actual performance over time. One thing is the earpads having been positioned slightly differently after returning to the amp, causing perception of a difference. Alternatively, the chance of one's noticing a difference (there have been many times that I thought I heard a difference and it disappeared after going back; our minds can play tricks on us) caused reinforcement and expectation of perception of a difference between two things that are impossible to A/B side-by-side without time travel.

As for why I didn't show the distortion measurement for the right driver, well, let's say that while changing pads and despite being mindful, amid these pads on this particular headphone being especially stubborn even when pulling from the inner edge of the and applying much inward force with the thumb, I dun goofed and pulled off a Joshua Valour, accidentally but unwittingly puncturing the lower right of the right driver with my fingernail while trying to free the lower right retaining clip...

Figure 5: Stick me in the headphone owners' Hall of Shame. I figured that I would best disclose this rather than silently come back with impressions that use a replacement driver.

Now, as seen in the below measurement that revealed the problem which I finally found to indeed be from the driver, that little hole brought the driver's midrange distortion to be worse than on the Arya Stealth, though the frequency response is largely unchanged and music still sounds quite good. This distortion may only be relevant for the most demanding passages. I still want the issue remedied, whereby it likely can't be covered by the warranty. "Money not spent on an X9000 system".

Figure 6: HE1000se with Dekoni Elite Hybrid pads right driver distortion after small puncture at lower right.

Better HE1000se and Arya Stealth Sub-bass Comparison:

@morpheus69 Here are measurements comparing the frequency response for the right driver of the HE1000se and Arya Stealth using the same fresh stock pad:

Figure 7: HE1000se and Arya Stealth . "NS" for the red traces stands for "New Stock" pad. "DEH" for the green traces stands for "Dekoni Elite Hybrid". "DEV" for the blue traces stands for "Dekoni Elite Velour".

These measurements were volume-matched around 300 Hz where the general response down to 20 Hz is revealed to be very similar between the two headphones, the Dekoni Elite Velour pads being the only ones to exhibit noticeable differences in infrasonic extension, whether or not this was an outlier in terms of pad seating. For some listeners, their bass quantity may be identical, the differences mainly being in the upper midrange and treble. For other listeners, those upper midrange and treble differences can cause their volume matching to cause one headphone to have its otherwise very similarly shaped bass region raised by a dB or few. Worst case, one "volume matches" until they "hear" more bass based on their expectation, and so on. But yes, the HE1000se objectively has better bass distortion performance compared to the Arya Stealth. The rest like comparative "slam" or "bass quality" is most likely psycho-social per one's beliefs and one's existence within a network of opinions. Otherwise, enjoy what you enjoy, though there exist objective measures of what was actually gained for the money.