[MrHaelscheir]

The pads are identical. Clamping force is just slightly higher on Arya. This can have some effect but not this much. I used Arya for over a year now and the soundstage was always my complaint about them. I'm very used to them. Putting on HEKSE, the stage/imaging difference is just immediately noticeable apart from loudness or the tuning scoop. I eq my headphones and i can get pretty high score from Sean Olive's ''how to listen'' software. So i can recognize frequencies and their effects to some degree. The difference here is quite obvious so i think it can't be relegated to slight loudness or midrange scoop difference.



That's a nice track. On Arya Stealth, it starts at my left eardrum and goes to my right ear from the back of my head, creating an arc. HEKSE does the same thing but more obvious and slightly more distant. It creates a bigger arc. Arya sounds like it's inside of my head, very intimate. HEKSE just slightly outside of my head. I also tried dolby atmos 7.1.4 demo. HEKSE just have better imaging contrast and space. It's like the aspect ratio of the sound is different if that makes sense. Arya is narrow and tall, HEKSE have more horizontal space. It's like 4:3 vs 16:9 aspect ratio. HEKSE also creates space between things.


I will test out more. I will eq them to harman and see how they do like that. It's time consuming because i have to switch earpads and HEKSE's earpad clips are quite secure.

I guess it is indeed a matter of different ears and perception. For me, with almost any pair of headphones (what few I have tried), say, the Jabra Elite 85h and ATH-M50xBT, the pencil starts somewhere on the left driver, maybe a specific centimeter or few beyond it (generally the same position between these headphones), then progressing backwards up to the plane just behind my head as though writing upon a table that intersects my head, then progressing to the right behind my head no more than three centimeters, continuing straight to the right then I guess by some hearing artifact arcing backwards behind the right driver (I guess a recording can only simulate traveling deeper into a driver so much). It is very similar to me between the Arya Stealth and Meze Elite, and I've felt like the size of the trajectory was likewise similar on the smaller headphones, but merely more "obstructed" and hence "intersected through" by the smaller pads and closer drivers.

Now, this track truly astonished me the first time I heard it through the Meze Elite when the sound source at times sounded ridiculously far compared to the other headphones I was auditioning, though that effect was tamed to be more similar to other EQed headphones upon later listens:

Basically, for me, nigh the entirety of the "soundstaging" in the sense of "image size/staging" is within the recording itself, the rest purely being a subjective sense of more space around my ears or a "bigger" sound clearly coming from a larger driver.

 

[yeboyi]

Basically, for me, nigh the entirety of the "soundstaging" in the sense of "image size/staging" is within the recording itself

Well, obviously recordings have their own staging tricks. What i discuss here is the difference between headphones on same normal day to day tracks. I know some people just don't hear soundstage/imaging/headstage or whatever on headphones. It's about perception i guess. Amir from audiosciencereview also doesn't hear ''soundstage'' but he says this about hd800s:
What was remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments. It was as if this headphone would take every element in the music, pull it apart, and then position it in different spatial locations in a 6 inch space around each ear. I wouldn't call it "soundstage" as much was it was this fun and captivating effect.

So there is still some acknowledgment going on. When i talk about ''soundstage'' i talk about it in the context/realm of headphones. I wonder if you are a ''speaker guy'' because i always have this debate with people who primarily use speakers and expect speaker like soundstage from headphones. That's not gonna happen unless the recording uses some tricks like the 8D video you shared. This doesn't mean we are not gonna appreciate the staging/imaging differences on headphones.

 

[MrHaelscheir]

Well, obviously recordings have their own staging tricks. What i discuss here is the difference between headphones on same normal day to day tracks. I know some people just don't hear soundstage/imaging/headstage or whatever on headphones. It's about perception i guess. Amir from audiosciencereview also doesn't hear ''soundstage'' but he says this about hd800s:
What was remarkable and uncanny was separation of instruments. It was as if this headphone would take every element in the music, pull it apart, and then position it in different spatial locations in a 6 inch space around each ear. I wouldn't call it "soundstage" as much was it was this fun and captivating effect.

So there is still some acknowledgment going on. When i talk about ''soundstage'' i talk about it in the context/realm of headphones. I wonder if you are a ''speaker guy'' because i always have this debate with people who primarily use speakers and expect speaker like soundstage from headphones. That's not gonna happen unless the recording uses some tricks like the 8D video you shared. This doesn't mean we are not gonna appreciate the staging/imaging differences on headphones.

I am very much the opposite of a speaker guy, well, starting out as a youngster with cheap desktop speakers with maybe a vague assumption that the channels are supposed to point toward your ears (I wouldn't be surprised if I had the channels swapped around), then transitioning to earphones then cheap headphones until getting the ATH-M50xBT in early 2019, my learning how to EQ the midrange dip that ruined piano tone for me, then the Jabra Elite 85h in 2021 after graduating for working at home since I wanted neutral ANC headphones, then the Arya Stealth this February despite my at the time having been unable to tell the difference in "soundstage" between that and the HD 800 S, MM-500, and Focal Clear MG, mind my Jabra when reasonably volume-matched, everything at the time producing just as "big" of an orchestral sound other than the clear perception of larger earpads, greater openness, or further drivers, nothing exaggerated. I funny enough was lately swayed from saving up for a high-end estat system in favour of getting the KEF LS60 and two Rythmik G22s, but was reminded that there is no way I am blasting symphonies in this household until I finally get my own office amid renovations. I do regularly use bs2b crossfeed over foobar2000 to pleasant effect in pushing the image forward, though it doesn't help as much with excessively panned tracks or certain higher-frequency content.

For me, "separation" mainly comes after EQing toward Harman or diffuse field so as to attain a clearer balance.

I use Yosi Horikawa's "Letter" among others as imaging benchmarks since those are the tracks where I have found imaging to be most apparent, and where I find their span very similar between headphones. And I am very much referring to the headphone soundstaging I've been used to reading or hearing in reviews or impressions, particularly folks convinced they can hear an arm's length or more bubble of image placement all around them without ever telling us what they were listening to. And if someone is to claim "high imaging resolution" or a "three bubble effect", I would want a recording where the sound sources are actually moving, however it is that the mixer achieved that. Consider the panning of sources in

I'd vie that especially if two headphones have the same shape and driver size, then it is probably a difference in tonality creating an HRTF trick equivalent to a doctored recording, except that it is now applied to everything. I guess I am of the stance that assuming an EQ similar to "speakers in a room" and without crossfeed, if very similar frequency responses are reaching the ears, then the only "soundstaging" I will be hearing is how it was mixed in the recording, the rest being the subjective contribution of pad size/feel and driver distance.

Now, even with (Rodrigo y Gabriela "Ixtapa" which I would consider to be fairly "day to day"), I find the guitars placed similarly around the front left and right, hovering at or in front of the cups, the left one maybe a tad more forward, just whether or not the ear cups feel like they are intersecting with that image as on the EQed Jabra Elite 85h and ATH-M50xBT. I do find the Meze Elite's presentation subtly more pleasant than the Arya's, but that is probably primarily an effect of the pad comfort. The "sharpness" of that imaging (after comparable EQ) I have found to rather be related to the transient qualities of the headphone itself, the Arya Stealth for example being particularly incisive with guitar plucks compared to the damped likes of the DCA Expanse that I auditioned. And in theory, I am of the stance that general driver matching is foremost in imaging "accuracy", the rest mostly being embedded in the mix or stereo mic placement.

And as for orchestral imaging, I had recently found at concert halls that "width" (unless you are sitting at the very front or are one of the musicians) may not at all be what you are looking for when the entire sonic image is in fact just within the relatively narrow orchestra you see before you, its being an airy void to your sides. bs2b crossfeed can help a bit in that regard provided that the mix doesn't use excessive panning. I had also realized that at least for me, that "in the forehead" center image was actually exactly what I was experiencing at the concert hall, as though the sense of "imaging" were a "tingly vector" pointing outward from the middle of my head toward the sound, whereby what's left is timbre, visual queues, and headtracking to establish a sense of distance. Brass could be sufficiently loud at that distance to sound like it might as well be right in front of you.

@yeboyi I would appreciate imaging or soundstage test track recommendations of your own and how you perceive them.

 

[morpheus69]

Thankfully these are just tests. Glad music isn't recorded like this, we'd have a new type of sickness (motion/audio?!).

 

[morpheus69]

No shortages of tests for audio staging (it's all about the mix), unless recorded live via mics.

 

[jrjr99]

comparison or Arya Organic with HE1000 stealth

https://audionotions.com/hifiman-arya-organic-he1000-stealth/

pair the he1000 stealth with an amp with some warmth (such as Violectric V280/1) and it is truly great

 

[MrHaelscheir]

No shortages of tests for audio staging (it's all about the mix), unless recorded live via mics.

Maybe not the most "day to day", but I do credit the latter two videos as having some nice imaging and transient ear candy within them. 18:53 and on in the fourth video is pretty nice. Front left and front right, fairly similar across all four headphones which have been EQed similarly when listening to the music itself independent of "feeling" the headphones. For the first four minutes of the third video (which honestly gives me Yosi Horikawa vibes), I'd say all four do quite well to paint a sonic picture laying out the drums in a semicircle before me, maybe even with some variations in height positioning, though one in the lack of visual and headtracking aids does need to apply some imagination; there are at least reasonable timbre and reverb queues for said distance. And I must say, the Jabra's EQed bass over Bluetooth can be impressively wholesome. Maybe the Jabra's lower bass stage is slightly smaller, else, as I have described back in the Meze Elite thread, it's like having a smaller window into the same image or scene. Basically, these personal experiences have led to my coming to look for other things beyond soundstage and imaging when in search of an "upgrade".

 

[morpheus69]

Maybe not the most "day to day", but I do credit the latter two videos as having some nice imaging and transient ear candy within them. 18:53 and on in the fourth video is pretty nice. Front left and front right, fairly similar across all four headphones which have been EQed similarly when listening to the music itself independent of "feeling" the headphones. For the first four minutes of the third video (which honestly gives me Yosi Horikawa vibes), I'd say all four do quite well to paint a sonic picture laying out the drums in a semicircle before me, maybe even with some variations in height positioning, though one in the lack of visual and headtracking aids does need to apply some imagination; there are at least reasonable timbre and reverb queues for said distance. And I must say, the Jabra's EQed bass over Bluetooth can be impressively wholesome. Maybe the Jabra's lower bass stage is slightly smaller, else, as I have described back in the Meze Elite thread, it's like having a smaller window into the same image or scene. Basically, these personal experiences have led to my coming to look for other things beyond soundstage and imaging when in search of an "upgrade".

Sound stage should be perceivable on pretty much any headphone from cheap to expensive. Of course scaling upwards, with faster drivers, dynamic vs planar, and having a decent amp which can control the headphones properly to keep things in line, and not let them get sloppy adds greatly to the perception of the stage, because the clarity of it improves.

 

[toni2068]

-redacted excellent post about headphone soundstage-

have you experienced soundstage differences with amp/dac swaps? same headphone, same song?

 

[yeboyi]

@yeboyi I would appreciate imaging or soundstage test track recommendations of your own and how you perceive them.

It's just apparent on every song honestly. Including Horikawa's Letter and Crossing.

 

[MrHaelscheir]

have you experienced soundstage differences with amp/dac swaps? same headphone, same song?

The only DAC/amp swap I am able to do is between my PC's motherboard and my FiiO K9 Pro ESS. Without delving too deep into Sound Science, I'll state that I am of the objectivist stance that

1. if two signal chains measurably deliver the exact same (within audible thresholds) signal (in other words, same measured magnitude and phase frequency response, within audible thresholds, and distortion below audible thresholds) to the same transducers (volume matching is extremely important since slight increases in volume can reveal details, render the sound "bigger", and perhaps influence tonal perception) such that the same soundwaves reach your ear drums, any perceived differences must necessarily be related to other perceptual factors such as expectation bias etc.,
2. that that is not necessarily a bad thing so long as it is consistent for you and enhances the experience, and you can happily accept that (until we come up with new measurements) those differences which you do hear (semantically, I think there needs to be a separation of "hearing" in terms of subjective perception taking into account all stimulus available to the subject, versus "hearing" in terms of an electric and acoustic signal being presented to the ears) are not innate technical achievements of that gear (beyond "real" psychological magic or the blessing of the Omnissiah),
3. and that in my opinion, one needn't feel offended by the thought of certain subjective differences being primarily psychological, whereby perhaps indeed, high-end gear comes with the extra-sonic experience its makers weave with it. I for example know first hand that when I auditioned my Meze Elite against the similarly EQed DCA Expanse and 2022 Focal Utopia, that "extra sweetness" that made me fall in love with it at the shop was in fact something that could be EQed away from it and imbued on another headphone upon closer inspection (basically, when using the same headphones.com measurements, the Meze Elite somehow ended up having a boosted 600 to 700 Hz region which sounded great with Rodrigo y Gabriela). And if I do on a sighted test manage to get my mind blown by a fancy DAC, amp, or cable while also knowing that the exact same soundwaves are reaching my ears as another stack, so long as that experience lasts despite my best efforts to shake away the "illusion", I can happily enjoy that gear. If when presented with two options, an unsighted test manages to cause the differences to disappear, but those differences come back in all their glory after reintroducing the sighted stimulus, I would obviously choose the one that makes me the happiest.

Now, I did recently notice that my PC's DAC/amp seems to have a noticeable downward tilt from bass to treble, though I have yet to measure it; otherwise, it clearly wasn't powerful enough to drive my planar magnetics loud enough when using EQ with digital preamps. But if considering my Jabra Elite 85h's built-in DAC/amp over Bluetooth, I would vie that it is plenty adequate for the job.

As for my upcoming electrostatic headphone purchase, the only reason for my "happily" looking at things like the Mjolnir Audio Carbon CC (and for the "bling" of its fancier capacitors and wire materials) is that it is known that it is hard and expensive to make a highly linear and low-distortion estat amp/energizer with enough power, and Kevin Gilmore's designs are generally known to measure well. I am not seeking "magical" properties, but rather for objective performance comparable to non-estat solid-state amps. Now, I have yet to see whether the Topping EHA5 is actually as good as their purported measurements considering that it appears to "nothing more than" A90D circuitry driving likely low-performance transformers.

 

[DarginMahkum]

The only DAC/amp swap I am able to do is between my PC's motherboard and my FiiO K9 Pro ESS. Without delving too deep into Sound Science, I'll state that I am of the objectivist stance that

1. if two signal chains measurably deliver the exact same (within audible thresholds) signal (in other words, same measured magnitude and phase frequency response, within audible thresholds, and distortion below audible thresholds) to the same transducers (volume matching is extremely important since slight increases in volume can reveal details, render the sound "bigger", and perhaps influence tonal perception) such that the same soundwaves reach your ear drums, any perceived differences must necessarily be related to other perceptual factors such as expectation bias etc.,
2. that that is not necessarily a bad thing so long as it is consistent for you and enhances the experience, and you can happily accept that (until we come up with new measurements) those differences which you do hear (semantically, I think there needs to be a separation of "hearing" in terms of subjective perception taking into account all stimulus available to the subject, versus "hearing" in terms of an electric and acoustic signal being presented to the ears) are not innate technical achievements of that gear (beyond "real" psychological magic or the blessing of the Omnissiah),
3. and that in my opinion, one needn't feel offended by the thought of certain subjective differences being primarily psychological, whereby perhaps indeed, high-end gear comes with the extra-sonic experience its makers weave with it. I for example know first hand that when I auditioned my Meze Elite against the similarly EQed DCA Expanse and 2022 Focal Utopia, that "extra sweetness" that made me fall in love with it at the shop was in fact something that could be EQed away from it and imbued on another headphone upon closer inspection (basically, when using the same headphones.com measurements, the Meze Elite somehow ended up having a boosted 600 to 700 Hz region which sounded great with Rodrigo y Gabriela). And if I do on a sighted test manage to get my mind blown by a fancy DAC, amp, or cable while also knowing that the exact same soundwaves are reaching my ears as another stack, so long as that experience lasts despite my best efforts to shake away the "illusion", I can happily enjoy that gear. If when presented with two options, an unsighted test manages to cause the differences to disappear, but those differences come back in all their glory after reintroducing the sighted stimulus, I would obviously choose the one that makes me the happiest.

Now, I did recently notice that my PC's DAC/amp seems to have a noticeable downward tilt from bass to treble, though I have yet to measure it; otherwise, it clearly wasn't powerful enough to drive my planar magnetics loud enough when using EQ with digital preamps. But if considering my Jabra Elite 85h's built-in DAC/amp over Bluetooth, I would vie that it is plenty adequate for the job.

As for my upcoming electrostatic headphone purchase, the only reason for my "happily" looking at things like the Mjolnir Audio Carbon CC (and for the "bling" of its fancier capacitors and wire materials) is that it is known that it is hard and expensive to make a highly linear and low-distortion estat amp/energizer with enough power, and Kevin Gilmore's designs are generally known to measure well. I am not seeking "magical" properties, but rather for objective performance comparable to non-estat solid-state amps. Now, I have yet to see whether the Topping EHA5 is actually as good as their purported measurements considering that it appears to "nothing more than" A90D circuitry driving likely low-performance transformers.

This is an industry where thousands of people are getting to pay their bills every month. It will not stop just because we hit the limits of human hearing.

There are just 12 notes in the western scale, and there are many songs out there that are using the same scales and chord progressions again and again and again, with a slight twist in the lyrics and a slight twist of image singing them, an image adopted to the trends of the day - yet still keep feeding a billion dollar industry. People are not tired of buying the same product in a new packaging. Most of those hits are not too different from the music of an average signer/song writer that barely makes a living out of music, but the ones with shiniest of images get to earn millions.

Headphones are just a cover up for people to be able to socialise online and do shopping therapy for self healing. It is not that people don't know about the limits of hearing. We did not evolve to become audiophiles, but to survive and hunt as large predators, hearing an insect walking on a tree while a volcano is erupting was not in the menu of evolution for us but we buy the idea of the audibility of -300 dB distortion in music, or using 256 bit floats to upsample PCM data. Even 50+ aged people claim to hear those.

So there's nothing wrong in being happy with our next nonsense purchase. It is all about hanging out here and having something new to say and catch up with the new trends.

 

[hanumanbob]

This is an industry where thousands of people are getting to pay their bills every month. It will not stop just because we hit the limits of human hearing.

There are just 12 notes in the western scale, and there are many songs out there that are using the same scales and chord progressions again and again and again, with a slight twist in the lyrics and a slight twist of image singing them, an image adopted to the trends of the day - yet still keep feeding a billion dollar industry. People are not tired of buying the same product in a new packaging. Most of those hits are not too different from the music of an average signer/song writer that barely makes a living out of music, but the ones with shiniest of images get to earn millions.

Headphones are just a cover up for people to be able to socialise online and do shopping therapy for self healing. It is not that people don't know about the limits of hearing. We did not evolve to become audiophiles, but to survive and hunt as large predators, hearing an insect walking on a tree while a volcano is erupting was not in the menu of evolution for us but we buy the idea of the audibility of -300 dB distortion in music, or using 256 bit floats to upsample PCM data. Even 50+ aged people claim to hear those.

So there's nothing wrong in being happy with our next nonsense purchase. It is all about hanging out here and having something new to say and catch up with the new trends.

Bravo well said.

 

[gibby]

Is anyone successfully driving the Stealth with a portable DAC/AMP or DAP? My old Hiby R6 Pro is just not driving these to their potential. I guess I may try selling or trading. They've sat in a bag in a drawer for months.

 

[hanumanbob]

Is anyone successfully driving the Stealth with a portable DAC/AMP or DAP? My old Hiby R6 Pro is just not driving these to their potential. I guess I may try selling or trading. They've sat in a bag in a drawer for months.

Ifi Gryphon is fine