Hi-res recording from vinyl: Something missing?

[Zeppmeister]

This forum seemed the best place to ask this. I hope someone has some expertise.

Background: I just got my first turntable ... so I feel old and young at the same time (I'm 51). Besides the enjoyment of listening to vinyl directly, I was looking forward to making some hi-res (24/192) transfers/recordings and then producing DSD files for my FiiO DAP. A good "head-fi friend" regularly talks up DSD, so I thought I'd give it a go.

Issue: After getting set up with a Focusrite Scarlett interface and making a try or two (positive results, for sure), I analyzed a recording using Spek. It makes me wonder if I'm not set up right or ... if this is just how digital transfers of vinyl look? I've double checked all the settings in Windows. The Scarlett should definitely be doing 24/192.

For a track that is supposed to be 24/192, it seems lacking. But I'm new to this.

That's "Dogs" from Pink Floyd's Animals. And this is the same track from last year's Bluray release (definitely 24/192):

Perhaps this is a sort of apples and oranges issue ... and perhaps I shouldn't be too concerned about the differences.

I came here to find out if I should be. Thanks.

 

[71 dB]

Well, the vinyl rip "lacks" all kind of noise and garbage above 40 kHz that is present in the Blu-ray which seems to have pretty clean signal up to 40 kHz, while what's on the vinyl rip above 20 kHz looks distortion.

What exactly did you expect to see?

 

[Zeppmeister]

I suppose I was expecting to see the graph more "filled up" ... but I can appreciate the way you've deciphered it.

 

[bigshot]

That isn't a good display to use because LPs don't have much of anything apart from noise above 15kHz. Use a level meter instead. You need to monitor the level of the input of your computer. 16/44.1 is more than enough to capture everything on a vinyl record if you set your levels properly. Are you using a phono preamp? You need to use one of those. If you are, a preamp that allows you to adjust the volume of the output would be useful to make sure your level is high enough. Remember to leave a little headroom so you don't go into clipping. You want to set it so the loudest stuff gets into the yellow and just kisses the edge of the red.

The real trick to transcriptions from disk isn't the capture... that part is easy. The trick is noise reduction. You have several kinds of noise on a record, and each one takes a little different approach to clean up.

 

[Zeppmeister]

That isn't a good display to use because LPs don't have much of anything apart from noise above 15kHz. Use a level meter instead. You need to monitor the level of the input of your computer. 16/44.1 is more than enough to capture everything on a vinyl record if you set your levels properly. Are you using a phono preamp? You need to use one of those. If you are, a preamp that allows you to adjust the volume of the output would be useful to make sure your level is high enough. Remember to leave a little headroom so you don't go into clipping. You want to set it so the loudest stuff gets into the yellow and just kisses the edge of the red.

The real trick to transcriptions from disk isn't the capture... that part is easy. The trick is noise reduction. You have several kinds of noise on a record, and each one takes a little different approach to clean up.

Yeah I'm running a Schiit Mani 2 going into a Schiit Vali 2. Here's an example of a capture. I'm pretty happy with the early results.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jma199njuz0rasb/YYZ.wav?dl=0

 

[bigshot]

The surround mix of Animals on the blu-ray is spectacular.

 

[Davesrose]

I've got quite a few blu-ray concert discs: I find they're great with surround sound. Usually they do market "hi res" when it comes to 92kHz, but what makes them involving is having an audience in surround channels and full use of subwoofer. When it comes to vinyl, I do often chuckle that folks think it can be "high res". In measurements it might have "something" in inaudible frequencies...but conceptually, it's superfluous distortion. The dictating technology with vinyl is the RIAA curve: an attempt to make a flat curve with differences in recording and playback in vinyl within audible ranges. As to why there's a new interest in records, I think it's some young people thinking it cool there's physical media that has large cover art. I have a TT and collection of records. Some out of print that never made it to another medium, some from the 70s that had good masters, and some new ones that have some cool easter eggs (like one new technology is generating holograms if you shine a flashlight on areas of a disk).

 

[castleofargh]

I'll let those who know better talk about vinyl recording tips & tricks.
But I guess it could be because your discs aren't new. The needle will physically impact the vinyl over time and the faster the frequency, the harder it 'gets it'.
Then there can also be the "luck" factor. Making vinyls has several mechanical processes before arriving to the stamper, which, like anything else, has a limited number of uses before it goes bad. How many vinyls will someone decide to make with that, how often will they check the quality? And where in the series was your disc?
Last idea, the extra signal being mostly -100dB and below, it might be a question of boosting the signal enough as suggested. The maximum dynamic range of a scarlet solo, 2i2 or whatever goes beyond 100dB, but not by a lot, and only under fairly ideal conditions. On my old version of a 2i2 I had to fool around quite a bit to find the best gain setting for a given measurement use.

 

[Davesrose]

But @castleofargh, can vinyl actually get beyond theoretical ranges? I'm thinking the main reason the OP is seeing these clippings is the RIAA curve with vinyl.

 

[bigshot]

If your tracking is adjusted properly and your stylus isn't chipped, you should be able to play records over and over and over for decades without any significant wear. I know this because I have records I bought in the 70s that I've played enough I can play them back from beginning to end in my memory and they still sound like new. In fact, I have 78s that are over a century old that still play like new, and those have been played by a steel needle hundreds, if not thousands of times. The reason we see worn records is because of mishandling, abuse and improper alignment, not proper playback.

Pressings do vary greatly. Those manufactured during the Arab oil embargo tend to have noisy surfaces because they were recycling old records to make new vinyl and the dirt on the old records got embedded in the plastic. (Or so I was told at the time.) LP collectors generally spend most of their time talking about which pressings are the best... but I just buy CDs and don't worry about it.

I just got another 10 CD box set of 12 inch 45rpm disco singles from that company in the Netherlands I linked to a couple of weeks ago. The higher turntable speed and shorter playing time eliminates the problem of inner groove reduced dynamics and distortion. The CD transfers sound absolutely perfect.

 

[castleofargh]

IDK. My personal lack of interest is a real neuron killer. I learned quite a lot about vinyls over the years but almost nothing "sticks". I only remember that I should know the answer(same with old math)

Our buddy nanalogsurviverer would probably say that it easily goes to infinity and beyond.

If your tracking is adjusted properly and your stylus isn't chipped, you should be able to play records over and over and over for decades without any significant wear. I know this because I have records I bought in the 70s that I've played enough I can play them back from beginning to end in my memory and they still sound like new. In fact, I have 78s that are over a century old that still play like new, and those have been played by a steel needle hundreds, if not thousands of times. The reason we see worn records is because of mishandling, abuse and improper alignment, not proper playback.

You don't count, you can't even tell when there is extra ultrasonic space, details and whatchamacallit that feels like more. So how would you notice if and when it goes away?

 

[bigshot]

You don't count, you can't even tell when there is extra ultrasonic space, details and whatchamacallit that feels like more. So how would you notice if and when it goes away?

I learned an important truth when I became a teenager and started jumping out of my bedroom window late at night to meet up with friends to smoke pot and play midnight games of Frisbee golf at the park... I'll share this truth with you... "What mom doesn't know doesn't hurt her." I live my life by that. I don't let worry about theoretical problems mess up my fun.

 

[Davesrose]

If your tracking is adjusted properly and your stylus isn't chipped, you should be able to play records over and over and over for decades without any significant wear. I know this because I have records I bought in the 70s that I've played enough I can play them back from beginning to end in my memory and they still sound like new. In fact, I have 78s that are over a century old that still play like new, and those have been played by a steel needle hundreds, if not thousands of times. The reason we see worn records is because of mishandling, abuse and improper alignment, not proper playback.

I think that's a given for any audiophile on this forum to know to have an appropriate tracking force for vinyl. But if we have some older inherited older shellac records we've inherited? Should there be a difference in tracking force, or 78 rpm good enough?

 

[bigshot]

78s require a different needle and a different EQ. The grooves are about ten times wider than LPs and they don't adhere to the RIAA curve. So it's more than just the speed. You can get cartridges with 78 styli in various sizes and shapes to use on modern turntables. If you look at swap meets you can generally find suitcase or schoolhouse phonos for cheap that play them, or you can go the acoustic route and get a phonograph with a steel needle, diaphragm and horn that doesn't require electricity. If anyone wants advice on the options to do that, I'm happy to share my arcane knowledge about that.

By the way improper alignment and poor compliance are generally much more apt to cause problems than high tracking weights. Alignment is the angle the stylus rides in the groove, and compliance is the springiness of the stylus responding to the groove variations. Out of align styli don't make proper contact with the groove- one side digs into one side of the groove and the other misses the wall completely. Old styli can be stiff riding through the groove like a plow. The other common problem is a chipped diamond tip. That can shave the grooves as you play them. If everything is correct, the needle rides smoothly along in the groove without damaging it, just like a pig sliding down a hill of mud!

 

[Davesrose]

78s require a different needle and a different EQ. The grooves are about ten times wider than LPs and they don't adhere to the RIAA curve. So it's more than just the speed. You can get cartridges with 78 stylii in various sizes and shapes to use on modern turntables. If you look at swap meets you can generally find suitcase or schoolhouse phonos for cheap that play them, or you can go the acoustic route and get a phonograph with a steel needle, diaphragm and horn that doesn't require electricity. If anyone wants advice on the options to do that, I'm happy to share my arcane knowledge about that.

By the way improper alignment and poor compliance are generally much more apt to cause problems than high tracking weights.

Thanks, yeah....I was really anal about setting up my TT for LPs (also have a good record cleaner for buying used LPs). It is funny that when I got my TT, all my family then did want to unload their records on me. Including my grandmother that includes quite a few 78s. Kind of figured they were their own thing given stereotype of big needle and shellac being be more forgiving. Given that they are such old records, the new DIY gramophones might be something just to try.