Hi-Res Albums vs. Mastered for iTunes (or Apple Digital Master) Albums - Which is Better??!
Sep 6, 2022 at 5:54 PM Post #106 of 112
Anyone still active on this thread? I also check the Steve Hoffman thread about Mastered For iTunes/Apple Digital Masters once in awhile but not very many updates. I love these ADM (Apple Digital Master) tracks. Usually these sound better to me than some of the old 80s CDs for classic rock albums; but it's often cheaper than getting the CD, and I have it instantaneously. I don't really feel like I can hear a difference between lossless and 256k AAC. Someone demonstrated the differences to me once on a listening test they put together with some very expensive equipment, and I recall that the things that were missing from 256k AAC were so small and overlooked that it basically didn't matter.
 
Sep 6, 2022 at 7:26 PM Post #107 of 112
Anyone still active on this thread? I also check the Steve Hoffman thread about Mastered For iTunes/Apple Digital Masters once in awhile but not very many updates. I love these ADM (Apple Digital Master) tracks. Usually these sound better to me than some of the old 80s CDs for classic rock albums; but it's often cheaper than getting the CD, and I have it instantaneously. I don't really feel like I can hear a difference between lossless and 256k AAC. Someone demonstrated the differences to me once on a listening test they put together with some very expensive equipment, and I recall that the things that were missing from 256k AAC were so small and overlooked that it basically didn't matter.
No doubt Apple Music via usb from iMac to Parasound 2.1 P6 sounds on par to SACD.
 
Sep 9, 2022 at 2:09 PM Post #108 of 112
Anyone still active on this thread? I also check the Steve Hoffman thread about Mastered For iTunes/Apple Digital Masters once in awhile but not very many updates. I love these ADM (Apple Digital Master) tracks. Usually these sound better to me than some of the old 80s CDs for classic rock albums; but it's often cheaper than getting the CD, and I have it instantaneously. I don't really feel like I can hear a difference between lossless and 256k AAC. Someone demonstrated the differences to me once on a listening test they put together with some very expensive equipment, and I recall that the things that were missing from 256k AAC were so small and overlooked that it basically didn't matter.
I started this thread, but haven't really had anything new to discuss in a while.

Yes, I def agree that ADM tracks are typically superior to the competition. The fact that Apple is taking the extra step of downsampling the Hi-Res FLAC/ALAC tracks down to 256 kbps AAC (so I no longer have to do it! lol) is not only convenient, but it also is why they're so much cheaper than the competition, who would have you believe that you can actually tell a difference. I've done enough comparisons to confidently say you can't, but some people believe they can. Whatever. lol

Perhaps on VERY expensive equipment you could tell a difference, but most ppl aren't gonna spend like $5K on an amp/DAC or headphones anyway. And yeah, a difference is a difference, but then there's minor and not so minor. Also, that "someone" you mentioned...............were they playing the two versions from the SAME source? Meaning was it the same master, same sound settings, etc? If not, then it truly doesn't matter.

The truth is, as long as the ORIGINAL SOURCE is Hi-Res, downsampling will not only save you money, but space too if you back them up like I do (Google Drive). Plus playing Hi-Res tracks uses up more battery power on your player/phone, so that's another factor to consider. The real reason why Hi-Res tracks sound the best is because the engineers & producers typically give them more attention than say mp3 or even CD tracks from what I've read. So again, as long as the source is Hi-Res, it's all good. Just don't downsample those albums or tracks down to mp3 land. :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown::rolling_eyes::scream:🤣

Yeah CDs from the 80s and especially 90s were typically brickwalled aka forced to sound louder which makes you think it's better. But many times they were too loud, to the point where details were lost. That's why I got so into Hi-Res tracks because it was much closer to vinyl-quality, but without the scratch sounds. lol
 
Sep 19, 2022 at 2:02 AM Post #109 of 112
The real reason why Hi-Res tracks sound the best is because the engineers & producers typically give them more attention than say mp3 or even CD tracks from what I've read.
It’s actually the other way around. The hi-res version is mastered first and down-sampled to the hi-res format. The CD and other, lower res versions are either just down-sampled from that same hi-res mastering session or more processing is applied first (additional compression for example) and then it’s down-sampled. So, the lower res versions have either the same “attention” as the hi-res version or a little more.

The “real reason hi-res tracks sound the best” is therefore either: They don’t sound best, they sound identical or, they can sound better in some cases (depending on listening environment) because they have less compression.
Yeah CDs from the 80s and especially 90s were typically brickwalled aka forced to sound louder which makes you think it's better.
That’s always been the case, going back at least to the early 1950’s. In the 1990’s computer based limiters became available which allowed more compression/make-up gain to be added.

Whether being louder “makes you think it’s better” depends on your listening environment. Although in many/most typical listening situations it does.

G
 
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Sep 22, 2022 at 3:16 PM Post #110 of 112
It’s actually the other way around. The hi-res version is mastered first and down-sampled to the hi-res format. The CD and other, lower res versions are either just down-sampled from that same hi-res mastering session or more processing is applied first (additional compression for example) and then it’s down-sampled. So, the lower res versions have either the same “attention” as the hi-res version or a little more.

The “real reason hi-res tracks sound the best” is therefore either: They don’t sound best, they sound identical or, they can sound better in some cases (depending on listening environment) because they have less compression.

That’s always been the case, going back at least to the early 1950’s. In the 1990’s computer based limiters became available which allowed more compression/make-up gain to be added.

Whether being louder “makes you think it’s better” depends on your listening environment. Although in many/most typical listening situations it does.

G
I dunno. From what I'd read, each album that gets remastered goes through a process where they master several different versions, including Hi-Res, vinyl, CD, mp3, etc. Is like FLAC or ALAC a downsample of that original remaster? Cuz I thought those were lossless.

Yeah to me, there's no audible difference b/t FLAC/ALAC and MP4/AAC, but there def is vs. mp3. Esp sub-256 kbps mp3, where it just sounds rough, the cymbals when hit sound artificial and "wet", etc.

I've listened to some CDs that were labeled by some as "brickwalled", and to me yeah they're louder but it was like overwhelming (like WOOSHH, or in your face lol) vs. like a later Hi-Res version that clearly sounded more balanced and easier to listen to in terms of hearing all the various details of the instruments, vocals, etc.
 
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Sep 23, 2022 at 5:03 AM Post #111 of 112
I dunno. From what I'd read, each album that gets remastered goes through a process where they master several different versions, including Hi-Res, vinyl, CD, mp3, etc. Is like FLAC or ALAC a downsample of that original remaster?
The terminology gets a bit messed up here, due to what exactly is meant by “master” or “remaster” and the fact that the audiophile world often doesn’t fully understand what these professional terms mean and commonly comes up with it’s own meaning/definition, which can be somewhat different to the actual meaning. For example, “remasters” are commonly actually “remixes” rather than just remasters. As a general rule, there is just one version of a master (or remaster), which is then down-sampled to the different distribution formats, Hires, CD, MP3, etc. As mentioned though, sometimes the CD (and/or lossy format) is actually a different version of that master/remaster because it may have had additional compression/limiting applied. A vinyl “version” may also actually be a different version. The vinyl is often just cut from the same digital master but sometimes it requires specific processing (for example, mono’ing the bass, some additional compression or the RIAA EQ curve applied), because vinyl has certain technical issues/limitations that don’t apply to CD (and other digital formats).
Yeah to me, there's no audible difference b/t FLAC/ALAC and MP4/AAC, but there def is vs. mp3. Esp sub-256 kbps mp3, where it just sounds rough, the cymbals when hit sound artificial and "wet", etc.
With MP3, artefacts may become audible below around 180kbps, exactly what kbps depends on the specific encoder employed. At 320kbps (or 256VBR), MP3 is always audibly transparent assuming a very old (>20 years) encoder hasn’t been used.
I've listened to some CDs that were labeled by some as "brickwalled", and to me yeah they're louder but it was like overwhelming (like WOOSHH, or in your face lol) vs. like a later Hi-Res version that clearly sounded more balanced and easier to listen to in terms of hearing all the various details of the instruments, vocals, etc.
“Brickwalled” is another example of what I mentioned above. Brickwall limiting has been applied to pretty much all analogue and digital recordings during the mastering process for around 70 years. There are exceptions but they’re not common and typically only found on some digital recordings of some acoustic music genres, some classical pieces for example.

In the audiophile world, “brickwalled” appears to refer to the specific condition where numerous layers of heavy compression and limiting have been applied (with make-up gain), to the point that when zoomed out, the waveform display appears to show little or no dynamic variability and therefore looks somewhat like a “brick”. Such extreme compression/limiting mainly stems from around the mid/late 1990’s when computer based limiters became available, although the music engineering community was raising serious concerns about the excessive use of compression/limiting several years earlier, even before the computer based limiter were available. This extreme compression/limiting only really affects popular music genres and of course is designed to be audible, otherwise there’d be no point in taking the time applying it. Whether it sounds better or worse depends on your listening environment, the individual piece of music and exactly how extreme the compression/limiting. As a general rule, such extreme compression/limiting will sound significantly worse on a good/decent system in a decent (relatively quiet) listening environment. This is also why *some* hires recordings sound better than the CD (or lossy) versions of the same master. For ~25 years, hires versions were limited to at least decent systems in decent listening environments, while CDs and lossy versions were commonly played on poor equipment/environments; when working out, driving/travelling, playing back on laptop speakers, etc., conditions where higher amounts of compression/limiting would sound better and was therefore sometimes applied to those formats likely to be used under these conditions.

So, it’s got nothing intrinsically to do with hires vs CD/lossy, there’s no audible difference between them. On those occasions when there actually is an audible difference, it’s because the recording rights holder (usually the record label) has requested the mastering engineer apply more compression/limiting to the formats typically used in sub-optimal listening circumstances.

G
 
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Sep 27, 2022 at 5:10 PM Post #112 of 112
The terminology gets a bit messed up here, due to what exactly is meant by “master” or “remaster” and the fact that the audiophile world often doesn’t fully understand what these professional terms mean and commonly comes up with it’s own meaning/definition, which can be somewhat different to the actual meaning. For example, “remasters” are commonly actually “remixes” rather than just remasters. As a general rule, there is just one version of a master (or remaster), which is then down-sampled to the different distribution formats, Hires, CD, MP3, etc. As mentioned though, sometimes the CD (and/or lossy format) is actually a different version of that master/remaster because it may have had additional compression/limiting applied. A vinyl “version” may also actually be a different version. The vinyl is often just cut from the same digital master but sometimes it requires specific processing (for example, mono’ing the bass, some additional compression or the RIAA EQ curve applied), because vinyl has certain technical issues/limitations that don’t apply to CD (and other digital formats).
Ahh ok. Wow, very interesting, though yes also quite confusing too! lol

Hmm I C. I thought brickwalling meant jackin' up the volume more, but it sounds like it's actually more about applied compression. I know examples of Hi-Res releases where the masters are actually quieter than former releases include those by Tom Petty (which he himself confirmed), Fleetwood Mac, and I believe The Eagles. They actually are designed that way so that when you turn up the volume, you can hear all the microdetails that can get lost on mp3s, former releases where the volume was jacked up, etc. I own most if not all of the Hi-Res releases from those 3, so I can vouch for that statement directly.

Yeah, makes sense. Though it just seems that I've listened to enough bad mp3s to know that if you're gonna hear a difference, it's when comparing them to AAC/MP4s or higher.
 

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