Hi Res 24/96 from my Mac Book
Feb 6, 2017 at 8:16 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22

manufelices

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Hi everybody!
I want to listen to my Hi Res music (24/96) from my MacBook Pro, via streaming. If I understand correctly, the bottleneck is in Airplay which converts all files to CD quality (16/44) before send them. So, how could I transmit the music 24/96 from my laptop via WIFI or Bluetooth? I think, that I could use the NAD dac2 but do you know another way?
Thanks a lot!!
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 4:20 AM Post #2 of 22
  Hi everybody!
I want to listen to my Hi Res music (24/96) from my MacBook Pro, via streaming. If I understand correctly, the bottleneck is in Airplay which converts all files to CD quality (16/44) before send them. So, how could I transmit the music 24/96 from my laptop via WIFI or Bluetooth? I think, that I could use the NAD dac2 but do you know another way?
Thanks a lot!!

You need to get away from AirPlay.  Certainly NOT bluetooth!  
 
You'd start with a media server that can deal with 24/96 files, followed by a client/player, both on your network.  I like PLEX.  You 'd want a PLEX client that can deal with 24/96 (.  Lots of them out there, including some AV receivers, and the little Fire TV stick (probably the cheapest if the device you're connecting it to has HDMI) or a client with DLNA capability.  
 
BTW, down-sampling doesn't do a thing to SQ, and there's nothing wrong with CD quality.  PLEX is great, and handles 24/96 (and higher) just fine, but there's really no point.  
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 4:37 AM Post #3 of 22
  BTW, down-sampling doesn't do a thing to SQ, and there's nothing wrong with CD quality.  PLEX is great, and handles 24/96 (and higher) just fine, but there's really no point.  

 
I may not know a lot about audio, but I am a photographer. I know for a fact that downsampling an image reduces the quality of that image. There is a reason that the technical term for downsampling is "decimation". You lose data. How can you lose data and say that the sound quality is unaffected?
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 5:08 AM Post #4 of 22
  Hi everybody!
I want to listen to my Hi Res music (24/96) from my MacBook Pro, via streaming. If I understand correctly, the bottleneck is in Airplay which converts all files to CD quality (16/44) before send them. So, how could I transmit the music 24/96 from my laptop via WIFI or Bluetooth? I think, that I could use the NAD dac2 but do you know another way?
Thanks a lot!!


​I have two laptops, each is loaded with my iTunes library. The audio files in the library consist of AAC, ALAC, AIFF, and WAV types from 256k to 24/192. One laptop is used for Wi-Fi convenience via Airport Express to pre/pro for digital to analog conversion. The other laptop uses an external sound card which up samples or down samples all files to 24/96 and this card sends files to pre/pro for digital to audio conversion. Now, in experiments on music mastered at 24/96, which reside in my library at 24/96, listening from either laptop's player, I can't discern any difference in sound I'm hearing to state the experience from one laptop is better than the experience with the other laptop. This is why I have not yet purchased any sort of hi-res streaming device. The bottom line, Airplay may not be a bottleneck as you perceive it to be.
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 5:18 AM Post #5 of 22
 
  BTW, down-sampling doesn't do a thing to SQ, and there's nothing wrong with CD quality.  PLEX is great, and handles 24/96 (and higher) just fine, but there's really no point.  

 
I may not know a lot about audio, but I am a photographer. I know for a fact that downsampling an image reduces the quality of that image. There is a reason that the technical term for downsampling is "decimation". You lose data. How can you lose data and say that the sound quality is unaffected?


he meant at an audible level. but even at a measurable level, the most obvious effect is to remove some ultrasonic frequencies.humans aren't famous for picking up on those.
the photography analogy is super bad. it usually doesn't work even for bit depth, but for pretty obvious reasons you're going to have a hard time making an analogy for samples per second on a picture ^_^. the closest thing you'll get is screen refresh rate and it has nothing to do with the file containing the picture or what is done to it.
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 5:31 AM Post #6 of 22
 
he meant at an audible level. but even at a measurable level, the most obvious effect is to remove some ultrasonic frequencies.humans aren't famous for picking up on those.
the photography analogy is super bad. it usually doesn't work even for bit depth, but for pretty obvious reasons you're going to have a hard time making an analogy for samples per second on a picture ^_^. the closest thing you'll get is screen refresh rate and it has nothing to do with the file containing the picture or what is done to it.


What's the point of 24/96 source material if audibly no one can tell the difference between it and 16/44.1 source? Some people say that we can't tell the difference between 16/44.1 uncompressed and 256kbps AAC source. Let's not even get into DACs.
 
The point of the analogy was that removing information from a photo by downsampling it reduces the fidelity of that photo. The same happens when audio content is downsampled. And it's not just about frequencies...dynamic range is involved too, right?
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 6:41 AM Post #7 of 22
I honestly only have very specific situations where I believe there is a point to having more than 16/44 for playback purpose. and a flawed analogy doesn't make for a good point is all I was trying to say. the all high res battle already has too many topics dedicated to it, we can probably leave this one alone.
 
in any case, OP doesn't care about that, he wishes to get highres on his system. airplay has been known to convert to 16/44. so pinnahertz probably gave good advice for alternative streaming that will actually support high resolutions.
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 7:52 AM Post #8 of 22
 Airplay which converts all files to CD quality (16/44) before send them

I wonder if this is true.
A lot of Apple devices are limited to 16/44
This does not necessarily implies that the Airplay protocol it self  is limited to 16/44 as well
The problem of course is that Apple talks live style, not specs so it is a bit hard to find out what the properties of the Airplay protocol really are.
 
This https://discussions.apple.com/message/12500427#12500427 suggest  that if the streamer is capable of 24/96, Airplay can supply it.
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 8:31 AM Post #9 of 22
I enjoy Airplay via Airport Express. Airport Express will receive any most any file type from MP3 to 24/192 yet digital output is at 16/44. I do not know if the digital files are up sampled  or down sampled at the Airport Express device or at the laptop. I suspect the up or down sampling occurs at Airport Express however since I have iTunes set to play using Windows Audio Session at  24/192.
 
BTW, I have a song from Bill Evans Moonbeams album which I downloaded from HDtracks at 24/192. I downloaded the same song from the iTunes Store, delivered at 256k. Now, since the original recording of this song was mastered in analog. I dis not expect that the 24/192 file would sound better than the AAC file; and, I was right about that. Hi-Res is a total scam. I do believe that digital recordings may be appreciated at 24/96; and, I also believe that multi-channel digital recordings can be apprecitated at 24/96. I'd like to see a convenient means to enjoy multi-channel downloads. Right now the only way I can enjoy such is via multi-channel SACD and Blu-ray discs.
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 9:21 AM Post #10 of 22
   
I may not know a lot about audio, but I am a photographer. I know for a fact that downsampling an image reduces the quality of that image. There is a reason that the technical term for downsampling is "decimation". You lose data. How can you lose data and say that the sound quality is unaffected?

Here's the (very approximate) photographic analogy. You take have a photo that is 6000 pixels wide by 4000 pixels high.  You make a print without resampling.  If you make it big enough, and stand close enough, you'll eventually see individual pixels.  But if you make an 8x10 and hold it at arms length it's impossible to see pixels no matter how good your eyes are.  Now you make a 6x4 print.  Can you see any of the 6000 pixels holding 6x4 at any distance?  If you down-sampled that to image to, say 2000 x 1300 pixels and made a 6x4 print, could you see pixels at any normal distance?  Our hearing is like a 6x4 print.  You can have more data in it, but if you can't see it, what's the point?  You can even increase the dynamic range of the original by making it 16 bits per channel, but a print can't reproduce that dynamic range, not even close, so again, what's the point?  (Don't beat me up over having 16/channel and more res for post processing a photo, that's NOT what we're talking about...we're talking about the viewable print.)
 
Now, that analogy is really bad, because hearing and vision do not work the same way.  You also have a big problem with where that 24/96 file came from in the first place.  The bulk of them, and I mean really most of them, came from some form of up-sampling of a lower res original. You create more data that way but not more perceivable information. It's like taking a 2000x1300 pixel 6x4 print and up-sampling it to 6000x4000 and printing it again.  You couldn't see the pixels in the first place, so what have you done?  When you up-sample an image, do you create more detail?  Nope, you just interpolate between pixels. Again, not the best analogy, but you're a photographer and might make the connection.  
 
But lets not spend any energy beating up the analogy and why it's flawed.  The three things everyone should know about hi-res audio is: 1. most of it is not traceable to a high-res original at all, those that are may still not contain any useful audio information because the original was limited by things like microphone performance, etc.   2. It's almost impossible to deliver ultrasonic information to the listener.  Speakers, even those with "usable response" to 30kHz aren't really doing it, the ultrasonic dispersion pattern is like a pencil beam.  If you do get it to hit your ears, you'll soon move out of the beam.  Everything in the room is an effective ultrasonic absorber too, so there's no spraying it around, no off-axis response.  Headphone/earphone response must follow a non-flat target curve.  What's that curve in the area that we can't hear?  Nobody has any idea.  3.  The the elephant in the room: is it really audibly different?  Scientific support of high-res audibility is extremely thin, questionable, and in many test cases, not repeatable.  
 
So, that high-res data may just be interpolation of low res data, we can't get ultrasonic info to our hears, certainly at any "correct" level even if there was any in the first place, and we can't prove audibility anyway.  
 
So what are "we" "hearing"?  Absent overwhelming audibility data, but present well established understanding of expectation bias and placebo, we're hearing what we want to and expect to hear. 
 
Compare that to the clear and unmistakable audibility of mono vs stereo, for example.  See what I mean?  
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 9:33 AM Post #11 of 22
  I wonder if this is true.
A lot of Apple devices are limited to 16/44
This does not necessarily implies that the Airplay protocol it self  is limited to 16/44 as well
The problem of course is that Apple talks live style, not specs so it is a bit hard to find out what the properties of the Airplay protocol really are.
 
This https://discussions.apple.com/message/12500427#12500427 suggest  that if the streamer is capable of 24/96, Airplay can supply it.

Airplay down-samples for transport over the network.  It's well known, it's 16/44.1, and easily verified by measurement.  What's not always clear is it also depends on the AirPlay device. AirPort Express operates at 16/44 natively, but Apple TV's native audio rate is 16/48 (it's a video device, that's native for audio for video).   It doesn't matter, the resampling is transparent.  
 
There are problems with the discussion quoted.  The same post that claims AirPlay will transmit higher than 16/44 to a device capable claims the DAC in an iPhone or iPad is lower than CD quality.  Well, the second part is not true, and the first part has been widely dispelled.  The point of AirPlay was not bit-perfect high-res streaming...ever...it was a robust streaming technology that could be used to stream to multiple devices.  The last post in that thread sort of got it right, though he mis-evaluated the impact completely. 
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 12:51 PM Post #12 of 22
It's good to know that we are all wasting money on DACs, amps, music files, speakers, headphones, etc. We are all operating under mental defect and only believe the audio sounds better because we spent more money and not because it actually sounds better.  
rolleyes.gif

 
Feb 7, 2017 at 3:06 PM Post #14 of 22
  Thanks
 
Can one do DLNA on OSX?

That would happen with PLEX.  Google it. They have a free version to play with on your LAN forever, or you can pay for access to all your media anywhere there's an internet connection.  I did the one-time by-out, only made sense. PLEX works with PLEX hardware clients, apps, and DLNA client/players. I'll read your iTunes library as is. which is what I do.  I also have separate directories for video/TV and Films, and the Hi-res audio files I've been testing. All of that is outside iTunes.  You can do photos too.  My PLEX server is a 2008 Mac Pro with an aged-out OSX version, streams everything just fine. 
 
Feb 7, 2017 at 3:09 PM Post #15 of 22
  It's good to know that we are all wasting money on DACs, amps, music files, speakers, headphones, etc. We are all operating under mental defect and only believe the audio sounds better because we spent more money and not because it actually sounds better.  
rolleyes.gif

It's good to do your research first.  
 
To be fair, there are quite a few Hi-res files around that do sound better than the "standard" download versions, perhaps even the CD.  But it's not because they're hi-res, it's because they took a different path from the master to the release, and somebody decided to do a better job, something they could actually charge more for.  In that aspect, there's a value to Hi-res audio.  But you can also down-sample it to 16/44 and it sounds just as good.  
 

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