[janieldun]

I've been using the same ATH-M50's for about 5 years, and I feel like it's due for an upgrade. I've been looking into buying a new desktop headphones for my primary uses of music and gaming. As my apartment is normally pretty quiet, I'm looking into buying an openback headphone with a desktop amp. Looking into the forums, I'm a bit intimidated by these expensive amps since the only amp I ever used was a portable headphone amp that came with my ATH-M50. 
 
Specifically, I'm looking into buying the Sennheiser HD650's but I'm not sure if it's the right choice for what I'm looking for - especially if I don't drop that much cash on the amp. Is there a good decision for me without dropping more than $100 on an amp? 
 
I want a richer sound than my current headphones, as I've noticed that the sound can be tinny without the presence of bass. To be specific, I like a warmer, bass sound without muddling the overall sound quality. I used to own a pair of on-ear Bose headphones that was too much bass and made everything sound very deep(?). I'm not very knowledgeable, but I hope browsing the forums will help me out.

 

[PurpleAngel]

What is the over all budget for the headphones/dac/amp?
Can we assume this audio setup is for a computer as the source?

 

[janieldun]

Yes that's correct! To be honest, I haven't really made a budget yet. I'd say anywhere from $400-500 for this whole setup? I'm probably not going to be making it in one big purchase but probably the cans first and then the amp maybe a month later?

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Yes that's correct! To be honest, I haven't really made a budget yet. I'd say anywhere from $400-500 for this whole setup? I'm probably not going to be making it in one big purchase but probably the cans first and then the amp maybe a month later?

 
If your big on clarity, check out the Beyerdynamic T90 (250-Ohm) headphones.
Buy used off eBay.

 

[janieldun]

Looking at a review! Looks like something I'd be interested in, but the little tidbit about the bass worries me. Buying from eBay has always worried me since I was younger, so I stuck to Amazon for the majority of my purchases... However, I'll put this into one of my options that I'll consider. (Which is a pretty short list...) Sony MDR1000x, Sennheiser HD650, and now the Beyerdynamic T90.
 
Slightly bothered by the fact that you can't remove the cable on the T90. Been kind of a hassle to pack the M50 when I take it out. Then again, I don't know if I'll ever take these new headphones out.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Looking at a review! Looks like something I'd be interested in, but the little tidbit about the bass worries me. Buying from eBay has always worried me since I was younger, so I stuck to Amazon for the majority of my purchases... However, I'll put this into one of my options that I'll consider. (Which is a pretty short list...) Sony MDR1000x, Sennheiser HD650, and now the Beyerdynamic T90.
Slightly bothered by the fact that you can't remove the cable on the T90. Been kind of a hassle to pack the M50 when I take it out. Then again, I don't know if I'll ever take these new headphones out.

 
Buy the a used T90 of Amazon, guess you would have a 30 return window.
Might even have a limited manufacturer warranty. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I've been using the same ATH-M50's for about 5 years, and I feel like it's due for an upgrade. I've been looking into buying a new desktop headphones for my primary uses of music and gaming. As my apartment is normally pretty quiet, I'm looking into buying an openback headphone with a desktop amp. Looking into the forums, I'm a bit intimidated by these expensive amps since the only amp I ever used was a portable headphone amp that came with my ATH-M50. 
 
Specifically, I'm looking into buying the Sennheiser HD650's but I'm not sure if it's the right choice for what I'm looking for - especially if I don't drop that much cash on the amp. Is there a good decision for me without dropping more than $100 on an amp? 
 
I want a richer sound than my current headphones, as I've noticed that the sound can be tinny without the presence of bass. To be specific, I like a warmer, bass sound without muddling the overall sound quality. I used to own a pair of on-ear Bose headphones that was too much bass and made everything sound very deep(?). I'm not very knowledgeable, but I hope browsing the forums will help me out.

 
What exactly have you been plugging the M50 into? One reason for why that is is if whatever is driving it has a high output impedance; or if you have badly compressed music (or the bass really isn't there), or the fit is too loose on your head. Or your room isnt as quiet as you think - just because you can't hear any distinct noise sources does not guarantee that the noise floor is actually low. At night here with no distinct noises the noise floor can still be around 30dB. That's like a loud PC fan running full tilt.
 
If isolation happens to be more of the problem than the impedance then an open headphone will be an even bigger problem, considering that, even with the HD650, you'll actually get less bass and less isolation.

 

[janieldun]

I just plug it into my speakers which is just connected to the back of my desktop setup. With just my headphones on without any sound, I can hear my desktop fans run, but I also have very loud fans. Other than that, there's relatively no noise. Maybe I should invest in buying an amp before deciding to pick up a new pair of headphones? 
 
Normally just listen to music via Spotify, but also listen to a few collections in .flac files. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I just plug it into my speakers which is just connected to the back of my desktop setup. With just my headphones on without any sound, I can hear my desktop fans run, but I also have very loud fans. Other than that, there's relatively no noise. Maybe I should invest in buying an amp before deciding to pick up a new pair of headphones? 
 
Normally just listen to music via Spotify, but also listen to a few collections in .flac files. 

 
A Creative Labs Sound Blaster Z sound card is a good value for trying to improve audio quality (speaker & headphone), over most motherboard's on-board audio.
And can decently drive the 250-Ohm Beyer T90 headphones.
 
Senneiser HD600/HD650/HD6XX headphones might be something you would want to use with a decent tube headphone amplifier.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I just plug it into my speakers which is just connected to the back of my desktop setup. 

 
One reason why I asked was to find out what the amp that came with your M50 was but then the more likely reason is the noise, since... 

Originally Posted by janieldun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
  Looking into the forums, I'm a bit intimidated by these expensive amps since the only amp I ever used was a portable headphone amp that came with my ATH-M50. 

 
 

 
With just my headphones on without any sound, I can hear my desktop fans run, but I also have very loud fans. Other than that, there's relatively no noise. 

 

...it doesn't matter if there is no other noise inside the room much less outside of it, you have a noise source right there where the headphone is. In my room on a hot evening, listening at 7pm vs 10pm makes all the difference in the world, and even then, depending on how hot it is, I might still have to endure the gentle hum on my A/C and even, then not immediately. I run it full tilt with an industrial fan throwing cold air everywhere, then kill the fan and reduce the A/C fan to minimum to maintain the cold (that's time to warm up the tubes though).

 

Also why, even with a relatively quiet PC that keeps all fans running at minimum speed (zero on the GPU fans unless it's actually running), I'd still prefer to use a fanless music server over a powerful machine that isn't necessary for that task.

 

 

You don't need new headphones, you need a BeQuiet! Dark Rock Pro 3 or Cryorig H5 Ultimate or heck, a Thermalright Macho Zero CPU cooler and Noctua PWM fans with decent balance in airflow, noise, and static pressure, like the NF-F12 or NF-A14. Maybe a newer, higher efficiency CPU (and motherboard, plus DDR4) and GPU (that has Zero Fan Mode) so they won't require as much airflow to keep the temps down, properly set up so even the chassis fans run at minimum speed until you hit a certain temp threshold.

 

If you're using an AIO, definitely get rid of it. I thought before that having an AIO would be great since I'd have only five fans (2 intake, 1 rad, 2 on the GPU), but as it turns out, having the radiator in the exhaust port means that the fan has to force a lot of air through the rad and also the waffle grill in the rear, which means more whooshing air making noise. I have a Cryorig H7 now and even at full tilt the fan on it is at 25dB and it's deeper inside the case vs having a 38dB AIO on the exhaust port.

 

In other words, I'd strongly suggest you spend money on revamping your computer's cooling system before the headphones. The HD650 already has less bass, and it will just let you hear more of the loud fans, and even less of the less bass it has.

 

If you want to do the headphone first, then the only solution to get more audible bass is to use a headphone with more isolation like the Fender FXA2 or comparable isolation but with more bass like the Superlux HD660. Either way, definitely not like the HD650 or even the LCD-2.
 
 
Quote:

  Maybe I should invest in buying an amp before deciding to pick up a new pair of headphones? 

 

Assuming the output impedance is a problem, that might improve the situation. Might. But if your PC fans are loud enough to be audible when no music is playing you'd still have to run the headphone system at a loud enough level to overcompensate for that noise floor for the entire time you're using it (rather than just going louder for one song at a time as you go), increasing your risk for tinnitus and eventually you won't even be able to enjoy music anymore (or anything that requires that you hear something properly).

 

Think of that as having unprotected sex all the time. Feels great now, just wait until you can't pee without flinching, or wasting away until even a cold kills you. 

 

At the very least a higher impedance IEM might be even more useful than an amp, except such IEMs tend to be expensive. By comparison, unless you're running an R9 295X, you can spend only $35 on a Cryorig H7 (you can spend more on the Dark Rock Pro 3 or H5 Ultimate if you're running higher overclocks on more cores) plus around $60 on three Cougar Vortex fans.
 

 
Normally just listen to music via Spotify, but also listen to a few collections in .flac files. 

 
This won't matter as much as muffling that computer since regardless of the file quality or the gear you have the noise will always be there interfering with your listening.

 

[janieldun]

I have a closed loop liquid cooling to my CPU but didn't have enough money to buy a backplate for my 980. I have my fans running on relatively max RPMs because when I'm on my computer, I'm usually playing games. On the lowest settings or just idling, I can only hear a faint hum of the fans. To be honest, the sound of my fans running doesn't really seem to be an issue for me. Definitely need to upgrade my CPU (currently on an i5 4690k) and get a mobo w/ ddr4 support.
 
I can understand your setup for listening to music, but for me, it's about listening to music while playing games. Don't get me wrong, I love my music, but I'm more looking into buying a desktop amp for headphones or even my Bose Companion 2 (series ii) speakers. I see the Superlux HD660 on sale on gearbest, but it doesn't look like something that could replace my M50... Perhaps with the Creative Lab sound card it would work(?)
 
Sorry, I should have made my intentions more clearly for these headphones.
 
The headphone I want is to be mainly used for gaming, music, and watching videos, movies, etc. I get that that's a lot of different criteria, but overall, I'm just looking for an upgrade from my M50's with a decent amp. I don't want to break the bank, and I'll probably end up buying whatever big purchase I buy in separate purchases. 
 
Thank you for the input though, I can understand why the HD650 might not be a good choice for my current setup given the noisy fans and the obnoxious drone of my refrigerator. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I have a closed loop liquid cooling to my CPU but didn't have enough money to buy a backplate for my 980. I have my fans running on relatively max RPMs because when I'm on my computer, I'm usually playing games. On the lowest settings or just idling, I can only hear a faint hum of the fans. To be honest, the sound of my fans running doesn't really seem to be an issue for me. Definitely need to upgrade my CPU (currently on an i5 4690k) and get a mobo w/ ddr4 support.
I can understand your setup for listening to music, but for me, it's about listening to music while playing games. Don't get me wrong, I love my music, but I'm more looking into buying a desktop amp for headphones or even my Bose Companion 2 (series ii) speakers. I see the Superlux HD660 on sale on gearbest, but it doesn't look like something that could replace my M50... Perhaps with the Creative Lab sound card it would work(?)
Sorry, I should have made my intentions more clearly for these headphones.
The headphone I want is to be mainly used for gaming, music, and watching videos, movies, etc. I get that that's a lot of different criteria, but overall, I'm just looking for an upgrade from my M50's with a decent amp. I don't want to break the bank, and I'll probably end up buying whatever big purchase I buy in separate purchases. 
Thank you for the input though, I can understand why the HD650 might not be a good choice for my current setup given the noisy fans and the obnoxious drone of my refrigerator. 

 
While the Superlux HD660 offers good audio quality for the price.
It has a strong clamp, I had to replace the stock pads with used Beyerdynamic EDT770 V to improve comfort.
Also the coiled cable is very stiff, does not like to be stretched out too much.
 
I would try and talk you into the Takstar pro 80 (Gemini HSR-1000) headphones.
But currently only comes with the version with a built in mic, sold under names like Kingston HyperX Cloud

 

[MisterMudd]

I've been using the same ATH-M50's for about 5 years,

I want a richer sound than my current headphones, as I've noticed that the sound can be tinny without the presence of bass. To be specific, I like a warmer, bass sound without muddling the overall sound quality.

Let me suggest one of my favorite pairing: Philips Fidelio X2 and Bravo Audio V2. Totally rocks, and well within your budget.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Definitely need to upgrade my CPU (currently on an i5 4690k) and get a mobo w/ ddr4 support.

 

That still has a low enough TDP, compared to older AMDs or i7 X99 CPUs. Unless you have it overclocked well past its turbo boost clock.

 

I'd just upgrade the rest of the cooling system, and maybe the GPU if you're still using something older. Get something like a Cryorig H5 Ultimate or BeQuiet! Dark Rock 3. The fans on these are quiet enough, unlike an AIO, you won't have tightly packed fins that require a high pressure fan to spin faster just to force air through that and the waffle exhaust grill. Replace the intake fans with the largest ones that can fit (if you can fit 140mm then use those). If your case has little air restriction (like Fractal Arc series or the Corsair 450D) just use the most quiet airflow-biased fans with just reasonable static pressure (unless you have loads of HDDs that they have to blow through). Something like the Enermax TB Silence; if you have some restrictions on the intake design (like Fractal Define series), use something with a little bit more static pressure, like the Noctua NF-F12, Cryorig 120mm Balanced fan, etc. Then use the quietest airflow fan like this 11dB Enermax for the exhaust running only at minimum speed. Have it ramp up only when the CPU hits 70C. Set your GPU to 5% fan speed until it hits 45C for example.

 

  To be honest, the sound of my fans running doesn't really seem to be an issue for me. Definitely need to upgrade my CPU (currently on an i5 4690k) and get a mobo w/ ddr4 support.

 

Operative word - "seem." Quiet nights seem quiet until you run a dB meter and find the ambient noise to still be at 25dB if not higher. Dedicated speaker listening rooms are waaaaaaaay quieter than that. Obviously the whole point in a headphone system is that you can't seal up a room as much as a dedicated listening room, but you'd want to either reduce the noise (all windows and doors closed, minimum A/C noise if not use a split inverter so the kompressor section isn't hanging by the window, etc) or increase isolation.

 

On the latter, you might want to just get an IEM. If you don't have anything to drive it with a low output impedance, you can use the Soundblaster E5, or just the Fiio A3 in case your motherboard has virtual surround or you don't care for virtual surround (or only use virtual surround encoded into each game).

 

I built a 6600K and GTX 970 rig for my cousin last year in an Enthoo Evolv ITX. Stock 200mm intake fan, one 11dB Enermax exhaust fan, Dark Rock Pro 3 on the CPU. I ran a mild overclock on the CPU (up to its boost clock, basically just making sure it's running at boost all the time instead of leaving the Z170 chip to make that decision), then maxed out the RAM, GPU, and VRAM overclocks. I was getting around 58FPS with TW: Attila on HIGH on nearly every parameter (and Gsync on) with the computer not making any noise audible to me with my headphones on (but audio was muted) in the middle of the TW benchmark. Note this test was smack in the middle of March last year. A/C was running at minimum fan speed but even the PC less than a meter from my head wasn't louder than it. When I booted it up the next day for final checks before pick up, I forgot to switch on the monitor, and for a while I thought it was busted or something, because I could barely hear its fans on idle settings over the ambient noise at 9am on a Saturday.

I'm running an overclocked 2600K at 3.8ghz with max overclock on the DDR3 sticks and my Cryorig H7 doesn't have any problems keeping it cool. Also built a 7600K+GTX 470 rig for my other cousin a few weeks ago and his PC was in the living room with no A/C - he played all of last weekend in searing afternoon heat and the CPU didn't even hit 80C on Total War: Rome II. Granted, he didn't get any siege battles, but TW is the only game out there that will really load the CPU (not even Ashes of the Singularity and GTA V matches TW games on that). In all other games it's more of the GPU heating up the whole interior of the case and the CPU goes along with that.
 

  I have a closed loop liquid cooling to my CPU but didn't have enough money to buy a backplate for my 980.

 

Get an air cooler for the advantages discussed above, and now you wont need a backplate to catch leaks. Not to mention it can only get in the way of the tower cooler. Just check what fits in your case and motherboard of course, although the great bit about Cryorig is that you can print out a plan from their website, fold it up, and then lay down over your CPU to check for clearance.
 

 
I can understand your setup for listening to music, but for me, it's about listening to music while playing games. Don't get me wrong, I love my music, but I'm more looking into buying a desktop amp for headphones or even my Bose Companion 2 (series ii) speakers.

 

I only really posted my set up as a more extreme example of having a low noise floor, electronic or otherwise. If a fanless music server was the only one that worked then I wouldn't bother sharing all my silent PC builds.

 

That said, if you'll play music while listening to games, the thing is your attention span is split anyway, so honestly I wouldn't blow that much money on the headphones for music since...well...your attention isn't on the music anyway. On top of all the at the HD650 has even less bass and less isolation, so overall, probably the worst thing you can do with your money for what you need.

 

Add to that, what motherboard/soundcard are you running? If you're running hardware DSP chip virtual surround, then that affects the music as much as the games, so that could be contributing to the lack of bass. It's pushing the bass instruments farther out from you, and coupled with the game audio, is just masking it even more. Think of it as slapping on too many toppings into a burger that you barely taste the beef patty.
 

 
I see the Superlux HD660 on sale on gearbest, but it doesn't look like something that could replace my M50... Perhaps with the Creative Lab sound card it would work(?)

 
It has more bass and at 150ohms is safer to use with an internal soundcard.
 

 
Sorry, I should have made my intentions more clearly for these headphones.
 
The headphone I want is to be mainly used for gaming, music, and watching videos, movies, etc. I get that that's a lot of different criteria...

 

Technically speaking those aren't "different" criteria in terms of making for totally different headphones. A reasonably smooth and wide response curve works for music, movies, and games, and if anything, music will require better imaging since Crossfeed isn't going to make for a lot of magic for 2ch as much as virtual surround does for movies and games. And in your particular use case however isolation is even more important considering your PC isn't that quiet. That said, even if you stick with the M50 or any closed headphone, muffling that computer is still going to be of some benefit. That doesn't even come at the cost of cooling performance either - since my Cryorig H7 is quieter than my old AIO (25dB vs 38dB at full tilt), plus the tower cooler smack inside the case instead of at any fan slot, the Cryorig fan running full tilt isn't even as audible as the AIO at 60% fan speed.
 

  ...but overall, I'm just looking for an upgrade from my M50's with a decent amp. I don't want to break the bank, and I'll probably end up buying whatever big purchase I buy in separate purchases. 

 

HD660 and Strix Soar wouldn't cost over $150. Spend at least $50 on the Cryorig H7 and a very quiet 120mm (or 140mm, if it fits) for the exhaust; maybe some Enermax TB Silence or Cougar Vortex for the intake.
 

 
While the Superlux HD660 offers good audio quality for the price.
It has a strong clamp, I had to replace the stock pads with used Beyerdynamic EDT770 V to improve comfort.

 
The headband and gimbals can be bent - flattened out a bit on top and the gimbals flattened a bit, then the headband bent inwards at the gimbals. That basically gets a similar shape as the current HiFiMan headband designs.
 
Stock shape out of the box to maximize space, ie, more boxes fit in each shipping crate.

 
After bending. Note the flatter top of the headband and flatter gimbals, and how far apart the earcups are at rest. You're basically pulling them apart less when you put them on. I have 3rd party DT770 pads on them now.

 
 

Let me suggest one of my favorite pairing: Philips Fidelio X2 and Bravo Audio V2. Totally rocks, and well within your budget.

 
He will then hear more of his noisy computer and less of the bass through those open back earcups.