[El Duderino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cool_Torpedo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Finally a post that makes sense. Thanks for writing it up mate. I suppose this site needs a sticky easy to find and read by everyone to prevent these threads repeating again and again. Nice to meet a coleague over here Rgrds

Thanks for your comment, much appreciated. I agree...there needs to be a definitive "tinnitus" sticky.

Great to hear from a fellow Head-Fi'ing ENT from across the pond!

 

[ken5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by navmau /img/forum/go_quote.gif Otherwise, why would performers have changed to IEMs from floor wedges!!! The fact is, whether you are blocking out noise as a performer or a commuter on loud trains/buses/planes, IEMs block ambient noise, thereby allowing you to lower the volume of the music.

It certainly makes sense as a performer to use IEM's. The noise on stage is certainly LOUD and ear plugs are a good thing. Plus... it is very hard to hear out of monitors depending on the music and instruments. So wearing the IEM's is the lesser of the two evils. Certainly if one can turn down the music more while on a bus that is a good thing too.

My personal experience is that I am listening to the music much louder with my triple fi pros than I ever was on my ipod ear buds. How do I know? For one thing when I put the ear buds in now I can go up to max on the ipod and it sounds softer than the triple fi's, and before the triple fi's I NEVER went above 5/8th on the volume slider. Second is that my ears never hurt with the ear buds, can'r really say the same thing about the triple fis. Not sure if it is the volume or the pressure.

A last observation... while putting in the triple fi's with the volume on sometimes the perceived volume goes to zero till the pressure equalizes. And what makes the base and volume sound better with a good fit? Is it that since the ear is completely sealed the ear drum movement is exaggerated? I don't know for sure if these things are harmful, but I wonder!

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jelle Schrijver /img/forum/go_quote.gif And then there is that issue with the Fletcher–Munson curves that basically says that the lower the listening level, the narrower the heard bandwidth. It is not a far stretch that it translates into perceived less volume. And the curve is especially bad news when your a bassjunky and want to hear the sublows. That means your at 70dB SPL just to hear sublow and that's with a ideal headphone that is linear (no bass roll off, which unfortunately almost all headphones have). So in the real world this would translate to even higher SPL's to compensate for the bass rolloff. I have made this suggestion for a smartDrive EQ in headamps. I've also send an email to Tensionlab to see if there interested in implementing this technology.

I think most IEM manufactures these day (except for Ety) have compensate the problem with non-linear volume perception by bumping the bass and treble freq. resp. to appear as sounding linear to the user.

 

[Assorted]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif D'oh, its all about 'Sound Pressure Levels'. No type of headphone is any worse than any other when XdB is being processed by the brain. In fact any noise in general. Standing beside a jack-hammer in the street for 4 hours thats pumping 100dB into your ears is just as damaging as listening to IEMs at 100dB for 4 hours. Your ears process sound, they don't know of its source.

That's not the point. I don't get tinnitus on 80 dB for half an hour with full sized headphones, while what sounded quieter than 80 dB using my previous SE420, I got tinnitus within 15 minutes.

How do I define how something sounds "like" 80 dB? The perception of the space it occupies. The quieter the sound is, the more far away it seems, just as it seems bigger and closer when it's louder.

This doesn't apply to higher end headphones plus gear such as the GS1000, where it does an excellent job of being perceived large without the extra volume. I'm speaking strictly of non-custom IEMs. Maybe custom IEMs are better in this regards, but they'd have to be dramatically different from top line IEMs to not have the same loudness effect I was speaking of.

 

[shigzeo]

i think hearsay is probably on both sides of the argument but here where we have iem sellers and people who have sworn by them for years, it is hard to gainsay them. i have used them for 5 years if you consider 2 years with canals, not iems.

i always thought it was safe as i would use the volume less but when sealing out outside noise, there has to be someway that the ear (i know this is not scientific) is intent only on that sound. that and there is no filter. with loud concerts you are at massive risk, but at least there is air inbetween your ears and the sound. also, your body responds to the sound and you feel it. with iems, you barely have any sensation of the sound other than volume, so it is probable that we listen to much higher volumes than we think. that and, iems are proabably by way of having no filter air for instance, louder even at the same volume at the same sentivitity at the same impedence than buds or phones ever could be.

a doctor metioned even screens on ipod buds helped with hearing loss. [edit: i should have said with protecting the ears]

as for hearing aids. i think they would not induce hearing loss. the person has lost so much hearing already that the iem/hearing aid is no longer able to really damage the persons hearing. the person who listens to them undoubtedly has them switched to very high levels of volume to overcome hearing impairment anyway.

the whole debate, especially from iem/ear piece manufacturers does seem unfair to include as of course they must protect their investment: our hearing loss or thier future business : our graduate hearing degradation.

i love iems and canals: have used for 5 years. i listen to headphone much more than iems but when i really listen to my canals/iems that is when i notice the problems. i am used to iems: 5 years.

i never have used my ipod or d2 or meizu at high volumes: but, i have gained tinnitus which i know i did not hae before. it was a very sudden change actually.

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assorted /img/forum/go_quote.gif That's not the point. I don't get tinnitus on 80 dB for half an hour with full sized headphones, while what sounded quieter than 80 dB using my previous SE420, I got tinnitus within 15 minutes.

Yes, it is. You obviously do not understand. Hearing damage occurs when ANY audio is played too loudly, the effects get more severe the longer the duration.


Tinnitus is an effect of hearing damage, if you've got it, bad luck. It coming on might be triggered by anything.

My Mom gets it whilst lying in bed.

 

[steviebee]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif My Mom gets it whilst lying in bed.

er, you may want to rephrase that....

 

[Chri5peed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by steviebee /img/forum/go_quote.gif er, you may want to rephrase that....

Why? Has no one ever told you anything?

 

[steviebee]

Eh?

I meant MUM not MOM!

 

[Chri5peed]

Oh right!

I spell it 'Mom' to save confusion. I once said the 'Queen Mum' on MSN and the guy I was talking too, had no clue what I meant.

Its only 1 letter! Actually saying, 'Mother', that cannot be misinterpreted.

 

[steviebee]

 

[scompton]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tinnitus is an effect of hearing damage, if you've got it, bad luck. It coming on might be triggered by anything.

True, I get it whenever pollen gets real bad, also if I'm around dogs or cats too much.

 

[Chri5peed]

^ Tinnitus is the end result of hearing damage, not what you get during.


If you've contracted it, you can get it anytime, at any severity or sometimes forever.

Folks who have it always are not constsntly listening to loud music.

 

[El Duderino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif i think hearsay is probably on both sides of the argument but here where we have iem sellers and people who have sworn by them for years, it is hard to gainsay them. i have used them for 5 years if you consider 2 years with canals, not iems. i always thought it was safe as i would use the volume less but when sealing out outside noise, there has to be someway that the ear (i know this is not scientific) is intent only on that sound. that and there is no filter. with loud concerts you are at massive risk, but at least there is air inbetween your ears and the sound. also, your body responds to the sound and you feel it. with iems, you barely have any sensation of the sound other than volume, so it is probable that we listen to much higher volumes than we think. that and, iems are proabably by way of having no filter air for instance, louder even at the same volume at the same sentivitity at the same impedence than buds or phones ever could be. a doctor metioned even screens on ipod buds helped with hearing loss. as for hearing aids. i think they would not induce hearing loss. the person has lost so much hearing already that the iem/hearing aid is no longer able to really damage the persons hearing. the person who listens to them undoubtedly has them switched to very high levels of volume to overcome hearing impairment anyway. the whole debate, especially from iem/ear piece manufacturers does seem unfair to include as of course they must protect their investment: our hearing loss or thier future business : our graduate hearing degradation. i love iems and canals: have used for 5 years. i listen to headphone much more than iems but when i really listen to my canals/iems that is when i notice the problems. i am used to iems: 5 years. i never have used my ipod or d2 or meizu at high volumes: but, i have gained tinnitus which i know i did not hae before. it was a very sudden change actually.

I laughed loudly after reading this. Consistent nonsense that goes against every piece of peer-reviewed science looking at hearing loss.

"With IEMS, you barely have any sensation of the sound other than volume, so it is probable that we listen to much higher volumes than we think". Uhhh, no, your perception of the volume is exactly that...perception of volume...you don't require additional senses to delineate how "loud" your music is. Decibels are decibels, whether its coming from 100 feet away or 2 centimeters away.

Your comment on hearing aids alone makes it perfectly clear that you understand little to nothing about how hearing aids work, let alone the in ear canal types.

I have no issue discussing hearing loss if it is backed up by some sort of evidence rather than just hearsay. As far as the doctor who mentioned that "even screens on ipod buds helped with hearing loss"...my advice buddy, is to find a new doctor.

 

[Chri5peed]

Proves some doctors are pretty clueless.

My GP knew nothing of my disease until he read about it.


Being a doctor doesn't make you an audio specialist.
...shame obviously knowledge=/= common-sense.