[Chri5peed]

D'oh, its all about 'Sound Pressure Levels'.

No type of headphone is any worse than any other when XdB is being processed by the brain.


In fact any noise in general. Standing beside a jack-hammer in the street for 4 hours thats pumping 100dB into your ears is just as damaging as listening to IEMs at 100dB for 4 hours.


Your ears process sound, they don't know of its source.

 

[ClieOS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif well all i know is that at small volumes, and since i started using iems exclusively, i have suffered tinnitus and ear warbling, ear aches etc. the common sense should be that something that small and that near the eardrum for long periods should be lethal. probably is

My common sense tells me that small thing that places near eardrum for long period doesn't automatically equal to lethality, at least I don't remember the ENT specialist told my grandfather that his hearing aid will kill him. Some people get used to the feeling of using IEM (properly, I might add), some don't. I have never experience tinnitus, ear warbling, or any ear related symptom dues to the use of IEM as my main music listening instrument for the last 4 years. I guess there are people who will never get used to IEM, but I don't think IEM are necessary 'bad' - at least not to me.

 

[birdsong]

Well, yes and no. It's likely that the frequency of the sound can influence how damaging it is, e.g. 100dB of 20 Hz is different than 100dB of 20kHz. There are certainly resonance considerations as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif D'oh, its all about 'Sound Pressure Levels'. No type of headphone is any worse than any other when XdB is being processed by the brain. In fact any noise in general. Standing beside a jack-hammer in the street for 4 hours thats pumping 100dB into your ears is just as damaging as listening to IEMs at 100dB for 4 hours. Your ears process sound, they don't know of its source.

 

[Chri5peed]

I think the confusion comes because it is pretty easy to just turn up the volume to dangerous levels and you're much more likely to listen for extended periods.

Unless you're a Rocket Scientist, standing beside a roaring jet engine is going to be over a short time.

 

[El Duderino]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes, iems are 'bad' for ears im quite sure. i got tinnitus after using them exclusively for 3 months. that at volumes of 7/50 to 10/50 on the d2 or a little more on the ipod and when i had the um2, even less. but im surprised that no one has come in and lambasted the op yet. i made a thread some time ago questioning whether iems were good or not, admittedly with probably poor science to the thead but all i got was, 'that is stupid' or 'iems are good for your ears' etc. well all i know is that at small volumes, and since i started using iems exclusively, i have suffered tinnitus and ear warbling, ear aches etc. the common sense should be that something that small and that near the eardrum for long periods should be lethal. probably is

There are countless comments like this that are based on hearsay and provide scant anecdotal "evidence". They don't necessarily help. A couple of comments:

1) The tinnitus experienced after using an IEM may not be directly related to the actual IEM at all. Listening intently to music for several months straight tends to make one focus on sounds that they would have never noticed before...including tinnitus. Furthermore, the anxiety of expecting an IEM to damage your hearing may itself induce tinnitus. Finally, patients presenting to an otology clinic will often reference new onset tinnitus and relate it to some recent event that may or may not have had anything to do with actually inducing the tinnitus.

2) Multiple threads have included comments that because an IEM sits close to your eardrum, it must therefore be dangerous. This is absolute nonsense. Sure, an IEM could be considered dangerous because it could potentially scratch your ear canal and lead to an infection. But, as far as actual hearing damage--and this has been reiterated countless times on this forum--the primary factor is without a doubt the duration of exposure to sound and the intensity of that sound. It does not matter where the sound is coming from, be it an IEM or a headphone, but only the dB level arriving at the eardrum. Any sound source, IEM or otherwise, will damage your hearing if listened to loudly and for a prolonged period.

3) Finally, most modern completely-in-canal (CIC) hearing aids are inserted into the external auditory canal and are a very short distance from the ear drum. They stay there for long periods of time. These do not induce hearing loss as countless studies have shown. Therefore, IEMs--which usually do not insert as deeply--aren't going to cause hearing loss simply because they are inserted into your ear canal.

Thanks. Rant over. I hope this helps (I am an otolaryngologist if that makes any difference at all).

El Duderino

 

[Cool_Torpedo]

Finally a post that makes sense. Thanks for writing it up mate.
I suppose this site needs a sticky easy to find and read by everyone to prevent these threads repeating again and again.

Nice to meet a coleague over here

Rgrds

 

[Kel Ghu]

I am not sure of what you guys call Tinnitus. But I can hear a high pitched sound since I'm a little kid (I used to call it "interior sound"). But I only hear it when I am focusing on it or after going to a place with very loud music (like clubs or concerts) or by listening to a second of white or pink noise. But I usually don't hear it because my mind is somewhere else. Though I heard it for 4 days after reading another thread here about Tinnitus! I hated that thread and I thought I would hear it continuously for the rest of my live... But again, with time, I forget about it... Though right now I hear it... Damn thread...

But in my experience, I get more tinnitus from full-sized headphones than IEM.

 

[Chri5peed]

Lol, think of this.

If IEMs are so inherently dangerous from their form-factor, i.e. being deep in your ear-canal.
Why do hard of hearing people get hearing-aids which look and fit pretty much like IEMs?

 

[Schweiz]

I've had tinnitis for many years and only recently started using iem's & headphones.

My experience has been the opposite of what some people here are experiencing.

Using IEM's regularly for 6 months has had no perceived effect on my tinnitis or hearing. Even at occasional, moderately high volumes or extended listening sessions. I got my first full size cans a few weeks ago. I get a dramatically louder "ringing in the ears" after each usage, even at quieter volumes. Strange.

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by shigzeo /img/forum/go_quote.gif but im surprised that no one has come in and lambasted the op yet. i made a thread some time ago questioning whether iems were good or not, admittedly with probably poor science to the thead but all i got was, 'that is stupid' or 'iems are good for your ears' etc.

If you think that those are the only responses that you received, then you should go back and re-read the thread. There were a number of posts similar to the very informative post above from El Duderino, and if I remember correctly, I also cited to a study of average listening volumes of various types of headphones including IEMs that supported the hypothesis that IEMs are less likely than open headphones to cause hearing damage because the average listening volume with IEMs is lower.

 

[Elluzion]

nv.

 

[navmau]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chri5peed /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lol, think of this. If IEMs are so inherently dangerous from their form-factor, i.e. being deep in your ear-canal. Why do hard of hearing people get hearing-aids which look and fit pretty much like IEMs?

I agree!

Otherwise, why would performers have changed to IEMs from floor wedges!!! The fact is, whether you are blocking out noise as a performer or a commuter on loud trains/buses/planes, IEMs block ambient noise, thereby allowing you to lower the volume of the music.

Thats not to say that people out there still blast their ears with IEMs, there is nothing but trouble ahead for them!!!

 

[Jelle Schrijver]

there is a discussion around here about this subject.
earbuds damage ears faster than headphones (summery)
Article over at headwize

The problem is that a (custom) IEM isolates you from your surrounding so effectively, that there is no reference about how loud you're listening. That's a scary thought. Also Ultrasone claims by using to project sound in your pinna, (using your complete ear), the sound is perceived louder than it actually is, but you are in fact playing on a lower level. And thus the IEM is set louder to get a perceived volume.

Also, there is a strange feature going on in your ears that has something to do with perceived sound-quality. When your ears exceed a certain threshold in noiselevel, the hairs in your cochlea that makes it possible for you to hear are gone lay down to reduce the sensitivity. For most people, this makes it sound better because in fact, your hearing less (detail). I've noticed (as a musician) that on better sounding amps, i cold lower the volume and still enjoy the sound. And on bad sounding amps, i would increase volume to enjoy the sound and to "hear" the delicate overtones imbedded in my instrument signal that makes my enjoy my instrument.

And then there is that issue with the Fletcher–Munson curves that basically says that the lower the listening level, the narrower the heard bandwidth. It is not a far stretch that it translates into perceived less volume. And the curve is especially bad news when your a bassjunky and want to hear the sublows. That means your at 70dB SPL just to hear sublow and that's with a ideal headphone that is linear (no bass roll off, which unfortunately almost all headphones have). So in the real world this would translate to even higher SPL's to compensate for the bass rolloff. I have made this suggestion for a smartDrive EQ in headamps. I've also send an email to Tensionlab to see if there interested in implementing this technology.

So in conclusion, the better the SQ, the more happy your gone be at low soundlevels. And look out for signs of ringing sensations (your where way to loud) and listening fatigue (your where listening pretty loud and/or have a bad SQ setup) . And ALWAYS listen with both IEM's in your ear. If you put one out, the perceived loudness drops significantly. You will always turn your volume way up to correct this. Biggest mistake made by musician using IEM on stage. And maybe the Tensionlab headamp could be a great help to determine your listening level.

And he, when you finally become deaf, you can always switch to a Neurophone

And why not get the good people of UE involved, because it's there job and are way into this kind of information and could contribute a lot of good well t thought through info.

 

[Elluzion]

does the ultrasone technology actually work?

 

[Techran]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elluzion /img/forum/go_quote.gif does the ultrasone technology actually work?

I will vouch for them, yes it does but to a certain extent. Also, you must have the Ultrasone's on your ear right in order to get the "full effect." There is a thread on how to properly position them on your ear for the effect to occur. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/the.../index291.html

I find that if I position them like this, my ear and eardrum feel less fatigued over time. Ultrasone's are VERY healthy headphones to boot for they do not shoot the sound straight into your eardrum. You WILL NOT get a sense of ringing in your ear if you listen at louder or reasonable volumes with these bad boys IMO. I haven't had a headache yet...

Happy listening,

-Tech