[priest]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif The Titan wouldn't be on the radar for an audiophile, but it is a wonderful can for the undiscriminating user who wants a nice-looking and rugged option with great sound for a great price.

This is exactly how I took the HeadRoom review and Top Ten placement for the Titan, but I get the sense from reading this string that I may have gotten the wrong message. Now I'm just confused.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've read the 'what we think' passage concerning the Titan on the HeadRoom website. Not much there really reflects what you so aptly wrote above. No impressions were qualified or the relative terms outlined in terms of context of use vs performance. You mentioned above, a very significant and to be considered category of listener and how well the Titans would fit in. I agree that they would likely be a great option with *relatively* great sound for the purpose. However, this isn't the impression given on the site. I think that this is what baka1969 is indicating. If you're going to encapsulate 10 best cans for different user types and circumstances, this should be clearly stated with each review.

I wish there was a logical response to you comments, but there isn't. What there is, is just the reality of real time and and it's limits. The time before the new web launch was chock full of doing things that had to be done to turn on a completely new web site. Practically speaking, we simply didn't have time to re-write all the product copy, and didn't have time to do comprehensive evaluation. So we did the best we could on short notice.

What I wrote above in my previous post about the Titans is how our view of the Titans specifically and the headphone world generally is developing as we try to figure out how to position HeadRoom in the broader world. But it's true that our pens have not caught up to out thoughts.

It's not going to happen overnight either, because now is the time to not be in a rush when it comes to product evaluation; now is the time to install a really good product evaluation system that covers all the bases for our web presence and pushes all the way through to delivering quality advice for customers. I'm working VERY hard on that at the moment, and I'm in it for the long haul.

A good example of how we're updating our web can be seen with noise cancelling headphones. In brief, first I set up a listening test with a group of headphones, mostly this is just bringing all the cans togather at a listening station, printing out sets of measured data for each headphone, and printing out some evaluation forms we're developing. Then I start grabbing sales folk and others who help with listening tests and get them to sit down to do the evaluation. After I've got enough evaluations (3-5) I then total up all the scores on a spreadsheet. Once I've got a bead on the gist of the evaluation I talk to Jamey and/or Jorge with what I think happened; and we agree on the story. Then I do an edit pass on all the web site copy which gets sent around for approval and then posted, and I write a blog on what happened which again does an edit and approval pass before posting.

My current rate is about one product per day, but it usually comes in the form of a test of four or five cans that takes a week to get through. Obviously it's going to take some time to get to all the products and have a web site that contains only copy which has gone through this procedure. During that time, we're going to be open to criticism about website opinion being unbalanced ... all I can say is I'm sorry, we're trying.


... hm ...

Maybe the other thing worth saying is that I don't see anybody else working this hard on developing really solid advice for customers. Measurement, multiple person evaluations, both commerce site copy and comparative review copy in an editorial format (blog), that's a lot of work.

I really hope it's seen as good service to our customers; I really hope you guys will appreciate our best efforts and not fault us too heavily when we're imperfect; and I really hope all this hard work is rewarded with orders because the alternative is mindless copy from J&R or B&H, and pretty products packed in plastic bubbles that underperform and get away with it.


... ahh well, I gotta get back to work ... Have you heard the new PX 100-II and PX 200-II from Sennheiser? You should!

Look for a blog post soon.

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif I wish there was a logical response to you comments, but there isn't. What there is, is just the reality of real time and and it's limits. .............

I fully understand all you said and you do have my sympathetic ear where it's all concerned. While I am being critical, I don't wish for HeadRoom to feel that it is from the standpoint of being critical just for the hell of it, or being critical from the POV of one who supports another organisation with a wish to give bad press. It's all coming from a position of support and a wish for the company to succeed, especially when it chooses to offer more to customers than just being a typical dealer for headphones and related gear. Major change can either make or break so ..... all the best.

 

[priest]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyll Hertsens /img/forum/go_quote.gif Maybe the other thing worth saying is that I don't see anybody else working this hard on developing really solid advice for customers. Measurement, multiple person evaluations, both commerce site copy and comparative review copy in an editorial format (blog), that's a lot of work. I really hope it's seen as good service to our customers; I really hope you guys will appreciate our best efforts and not fault us too heavily when we're imperfect; and I really hope all this hard work is rewarded with orders because the alternative is mindless copy from J&R or B&H, and pretty products packed in plastic bubbles that underperform and get away with it.

Hugely appreciated, and causes me to buy most often from HeadRoom, and recommend you to all my friends, even though J&R and B&H sometimes will have the better price. Keep up the great work and invaluable service.

 

[baka1969]

I've avoided this thread for a little while. I really wanted to see how it would progress and how Headroom would react. Tyll is a nice guy. He's also smart. I see he words his posts very carefully.

I believe that Headroom is trying to expand to the growing 'pseudophile' market. The one more driven by the marketing of audiophile sound than the actual pursuit of sound quality. The consumer group that would be more enticed by celeb endorsements and eye catching looks than a truly quality product.

Maybe it's easier to feed the masses what they'll easily (and often blindly) purchase than it is to take that same customer and teach them the difference between a high quality product and one of lesser quality?

Tyll discussed his teenaged daughter who preferred the Skullcandy... Saying he (we) shouldn't shove a superior product down her (or anyone else's) throat and force it upon her. While I agree we shouldn't force the issue, but maybe teaching what to listen for, explaining the difference, asking (for example) her to invest an extra minute to listen a little more carefully, maybe, just maybe she'll learn appreciate the superior product. Eventually wanting it more than the pretty pink one.

There are many teen Head-Fi'ers that have moved beyond the consumer-grade stuff peddled out to the masses and covet the audiophile products Headroom grew from. Ask any teen and they'll tell you that music is their life. Well, if that's true, they're being fed junk. They believe the hype. I think they WANT better but just haven't been taught or shown the real deal.

Is Head-Fi or Headroom going to change the world?. Maybe not. But maybe Head-Fi has in it's own way? I think Headroom started off trying to change the world. Will they continue to pursue that? We'll see...

Ross

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Ross.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baka1969 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Tyll is a nice guy. He's also smart. I see he words his posts very carefully.

Quote:

I believe that Headroom is trying to expand to the growing 'pseudophile' market. The one more driven by the marketing of audiophile sound than the actual pursuit of sound quality. The consumer group that would be more enticed by celeb endorsements and eye catching looks than a truly quality product. Maybe it's easier to feed the masses what they'll easily (and often blindly) purchase than it is to take that same customer and teach them the difference between a high quality product and one of lesser quality?

First, lemme give you a very cruel answer: We're a business, and the customer is always right. Who are we to stop a customer from buying whatever they want?

.... and ...

Who is in a better position to act as an educator HeadRoom or the Head-Fi enthusiasts? You are, of course, because consumers will trust you much more easily than they'll trust us. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

Quote:

Tyll discussed his teenaged daughter who preferred the Skullcandy... Saying he (we) shouldn't shove a superior product down her (or anyone else's) throat and force it upon her. While I agree we shouldn't force the issue, but maybe teaching what to listen for, explaining the difference, asking (for example) her to invest an extra minute to listen a little more carefully, maybe, just maybe she'll learn appreciate the superior product. Eventually wanting it more than the pretty pink one.

I hate to say it, but I did that, and in the end she still claimed the Skullcandy's were preferable. It's not so easy to educate or change people's minds (especially teens), and if you try too hard you're likely to alienate them.

Quote:

There are many teen Head-Fi'ers that have moved beyond the consumer-grade stuff peddled out to the masses and covet the audiophile products Headroom grew from. Ask any teen and they'll tell you that music is their life. Well, if that's true, they're being fed junk. They believe the hype. I think they WANT better but just haven't been taught or shown the real deal.

Some will "get it", but I don't think that the average teen Head-Fier is the average teen... not by a long shot.

One very real problem is that the music they want to listen to is terribly degraded in quality by audio compression (not MP3 compression, but audio compression --- read here for more details) during the mastering process anyway. Doesn't matter how good the gear is if the original material sux.

Quote:

Is Head-Fi or Headroom going to change the world?. Maybe not. But maybe Head-Fi has in it's own way? I think Headroom started off trying to change the world. Will they continue to pursue that? We'll see...

I think both have rolls to play, and while HeadRoom's first job is to make money, we can't really do that unless people are willing to recognize that there's value in buying quality product. We just have to be a bit gentle working them into the fold ... slowly but surely.

Thanks again for your post, Ross.

 

[baka1969]

Hi Tyll,

Sadly, I know all about today's audio crapression of music due to (very) poorly produced and mixed... umm... stuff. I believe it's partially due to the mp3 era or iPod effect. I think superior listening equpiment can help to change that culture. For less than the price of an iPod, a Total Airhead and Grado SR-60 can be strapped to said iPod and kids can hear how terrible their music quality sounds. If enough people can tell the difference and more people demand better production values, the artists and producers will take more care into making the music without losing the artist's intent.

If we sell to the lowest common denominator, then we'll just perpetuate the degradation of the music recording industry.

The good news is there is more choices of excellent equipment than ever before. But is it getting lost in the world of consumer-grade junk being marketed as audiophile quality? This is partially why I have issue with Skullcandy being included in a list such as Headroom's Ten Best. Headroom, who grew from true audiophile ranks. Using that credibility to market consumer-grade, mass market products to turn a dollar. Remember, my contention is the method not the practice.

I'm not ready to give up teaching teens how to tell the difference between what's quality and what's junk.

Ross

 

[jjsoviet]

Well, the output can be only as good as the input. Maybe it isn't so great afterall to push high-quality gear when all kids today have crappy mp3-quality music, that combined with their relatively poor music tastes today.

Ross, I agree that people should be educated in this phenomenon of music degradation... then they will demand better quality music, and in effect, demand better quality gear as well.

 

[esien]

you have to be one or the other

 

[aimlink]

Quote:

Originally Posted by baka1969 /img/forum/go_quote.gif I'm not ready to give up teaching teens how to tell the difference between what's quality and what's junk. Ross

What's matters and what really doesn't? What's an obsession vs what isn't? What's adequate and what isn't? What's enjoyable and what isn't? What's valuable and what isn't?

The one I like is about what matters vs what really doesn't. These teens will likely be able to teach you some detail and appreciation about some aspect of life that you hardly take notice of or appreciate since so much of your attention is being paid to music quality. It's just your personal interest.

I detect just a bit of arrogance and opinionatedness on this issue. It's so easy to slip into it.

 

[Tyll Hertsens]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aimlink /img/forum/go_quote.gif What's matters and what really doesn't? What's an obsession vs what isn't? What's adequate and what isn't? What's enjoyable and what isn't? What's valuable and what isn't?

Two stories:

As we were moving into a new space years ago, I was painting walls in one bare room and there was a cheap boom box playing Muddy Waters in another bare room a coupla doorways down the hall. I found myself bobbing my head along with the music. All of a sudden I sort of stepped out of myself and realized I was completely involved with the music ... from a boom box ... in another room ... with about 100% reverberant sound, 0% direct.

Second story:

I'm sitting around a table with about 8 of the writers from SoundStage. I ask the question: "Does the fidelity of reproduction have a direct effect on the qualy of the art reproduced?" The answer, to a man (they were all male), was NO.

We should not elivate the contribution of what we do to the level of the Art of Music. Good reproduction is sort of like listening to music in a Lay-Z-Boy chair instead of the wooden stool of cheap audio gear. Yes, the Lay-Z-Boy is more comfortable and enjoyable, and brings something to the listening experience ... but it's not the music. It could even be argued that if you can clear your mind of the discomfort of the wooden stool as you listen, your listening experience may be even better than that of a person bringing the cuddly chair experience into the listening experience.




Regardless, I would argue that our opportunity to educate folks on the benefits of quality reproduction runs a distant second to our obligation to find products that match well with what the consumer finds valuable. It's not our lob to change the values of customers as much as it is serve those values.

If there's anyone who has the obligation to change the values of consumers it's the enthusiasts themselves. You are the ones the consumer trusts, you have the opportunity to evangelize. Don't get me wrong, we will do some educating, (the blog is a good example) but it can't be job one for us.



FWIW I have to tell you that we had a walk-in customer on Friday. Young guy, maybe 25, wanted a headphone for hip-hop. He ended up asking to purchase some Skullcandy Skullcrushers.

So I walked up to him and said, "Holy No-Fi dude, those are the worst headphones on the wall dummy. If you had any taste at all you'd buy these Grado SR60s!"



Of course I didn't.

I didn't say a thing. I just walked back into my office and ...

. But it's not my money. It's not my job to tell the guy what to like. It's our job to serve the customer and their values.

 

[jjsoviet]

So, in the end... it's their loss, not yours. They did not do the research, and as a result, got the products we normally don't buy. Hey, consumer education's at fault here I guess.

 

[jefemeister]

Sorry in advance for a long post. Skip towards the bottom for my actual recommendations.

This thread is very interesting. We as audiophiles find ourselves at a crossroads. Do we covet sound quality above all else? A few years ago I would have said yes. Today I am not so sure. Convenience, form, and function have won me over.

Headroom and Head-Fi were both founded with the goal of bringing our hobby to the masses. Today that goal has been achieved. To me, the most wonderful part of this is that we have more young people in the hobby that are really getting interested in sound quality. As someone who used design equipment for this industry, I can confirm that our hobby would wither up and die without this influx of young people. It is something to be praised.
It is well known that these new demographics--younger people and casual listeners--require more than just top sound quality. Design is important. Usability is important. For Headroom to ignore this would be folly. We will lose these people if we are perceived as snooty.

However, now that we have attracted a wider audience it is imperative that we strive to educate them as well. We still need to delicately move people away from the mass-market. This is a line that Headroom has to tip-toe. Recall that even Head-fi was very reluctant at first to split out computer audio from it's Sources forum.

Tyll, I have a few suggestions for the site.

As someone else mentioned, it would be nice to rate the headphones on a couple different scales: sound quality, comfort, ease of use (amplification), durability, apperance, etc. Then allow the customer to search the database with ranges for these criteria. Check out the Bluenile website as an example. They make it very easy for a customer to pick out a loose diamond by setting ranges on clarity, cut, size, price, etc. They also do a great job on education.

It seems you could also rank a headphone for the various users. Users could be: audiophile, DJ, student, child, casual listener, gym rat, fashionista, etc. So for each headphone you would have a little icon for each user and maybe a color or numerical ranking next to each.

I think both of these items would help us reach both our goals of attracting new people and then converting them. If they are given the opportunity to weight the various factors individually we might be able to sway them a little from cool cosmetics to sound quality.

 

[aimlink]

I don't know about you guys, but whenever I'm with others who witness my personal interest in Headphone related Hi-Fi, I'm so deeply aware that it's just my personal interest and that it doesn't make me enlightened and they somehow, not. Sure, I invite them to take a listen, they appreciate the sound, but I've yet had one willing to follow through and purchase a great set of cans. They're just not interested. I know them well enough to see that they have other interests which aren't in alignment with mine. I don't play golf, I'm not into home theatre equipment and movies, I don't chase after women since I'm married and with children.... you get the drift?

Most of all, I have a Hi-Fi heritage, in that I grew up with a father who loved good sound production. I grew to similarly appreciate this sound, though my siblings aren't as into it as I have become.

I appreciate the head-fi community for the hugely eye opening and great experience I've had in my 18 months in this world high-end headphones/sources/amps. I had no clue about it. I just had an appreciation for better than average sound. I came here myself. That seed of appreciation for great sound was already there, nurtured in me while growing up.

I'd expect that it would be individuals like myself that the community would mainly wish to attract. I just don't agree with the attitude of referring to the masses, i.e., those without a similar appreciation for things head-fi as us, as somehow deprived and in need of enlightenment. There are those who look at me and consider me deprived for taking my time and money to pursue things head-fi. Of course, my feeling on the matter is that it's just an exhibition of the typical intolerance or feeling of superiority that goes with somehow feeling that one knows better or sees the light while others don't.

With regard to things material and having to do with the sense pleasures, we have to be very careful. There's no right or wrong here.

Though not always, but in this instance, I'm fully with Tyll where his intentions are concerned. It's the implementation of it that makes for great discussion. More clarity is in order where some of the writeups are concerned. Tyll has admitted to this and I'll be watching with interest how things develop.

This stance of 'we really need to show people what they are missing' is really tiring and quite arrogant to say the least. However, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't offer information and shared experience with those who do express an interest, even if small.

 

[Uri Cohen]

I understand where Tyll is coming from but even I am having a hard time trying to look at Headroom with a straight face.