[DeadByDawn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan Funny you should mention this. As I explained above, even after I turned off the X-Fi's DAC, the HRD wouldn't read the incoming signal as digital. I had to use the analog switch. I'm not sure what this means, but the most obvious conclusion is that I really didn't disable the X-Fi's DAC. Or, despite the shutdown of the DAC, the digital signal is still being converted and being output as analog. Hmmm.

Yeah, that is wierd.
I have the Fatal1ty model so i think it would be easier to test because my 5.25 bay control has a Toslink Optical Out. I pulled the protector out so its always on (saw the pulsing light). I would imagine if i had the HRD i would just plug this optical right into the back and hit the switch.
I took a look at the breakout box that comes with the EP and it doesnt look like you have an Toslink Optical out (you would think that their top of the line model would have this).

So in summary i guess i can conclude that whatever the setup is, the HRD provides a significant better sound than the x-fi sound card by itself.

Can you describe the difference in words?

I was thinking about taking the plunge and getting the Desktop with the Home amp and DAC upgrade. Its going to be 1000 big ones.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn Yeah, that is wierd. I have the Fatal1ty model so i think it would be easier to test because my 5.25 bay control has a Toslink Optical Out. I pulled the protector out so its always on (saw the pulsing light). I would imagine if i had the HRD i would just plug this optical right into the back and hit the switch. I took a look at the breakout box that comes with the EP and it doesnt look like you have an Toslink Optical out (you would think that their top of the line model would have this).

DBD, the console does have the optical in/out. I haven't used them, but I can see the pulsing light behind the protector.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn So in summary i guess i can conclude that whatever the setup is, the HRD provides a significant better sound than the x-fi sound card by itself. Can you describe the difference in words? I was thinking about taking the plunge and getting the Desktop with the Home amp and DAC upgrade. Its going to be 1000 big ones.

I went the route of emphasizing headphones over amps, getting the best cans I could afford and scrimping on the amps. But I always knew that a weak link in the lineup pretty much defeats the purpose of quality in the other parts. So I finally took the plunge, as you're contemplating. After researching the options, I chose the HeadRoom amp. After looking at all the different models, I realized I couldn't afford the high end: Home $3700 and Max $4100, and definitely not the balanced models. The Desktop was within reach, and it seemed to have all the features I wanted. I decided to stretch a bit more for the max module, max DAC, stepped attenuator, and the DPS because I knew I'd be what-iffing myself to death if I didn't: What if I had gotten the max module? What if I had added the max DAC?

As soon as I got the box from HeadRoom, I set it up with my other gear. Clicked on play, and, presto, another layer of veil fell from my music. Reviewers have already put it in so many words, but the cliches are worth repeating. It really is as though I'm listening to my music for the first time, hearing so much more: the crystal clarity of each instrument, of each voice; the natural interplay of all -- as the producer had intended. "Volume" is a misnomer on the Desktop. It doesn't so much increase loudness as incrementally sharpen and liven each element in the music. The highs are crystal clear. The mids, sharp, dynamic. The lows, tight, punchy. But more importantly, the aggregate is full, rich, deep, organic. Alive.

But the added dimension is the crossfeed, the natural flow of the music on the soundstage created by the amp + headphones. Natural in the sense that there's no longer a discrete left, right, and middle. There's just the soundspace, with the elements moving independently in my head, holding true to their individual nature and their role in the overall composition. In comparison, the previous headstage seems artificial, predictable. The Desktop's headroom is fo' real, and as such, it accurately reproduces music with all the surprises and nuances that audiophiles die for.

The veil from the HD650s has disappeared. The top to bottom clarity is astonishing, and the soundstage has expanded to the point where it's no longer claustrophobic. The bass in the K701s has moved closer to the front, tighter and punchier. And it's hard to imagine, but the already vast soundstage is even more expansive, airier. (I'm tempted to say "aerier" <g>.)

My impression of Tyll (HeadRoom head) is that he's one of us - people who genuinely love listening to good music, and that he's driven to eliminate, layer by layer, the veils that stand between us and music as it really is. The Desktop does the job, bringing us closer to headphone nirvana than we've ever been.

I'm impressed with HeadRoom's business style. Unassuming, not phony. This style is also in the design of the Desktop. Honest, solid, unassuming. One reviewer was critical of the plain-jane appearance and wished for an LCD window with flashy playback indicators. But from my perspective, the blocks (amp + p/s), one on top of the other, with the little green LEDs, the heft and texture, look and feel, front and back layout of functions -- perfect as is. The style is timeless. Impressive as hell! It screams high end, but in sotto voce <g>. And it looks great on my desktop!

I'm enjoying my music all over again!

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Hi Guys,

There seems to be a great deal of confusion regarding just how to properly contact the A/B test I was suggesting. This is quite understandable considering just how many different configurations of the X-Fi card there are and the various that one can connect these cards to one's headphones and stereos. So I will try to better explain just what it is I'm looking for. Now mean you, this may get a little long winded since head-fi doesn't allow one to post pictures from manufacturers web sites and some of those would be really helpful in explaining just what is going on. Oh well, I try and do without.

Let's start back at the beginning.

The X-Fi card does all of it's sound processing, things like CSS, 24 bit Crystalizer, EAX, etc, in the digital domain and only does the digital to analog conversion as the very last step before sending out the signal from the card. So depending on how one physically makes one's connections to the card, e.g. exactly which outlets on the rear of the X-Fi card (or the breakout box or the console) one plugs into, one will get either an analog or a digital output.

I would love to say that that was all there was to it but things are not that easy since in the case of the X-Fi Xtreme Music card there are no enough output jacks to go around on the rear of the card and in order to get a digital output one must "turn on" or enable the digital output of the "flexi-jack" via the software. I don't know if one has to do this for the X-Fi card with break out boxes and consoles since I don't have that type of card.

Okay so step one would be to determine if you are using analog of digital connections from your X-Fi card. This should be rather simple since the only way to connect an analog signal would be to an analog input via an analog cable. So if the cable going from the X-Fi is going to a reciever, integrated amp or headphone amp and it is connected via a pair of RCA jacks to a line level analog input to something like the "aux" input) then it's an analog output coming from the X-Fi card.

On the other hand, if the output of the X-Fi card is going to the digital input of a reciever, integrated amp or headphone amp then the digital output of the X-Fi card is being used.

To run the A/B test one first needs to understand how to made all the required connections and properly set the software so that all the processing is turned off and digital output is enabled. Believe me, the whole is one big pain in the neck.

A few further notes.

The digital output of the X-Fi Xtreme Card is not an optical type but a simple coaxial type with a 1/8" mono plug needed at the card end and a RCA jack needed at the Desktop amp end. The X-Fi breakout box and console both have optical digital outputs.

Enabling the digital output of the X-Fi's flexi-jack does not disable the analog output of the other jacks so it is possible to have simultaneous digital and analog outputs from the X-Fi card, which is exactly how my card is presently being used - digital output into my Desktop amp for headphone listening and analog output into my preamp for listening through my speakers.

And as I said several posts back, there is very, very little difference between the DAC of the X-Fi card and the DAC of the Headroom Deasktop amp.

 

[4N6]

I have been using a maxed out HR Desktop amp (bought in May 2006) with Senn HD650/Equinox and AKG K701. I am extremely impressed with the smoothness and lack of grain. I do not perceive any solid state hardness with this amp with the mids and highs very liquid. Bass has a lot of initial impact (leading edges being emphasized?) and with terrific tone quality.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torske I have been using a maxed out HR Desktop amp (bought in May 2006) with Senn HD650/Equinox and AKG K701. I am extremely impressed with the smoothness and lack of grain. I do not perceive any solid state hardness with this amp with the mids and highs very liquid. Bass has a lot of initial impact (leading edges being emphasized?) and with terrific tone quality.

I have the almost the same setup: a maxed out HR Desktop amp w/2006 module, stepped attenuator, Desktop Power Supply, Senn HD650/Cardas and AKG K701 with Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable and I completely agree with your description of the sound of the Desktop amp.

Just to clarify, I also have a second older HR Desktop amp with a DAC which I picked used on eBay that use in my computer setup and although it too sounds very nice, it is not in the same league as the maxed out HR Desktop.

 

[4N6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline I have the almost the same setup: a maxed out HR Desktop amp w/2006 module, stepped attenuator, Desktop Power Supply, Senn HD650/Cardas and AKG K701 with Moon Audio Silver Dragon cable and I completely agree with your description of the sound of the Desktop amp.

Yeah, I have been nothing but impressed. About recabling the K701s...what are your impressions of the differences? The Senns seem to benefit quite a lot, but the AKGs? Black Dragon vs Silver?

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline Hi Guys, On the other hand, if the output of the X-Fi card is going to the digital input of a reciever, integrated amp or headphone amp then the digital output of the X-Fi card is being used.

Hey, RalphP. Does this mean that the receiving equipment, e.g., headphone amp, determines the output of the X-Fi? That is, if I set the HR Desktop (HRD) to digital input, the HRD will ignore the X-Fi's analog signal and grab the digital? Or does it convert the analog to digital – and convert it back to analog?
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline To run the A/B test one first needs to understand how to made all the required connections and properly set the software so that all the processing is turned off and digital output is enabled. Believe me, the whole is one big pain in the neck.

I'd be interested in learning how you turn off the X-Fi's DAC via Creative's software control suite. Turning off the other enhancing features is pretty upfront.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline And as I said several posts back, there is very, very little difference between the DAC of the X-Fi card and the DAC of the Headroom Deasktop amp.

I haven't been able to replicate this test. I'm still not clear on the procedures via the setup that I have. Perhaps others will try it. Also, in an earlier post, I expressed my concern about whether or not the DACs could actually be isolated from the rest of the system to determine which is better. It seems to me that other elements in the system (besides the DACs) will still affect the signal. Thus, if there doesn't appear to be a difference between the A and B lineups, it could simply mean that the two actually aren't different. That is, despite the experimenter's manipulations, the HRD still kicks in and processes the signal, however it receives it.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torske I have been using a maxed out HR Desktop amp (bought in May 2006) with Senn HD650/Equinox and AKG K701. I am extremely impressed with the smoothness and lack of grain. I do not perceive any solid state hardness with this amp with the mids and highs very liquid. Bass has a lot of initial impact (leading edges being emphasized?) and with terrific tone quality.

Hey, Torske. How about that midshipman, Kaipo-Noa Kaheaku-Enhada! Another Roger Staubach? Anyway, good choices -- HD650s, K701s, HRD! If you don't mind my asking, what source are you using for the HRD? Computer via sound card? Component CD?

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torske Yeah, I have been nothing but impressed. About recabling the K701s...what are your impressions of the differences? The Senns seem to benefit quite a lot, but the AKGs? Black Dragon vs Silver?

I was thinking about having this recabling done before I inserted the HeadRoom Desktop in my lineup. Now the K701s seem perfect. When I'm fatigued by the 650s' hard bass and tightness, I turn to the 701s and find immedate relief without losing anything except the hard 'n' tight. But I almost always begin with the 650s for the dynamic kick, like black coffee in the morning. The 701s are like green tea in the afternoon <g>. Still, I'd like to hear Ralph's thoughts, too.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torske Yeah, I have been nothing but impressed. About recabling the K701s...what are your impressions of the differences? The Senns seem to benefit quite a lot, but the AKGs? Black Dragon vs Silver?

I get asked that question a lot but I really can't answer it since when I bought the AKGs they had already been recabled. Sorry. I can say that they sound fantastic with the Silver Dragon cable, very clean and fast, just as one would expect with a silver cable.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan I was thinking about having this recabling done before I inserted the HeadRoom Desktop in my lineup. Now the K701s seem perfect. When I'm fatigued by the 650s' hard bass and tightness, I turn to the 701s and find immedate relief without losing anything except the hard 'n' tight. But I almost always begin with the 650s for the dynamic kick, like black coffee in the morning. The 701s are like green tea in the afternoon <g>. Still, I'd like to hear Ralph's thoughts, too.

Quite well said. The K701s have a certain degree of air about them that the HD650s do not and this makes the K701s just a bit more laid back but in a very good way. Kind of like a comfy living room chair versus a comfy office chair.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan Hey, RalphP. Does this mean that the receiving equipment, e.g., headphone amp, determines the output of the X-Fi? That is, if I set the HR Desktop (HRD) to digital input, the HRD will ignore the X-Fi's analog signal and grab the digital? Or does it convert the analog to digital – and convert it back to analog? I'd be interested in learning how you turn off the X-Fi's DAC via Creative's software control suite. Turning off the other enhancing features is pretty upfront. I haven't been able to replicate this test. I'm still not clear on the procedures via the setup that I have. Perhaps others will try it. Also, in an earlier post, I expressed my concern about whether or not the DACs could actually be isolated from the rest of the system to determine which is better. It seems to me that other elements in the system (besides the DACs) will still affect the signal. Thus, if there doesn't appear to be a difference between the A and B lineups, it could simply mean that the two actually aren't different. That is, despite the experimenter's manipulations, the HRD still kicks in and processes the signal, however it receives it.

I'll tyr to answer these questions one at a time.

First the receiving equipment does not determine the output of the X-Fi - you, the user, determines the output of the X-fi by selecting which output you use. If you use the analog outputs, the output is analog and if you use the digital outputs, the output is digital. See my earlier post.

As for how to enable the digital output of the flexi jack I suggest that you go onto the Creative web site and look in the support section. They have detailed information on just how one goes about doing that for all the various types of X-Fi cards on the market. In all cases the digital output is enabled via a software setting so there's no hardware tinkering involved.

Once you've got that figured out running the A/B test shouldn't be all that difficult. And yes, it is entirely possible to isolate the DACs of the X-Fi card and the HR Desktop amp from the rest of the system so that the A/B test I am proposing can in fact be conducted.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline I'll tyr to answer these questions one at a time. First the receiving equipment does not determine the output of the X-Fi - you, the user, determines the output of the X-fi by selecting which output you use. If you use the analog outputs, the output is analog and if you use the digital outputs, the output is digital. See my earlier post. As for how to enable the digital output of the flexi jack I suggest that you go onto the Creative web site and look in the support section. They have detailed information on just how one goes about doing that for all the various types of X-Fi cards on the market. In all cases the digital output is enabled via a software setting so there's no hardware tinkering involved. Once you've got that figured out running the A/B test shouldn't be all that difficult. And yes, it is entirely possible to isolate the DACs of the X-Fi card and the HR Desktop amp from the rest of the system so that the A/B test I am proposing can in fact be conducted. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

RalphP, like most things head-fi, the more I dig, the more I dig <G>. Or the more I learn, the less I know [LOL]. I can't promise success anytime soon, but I'll keep futzing with this problem of the X-Fi vs HRD DACs. On another note, just for kicks, I inserted the LDII+ in the HRD's place in my lineup to see if the HRD makes a difference. The LDII+ produced a clear, warm, rich signal that made the HD650s sound great. This little amp is a keeper. I can listen to it for hours on end. Next, I went back to the HRD and listened to the same music. Qualitatively better in all areas. Soundstage, separation, clarity. BTW, I've always run it with the brightness filter off, but this evening I'm trying it with the crossfeed off and find myself actually liking this setup better.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan RalphP, like most things head-fi, the more I dig, the more I dig <G>. Or the more I learn, the less I know [LOL]. I can't promise success anytime soon, but I'll keep futzing with this problem of the X-Fi vs HRD DACs. On another note, just for kicks, I inserted the LDII+ in the HRD's place in my lineup to see if the HRD makes a difference. The LDII+ produced a clear, warm, rich signal that made the HD650s sound great. This little amp is a keeper. I can listen to it for hours on end. Next, I went back to the HRD and listened to the same music. Qualitatively better in all areas. Soundstage, separation, clarity. BTW, I've always run it with the brightness filter off, but this evening I'm trying it with the crossfeed off and find myself actually liking this setup better.

First, so that's how you spell "futzing"!! Good to know. Second, there have been plenty of discussions here on head-fi of LDII+ versus just about every other amp on the market, just do a search of the forums. And lastly, there have been plenty of discussions here on head-fi of crossfeed versus no crossfeed, just do a search of the forums.

I happen to like crossfeed. I've been using it with my various Headroom amps since I got my first Headroom amp back in 1994 so I guess I'm quite used to the sound of it by now but there are lots of people who don't care for it at all. To each his own.

 

[knalb]

well i learned some things about my x-fi. i wish I had an external DAC. I just have a cmoy so i just use the analog out..but if i acquire an external DAC one day i'll remember this!