[granodemostasa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan On your tip, I just searched & found senn650fan's (7 Oct 06) "Corda Opera- Pics. Who else has reserved one?" That's a mean-looking amp! Like a fortress carved out of a steel brick. I know that Dr. Meier has a great rep, but I tend to be a sucker for the going pop brands like Headroom, AKG, Sennheiser, Cardas, especially when the digits start to roll up on the pricetag. No guts -- no glory.

hi
Meier has been around longer than headroom, and retains it's value better (because headroom keeps updating so much that it kills the price on the FS forum).
also, Cardas is overpriced and their headphone cable is terrible for the HD650, but pretty decent for the hd600.
sennheiser is fine, so is AKG

 

[MikeW]

The dac on the x-fi is really good, but the op-amps it uses sucks. That said, there's a huge difference between my X-fi and CI VDA-2. The x-fi is cold, analytical and digital sounding compared to the sweet, analogue sound of the VDA2, which gives up no detail in comparison. The expensive x-fi has much better op-amps on the output jacks. YMMV

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeW The dac on the x-fi is really good, but the op-amps it uses sucks. That said, there's a huge difference between my X-fi and CI VDA-2. The x-fi is cold, analytical and digital sounding compared to the sweet, analogue sound of the VDA2, which gives up no detail in comparison. The expensive x-fi has much better op-amps on the output jacks. YMMV

Mike,

I'm just a little bit confused after reading your post. First you state that the X-Fi's op-amps "suck" but then you end the post by stating that the X-Fi "has much better op-amps on the output jacks." What??

Could you please clarify?

And while you're at it, what is a "CI VDA-2" and what does "YMMV" mean? By the way, (BTW) if you don't know what "What??" means, PM (private message) me and I'll let you know

 

[gates_2]

I believe he was referring to the lower model xfis vs the elite pro

Interesting... I thought that the major upgrade on the elite pro was the addition of AKM dacs, not the opamps...time to do some more reading

Sitting here right now comparing the headphone out of the breakout box on my elite pro vs a pimeta--- pimeta blows it away, although the headphone out is still respectable.

 

[luckybaer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline Mike, I'm just a little bit confused after reading your post. First you state that the X-Fi's op-amps "suck" but then you end the post by stating that the X-Fi "has much better op-amps on the output jacks." What?? Could you please clarify? And while you're at it, what is a "CI VDA-2" and what does "YMMV" mean? By the way, (BTW) if you don't know what "What??" means, PM (private message) me and I'll let you know

IIRC, YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary.

IOW, you may have a different experience due to a number of variables that I am unable to quantify ATT.

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
IOW = In Other Words
ATT = At This Time

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Thanks luckybaer, that really helps to clear things up.

As far the X-Fi's DAC, op-amp and all the other technical stuff goes, things are starting to go just a bit over my head. Plus if people, myself included, are going to make statements based on comparative listening tests it might be just a little bit more helpful if they gave us some more background other than just "a sounds better than b".

Things like music used, in what ways a sounded better than b, e.g. bass, treble, soundstage, etc., other equipment used, you know the drill, just like in those magazines we all love to trash

Regardless of the DAC or op-amp used in any soundcard, an outboard DAC makes much more sense these days since the life span of the average computer is pretty short and many outboard DACs are made to be user upgradeable and besides they are not locked into your computer and it's operating system. If I had the chance to do it all over again, I would not buy any soundcard for my computer and just go with the DAC in the Desktop amp or a similiar product.

 

[feifan]

ralphp, I'm not sure if I understand what your position is on the X-Fi -> HR Desktop (HRD) amp combination. Are you saying that it works fine? I've been experimenting with different combintions and find that the X-Fi -> HRD -> HD650 lineup doesn't work very well. Bypassing the X-Fi altogether, as in this lineup:

CD player -> amp -> HRD -> HD650

works best for me. With the X-Fi in the lineup, the sound is veiled, muddy. Bypass it, and WOW!

This means listening off CDs instead of ripped tracks, but the difference is so extreme that I can't go back to the tracks on my computer.

 

[ralphp@optonline]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan ralphp, I'm not sure if I understand what your position is on the X-Fi -> HR Desktop (HRD) amp combination. Are you saying that it works fine? I've been experimenting with different combintions and find that the X-Fi -> HRD -> HD650 lineup doesn't work very well. Bypassing the X-Fi altogether, as in this lineup: CD player -> amp -> HRD -> HD650 works best for me. With the X-Fi in the lineup, the sound is veiled, muddy. Bypass it, and WOW! This means listening off CDs instead of ripped tracks, but the difference is so extreme that I can't go back to the tracks on my computer.

What you're saying above is something related to this discussion but of entirely different area. Without going off on too much of a tangent and hopefully without drawing too many angry responses let me try and clarify things a bit.

Like you, I do not use my computer for playing music CDs. I use a stand alone CD player. I believe that it sounds much better, whether I'm listening to speakers or headphones and whether I'm playing the CD directly or a ripped file, be that file a wav, flac or MP3 (of any bit rate). So on that we both agree.

What I was trying to say in the post you're referring to is that the X-Fi card does have a rather nice output, the Sony ES CD player's output is still better and the best possible sound would be to listen to CD's via the Sony ES CD player.

Quote:

To listen to a CD played on your Sony ES player through the Desktop amp you still have to run a second set of cables from the player (or your preamp/receiver) over to the analog inputs of the Desktop amp.

I do, however, realize, that I didn't quite make myself clear.

All that being said, I would still be interested in finding out what you think about the comparison of the X-Fi DAC versus the Desktop DAC using flac or MP3 files. In other words, set up A would be:

X-Fi (analog out) -> Desktop amp (analog in) -> Headphones

Set up B:

X-Fi (Digital out) -> Desktop amp (digital in) -> Headphones

Just remember to turn off all the b.s. processing on the XiFi card for both set ups, i.e. no CSS, no Crystalizer, no EAX, no STP, no ABC, no XYZ, no nothing!!!

Please let me (and us) know what you hear.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralphp@optonline I would still be interested in finding out what you think about the comparison of the X-Fi DAC versus the Desktop DAC using flac or MP3 files. In other words, set up A would be: X-Fi (analog out) -> Desktop amp (analog in) -> Headphones Set up B: X-Fi (Digital out) -> Desktop amp (digital in) -> Headphones Just remember to turn off all the b.s. processing on the XiFi card for both set ups, i.e. no CSS, no Crystalizer, no EAX, no STP, no ABC, no XYZ, no nothing!!! Please let me (and us) know what you hear.

RalphP, see my revised response below.

 

[DeadByDawn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by feifan Set up B: X-Fi (Digital out) -> Desktop amp (digital in) -> Headphones

I am very interested in this test because it will help me determine if buying an amp for my computer gaming is worth it.

I was leaning toward x-fi digital-out to the Headroom Desktop setup with a DAC for several reasons:
1) optical interconnects/cables are cheap (and i have some already)
2) an amp with a DAC built in will easily let me connect it to my desktop or sony ES cd player.

Post your results.
Thanks

 

[feifan]

[REVISED 11 NOV 2006]
RalphP, let me try this again. I've had time to think through your proposed test, and I believe I now understand where you're coming from. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm assuming that all signals entering the X-Fi (I have the EP model) from the computer are digital and that the X-Fi's DAC converts them to analog. (I'm not sure where the DAC is located -- on the card or in the console?) Thus, in my lineup -- X-Fi to HeadRoom Desktop amp (HRD) – the HRD is switched to analog input. In this configuration, the HRD's DAC is sitting idle, and the conversion-related portions of the signals that pass through and reach my headphones (HD650s) are the product of the X-Fi DAC.

The test you're suggesting requires a second configuration that will bypass the X-Fi's DAC (as well as all the other X-Fi signal enhancements such as crystallizer, 3D, and EAX). Thus, the signal output by the X-Fi is still digital and un-enhanced – vanilla. This vanilla signal is fed into the HRD, which is now switched to digital input. The HRD's DAC kicks in and converts the vanilla to analog – to pure HeadRoom chocolate <G>.

If I'm correct, you're saying that comparing these two lineups will tell us whether or not there's a significant difference between the quality of signal output by the X-Fi DAC and the HRD DAC. The null hypothesis we're testing is that there's little or no difference, i.e., based on the signals that finally reach our headphones, the X-Fi's DAC does just as good a job as the HRD's. Am I correct so far?

If I'm on the same page as you are, then this is where I'll need your help. I'm not sure how to switch off the X-Fi's DAC. Is there a software switch buried in the Creative onscreen control suite? The only mention of "DAC" that I came across had something to do with the Dolby controls. Is this the switch? I don't see a hardware switch on the console to turn off the X-Fi DAC.

I'll wait until I hear from you before I begin the test. If someone else knows how to turn off the X-Fi's DAC, I hope she/he will clue me in.

On another note, I have a concern about the design of this study: I'm not sure if controlling for the effects of the DACs, alone, is enough. As long as the signal passes through either system, X-Fi or HRD, regardless of whether the DACs are on or off, my guess is that the signal is somehow being affected by one or more of the other components. Thus, the signal emerging from the HRD, whether or not the DAC is switched off, is still being changed in some way. This means that the quality of the sound DACed by the X-Fi and subsequently passing through the HRD (with DAC switched off) is still being enhanced by other elements in the HRD.

An alternate test might use a different sound card with the HRD, on the one hand, and a different headphone amp with the X-Fi, on the other. The problem with this design, though, is that the lineups would no longer be similar, invalidating any comparisons.

Maybe others can think of an alternate design that would work.

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn I am very interested in this test because it will help me determine if buying an amp for my computer gaming is worth it. I was leaning toward x-fi digital-out to the Headroom Desktop setup with a DAC for several reasons: 1) optical interconnects/cables are cheap (and i have some already) 2) an amp with a DAC built in will easily let me connect it to my desktop or sony ES cd player. Post your results. Thanks

Hi, DeadByDawn. To obtain a digital out from the X-Fi, you'll need to switch off the X-Fi's DAC. Can this be done? If yes, how?

 

[feifan]

OK, I thnk I found the software switch to turn off the X-Fi's internal DAC. It's the DTS feature, and I clicked on "ON (external decoder)." I hope I have this right. In any case, the sound quality difference is phenomenal so I'm assuming the Headroom Desktop DAC is at work.

 

[DeadByDawn]

Thanks for the reply.

I dont think it matters if you turn the HRD dac on or off for the specific test case.

If you go optical out from your x-fi, thats a pure digital signal. The only way to interpret it would be using the DAC on the HRD.

If you go analog out from your x-fi, then even if the DAC is enabled on the HRD there is nothing to translate anyway, so i imagine its sitting idle.

Thoughts?

 

[feifan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn Thanks for the reply. I dont think it matters if you turn the HRD dac on or off for the specific test case.

Hi, DBD. It's a switch in the back panel of the HRD, digital or analog, that IDs the incoming signal. In fact, since I turned off the DAC in the X-Fi, I thought I'd need to switch the input on the HRD to digital, but doing so cut off all signals. I switched it back to analog and the signals returned, and I swear, it sounds great! The only difference between my old setup and this newer setup, then, is the switch ajustment (disabling the X-Fi's internal DAC) I made in the X-Fi. Seems to have made all the difference in the world since the HRD has now taken over the DAC and othe rfunctions. All of the X-Fi's enhancements (3D, etc.) have been turned off in the new and old configurations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn If you go optical out from your x-fi, thats a pure digital signal. The only way to interpret it would be using the DAC on the HRD.

What you're sayig makes sense. I was thinking along these lines, too, when I first replied to Ralph. But now I'm not so sure about the role of the X-Fi's optical SPDIF In/Out jacks re DACs. This is from the online manual: "Connect recording/playback devices with optical jacks (for example, MiniDisc recorders, Digital Audio Tape recorders or external hard disk recorders) to these jacks."

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeadByDawn If you go analog out from your x-fi, then even if the DAC is enabled on the HRD there is nothing to translate anyway, so i imagine its sitting idle. Thoughts?

Funny you should mention this. As I explained above, even after I turned off the X-Fi's DAC, the HRD wouldn't read the incoming signal as digital. I had to use the analog switch. I'm not sure what this means, but the most obvious conclusion is that I really didn't disable the X-Fi's DAC. Or, despite the shutdown of the DAC, the digital signal is still being converted and being output as analog. Hmmm.