[halo26]

As to what the "correct" sound stage is, I agree that to some extent the decisions of the mixer is relevant for a lot of music. But I think it's much less arbitrary for a classical music concert for example recorded in a particular venue. There is still some arbitrariness as the microphones would usually be placed somewhere that doesn't precisely replicate any given seat in the auditorium.

I'm surprised by what I think is the lack of good information on this. I wonder for example, whether an expert classical music listener Would be able to listen to several recordings and identify the hall in which they were played. Or whether a recording made in a particular hall was mixed in a way to make it sound like it was actually recorded in a different hall. And of course the impact of different headphone gear on on the above questions. It seems to me that classical music would be ideal to really get a good measure of this. Live concerts (eg rock) which utilize microphones and amplifiers have so many variables that it would be almost impossible to determine Whether it sounded realistic unless the listener was actually there.

 

[bigshot]

Recording and mixing to create soundstage, or to not create fixed realistic soundstage by choice involves creative decisions and is complex. Reproducing soundstage in the home is a relatively simple matter of setting up your listening room correctly.

If you want examples of vivid and realistic soundstage, the opera recordings by John Culshaw for Decca that pioneered the technique under the name “sonic stage” are a good place to start. There are lots of small group jazz records with realistic soundstage too.

 

[halo26]

That may be...... in fact I'm sure it is because you are much more of an expert than I am. ( It may be hard to tell in a written form rather than meeting face-to-face but I am truly not being sarcastic in any way. you can see I'm a complete newbie and you obviously aren't.)
But it's still correct that very few audio reviewers online makes specific reference to the realism of the sound stage while listening to classical music, And I've seen almost no analysis of this by those reviewers who "specialize" in headphones.
( Some will make reference to classical music by referencing a pop song in which there are background violins mixed in..... When I'm talking about listening to music recorded with a full orchestra in a specific Venue, and I'm interested in assessment of how the headphones sounded relative to the real deal. Again I'm no expert on this but I'm quite sure that there are some amazing reference recordings which are taken as an excellent representation of the actual venue in which they were recorded. And any experienced classical listener would know where the violins would be situated et cetera)

 

[bigshot]

The best way to reproduce the sound of a specific concert hall is using multichannel sound. There are a lot of excellent orchestral recordings in 5.1. Setting up a multichannel speaker system is more complex than setting up a 2 channel one. But the same sort of speaker placement formulas apply.

 

[halo26]

The best way to reproduce the sound of a specific concert hall is using multichannel sound. There are a lot of excellent orchestral recordings in 5.1.

Again, that very well may be but given that 99% of classical recordings and 99.9% of the famous/great ones are stereophonic ( And cannot be reproduced at this point) My real interest is just in trying to figure out how to get the best realistic stereophonic sound from a pair of headphones and a decent dac and amplifier.

 

[bigshot]

Most recordings aren’t intended to present real soundstage. They’re optimized to work well with the two channel medium and the artists’ intent for the sound. Recordings aren’t captures of reality. They are recorded and mixed to create a virtual soundstage that is better than real.

 

[71 dB]

Reproducing soundstage properly isn’t complicated.

If that was the case I think pretty much all recordings would have great soundstage. In my experience that is not the case. Maybe it isn't that simple after all?

It’s just a combination of the distance between the speakers and the distance from the speakers to the listener.

Ears are not measuring sticks. Spatial hearing uses complex spatial cues to deduct the distance of the sound source analysing and comparing for example the direct sound to reflections and reverberation. In fact it is a sign of bad (flat) spatiality if all the sounds appear coming from the distance of the speakers. The recording itself and the room acoustic should contain/modify the spatial cues in a way, that results in a soundstage with depth as an illusion of stereophony. Similar illusions, altho perhaps in smaller scale and increased effort can be created in headphone listening.

You end up with an aural plane in space in front of you extending left to right.

Not really. You need soundfield synthesis (arrays of speakers) to do that properly, but a pair of very large speakers can approximate it.

The dispersion pattern of the speakers can affect it, but that’s just a matter of toeing the speakers in a hair.

Toeing speakers is an easy way to fine-tune the spatiality to your personal liking or/and tackling problems in room acoustics.

The only problem you might run into is if your triangle gets too big. The speakers don’t mesh in the middle and you get a gap in the center of the soundstage. But if you follow the recommended triangle distances, and don’t put more than 8 feet or so between the speakers, you are going to get clear soundstage. (As long as the recording was mixed for clear soundstage… most rock music isn’t recorded that way.)

The size/acoustics of the room and the listening distance dictate proper size of listening triangle.

Most people discussing soundstage on headfi don’t know what they’re talking about because they listen using headphones.

I don't know about others here, but I listen to BOTH speakers and headphones. I was primarily a "speaker guy" for almost 20 years before discovering cross-feed that revolutionised my headphone listening so that for the last 10 years or so I have been primarily a "headphone guy", but I still listen to speakers. I have listened to Duntech Princess speakers in the listening room of the acoustics laboratory I used to work in with carefully designed acoustics plus many other high quality speakers from various Genelec speakers to B&W Nautilus. I am pretty sure I know what cool speaker soundstage means. So, please do not assume we all are headphone idiots who have never heard good speakers in good acoustics.

The who gives the mixers the authority bit made me laugh!

Well, who? Where does such authority come from? Status? Skills? Money?

 

[bigshot]

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

And mixers have the authority to establish the soundstage because that is exactly what they are hired to do!

 

[71 dB]

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yes I am. I believe that's why most arguing is done. My opinions almost never matter in any way outside my own life, so what else could I do with my opinions than argue for the sake of arguing? Why are you arguing?

And mixers have the authority to establish the soundstage because that is exactly what they are hired to do!

That means money creates the authority.

 

[bigshot]

I'm pointing out what soundstage is, who pioneered it, some good examples of soundstage to listen to, and how to properly reproduce it in the home. I'm not arguing. People who dig in on a position, stop really listening, and focus on reactive line by line semantic deconstruction bore me silly. I'm looking for interaction- give and take. When someone's discussion degenerates to "oh yeah? sez you!", I curtly dismiss them.

If you think paid professionals are the wrong people to perform a complex task, try picking an unpaid amateur next time you need brain surgery.

Was that curt enough?

I'm having a conversation with Halo26.

 

[71 dB]

I'm pointing out what soundstage is,

You are pointing out what soundstage means in your own living room using your audio gear. You dismiss other incarnations of soundstage. In fact you deny the existence of soundstage completely when it is about headphones. It seem you don't realise there is no such thing are "real" objective soundstage. Soundstage is always an interpretation of spatial cues done by spatial hearing. What you have in your living room while listening to music is not an objective soundstage, but a somewhat diffuse sound field your spatial hearing interprets as a soundstage, because encoded into that sound field are spatial cues. That's what spatial cues are. They are what happens to sound in an acoustic environment.

who pioneered it,

Who pioneered stereophonic sound has historical interest.

some good examples of soundstage to listen to, and how to properly reproduce it in the home.

That's valid information for sure.

I'm not arguing.

Anyone can say that, but I am a person of intellectual honestly and I admit it when I am arguing.

People who dig in on a position, stop really listening, and focus on reactive line by line semantic deconstruction bore me silly. I'm looking for interaction- give and take. When someone's discussion degenerates to "oh yeah? sez you!", I curtly dismiss them.

Give and take? Have you ever considered anything I say valuable? This is my fifth year on this board and I still feel you think I am a moron who doesn't know what good speaker soundstage sounds like. I haven't seen you change your position on anything here based on "taking" information from other posters. Meanwhile I have changed my opinions about cross-feed:

- Cross-feed working for me doesn't mean it works for everyone.
- Somehow the spatial hearing works a bit differently for every individual. Tolerance against large ILD seems to vary a lot.
- Saying cross-feed makes headphones "sound like speakers" is saying too much (people take it too literally)
- There is a question of "intented" (speaker) spatiality and it is unclear what it means with headphones

I have "taken" these things from this forum and the price has been high: My self-confidence has taken a big hit and I don't know what value I have as a person to the world, but at least I try to be intellectually honest.

If you think paid professionals are the wrong people to perform a complex task, try picking an unpaid amateur next time you need brain surgery.

Was that curt enough?

I'm having a conversation with Halo26.

Of course skilled people are the best ones to perform a complex tasks, but that doesn't remove the facts about how authority works. When a record labels tells a mixer to use more dynamic compression because of commercial reasons, it is money talking, not skills. Those with money have the last word.

 

[bigshot]

You need some fresh air.

 

[71 dB]

You need some fresh air.

Unfortunately the weather is a bit dull here in Helsinki at the moment ( +2°C / 36°F ). It is too warm for a proper winter. The snow is smelting away making the streets slushy / slippery of wet ice. Due to this misery I have cut my outdoor activities by 30-40 %.

 

[sander99]

I haven't seen you change your position on anything here based on "taking" information from other posters.

Maybe you overlooked it but @bigshot - although it took some convincing and some time - seems to have accepted that with proper personal hrtf based binaural audio signals it is possible to have a realistic out-of-head experience, and speaker-like soundstage with headphones. But you are right that he can be a bit stubborn sometimes .

 

[bigshot]

I don't see why we can't talk about the difference between speakers and headphones without becoming unnecessarily argumentative, taking things personally, sharing how we feel about ourselves, or switching to discussing the person instead of the topic. When that happens, I just talk past the blather to the lurkers. It isn't stubbornness. It's just that I refuse to engage once the discourse degrades past a certain point.