ballzac
New Head-Fier
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2010
- Posts
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This is a fairly lengthy post, so I'll put the tldr at the top
tldr;
So, I'm looking for some closed back headphones for use in my music production. I have a pair of ATH-AD900, which are amazing headphones, by the way, both in the design/comfort, as well as sound, but they are far from flat. I also have a pair of Event TR8 (bookshelf sized loudspeaker monitors). I don't know the technicalities of these, but they're definitely the best I've ever had for production. Sometime when I need to be quiet, I use the Audio Technica's for production, and I'm so used to them after having them about a decade, that I can mostly compensate for their frequency signature instinctively, but there are parts in the bass that they just don't portray properly, and if I mix on these for 8 hours straight (even mentally compensating), there is often muddiness and other artefacts in the bass region when I switch to the Events. It's also impoosible to work on any sub bass stuff.
It would be handy to have a pair that are flatter, but the real reason I'm looking into getting new headphones is that I often like to include vocals or acoustic instruments in my music, so I need closed headphones with low leakage for monitoring. Despite being my main reason for wanting to get them, it won't be my main usage. Say, I put vocals or instrumens in a quarter of my tracks, and it might only take me half an hour to record them, and then days of composing other parts with soft synths, arranging, mixing, and mastering. It's highly important for those moments where I will be using it for those puposes, even though it's not the main use. At the moment I'm using IEMs (Sunrise Sw-Xcapes) which were recommended to me here based on the budget I had at the time, but I'm really not a big fan of them. Sometimes I will use them for listening to music or podcasts on the train, but they really don't 'inspire' me while I'm working on music, so I want something much better.
I'd also like to listen to music on them. I listen to a variety of styles. My AD900s are great for a lot of genres (amazing for baroque, which is one of may favourite genres, and shows that even headphones lacking in bass can provide a lot of texture and detail to the bass instruments), but not ideal for things like trance and other 'EDM' styles, so I'll probably use whatever I get for listening to those styles. I know a flat response pair won't have the satisfying oomph of a headphone with a v shaped response, but if it has a wide response, I should be able to compensate for that with EQ if I want.
I want them to be easy to drive. My audio interface is a UMC204HD, which has a notoriously bad headphone amp. A lot of complaints I see about things like preamps are very nit-picky, and often don't bother me as much as I expect ones I get the product. However, the problem with the headphone amp in the UMC204HD is no joke. The AD900s are famously easy to drive, but it's difficult to get a good volume without it sounding like it's routed through a guitar distortion pedal, literally. I also have a Stanton RM-80 which I'm using just for the headphone amp, and this can get up to much higher volume without problem. The recommended maximum headphone impedance in the RM-80 manual is 32--200 Ohm, so anything up to 200 Ohm is worth considering. However, monitoring is simpler when plugged directly into the interface, and as I don't need blistering volumes, I will be okay with it as long as the headphones are easy to drive. I also like the versatility of easy-to-drive headphones, as I can just plug them into my phone if I feel like it, so I would definitely like low impedance (which usually means they're easy to drive), but if you have a suggestion that's perfect in every other way, but which is closer to the 200 Ohm end, don't hesitate to make the suggestions. I'm willing to compromise for good reason.
I've been looking at various reviews and comparing specs, wading through all the personal opinions and contradictions, to try to work out what would be best.
Current ones I'm considering:
AT M40x
AT M50x
Beyerdynamic DT770 (32 Ohm version)
Sony MDR-7506
At the moment, the M40x is the leader. It's commonly regarded as being very flat, detailed, and comfortable. The M50x could be better in a lot of ways. People say that the stock earpads are plusher. IIRC, the cups can turn both ways on the M50x, but only one way on the M40x (it's inwards, which is what I would want, but it's always good to have more flexibility. People say the M40x is much flatter, while the M50x has accentuated bass, but looking at a comparison of the frequency response graphs, they look very similar, and I would say overall the m50x actually looks a little flatter. It seems to a good amplitude down to about 20Hz, while the M40x starts dropping off around 30-40 Hz. Other than that, the spectra are fairly similar, but with the M50x hugging the target 'zero' line more accurately for much of it. The only major difference is at around 13kHz, where the M50x has an attenuating peak, while the M40x has a boost.
I'm not sure how reliable these SonicSense recordings are, but listening to this comparison on my TR-8s, both headphones are almost indistinguishable from source. I can detect some kind of 'sparkle' in the M50x, which doesn't make sense to me based on the graphs, because I would guess this sparkle is around 13kHz where the M50x is actually attenuated. I don't detect any of the boosted base that people talk about with the M50x, but the source tracks probably aren't that good for it. I'd love to see a comparison using EDM, drum and bass, or hiphop.
I am okay with monitoring with coloured sound if it's something that's easy to fix. I won't be doing the final part of the mixing, nor the mastering, on headphones, so if I can get it sounding great on the headphones, and then just need to boost the bass a bit while I'm finishing up the mix or doing the mastering, that's fine. If there are any frequencies that are highly attenuated or there is a lack of detail, it can lead to interactions between instruments that go unnoticed until I switch to my loudspeakers, and these kind of problems can be frustrating to solve, so problems like this would be a deal-breaker. The extended frequency range of the M50x (up to 28kHz instead of 24kHz for the M40x) might be important for this reason.
The main thing that's pointing me more toward the M40x is that a lot of people say they are legitimately better than the M50x, especially if you want flat response. However, these kind of things are hard to interpret. A lot of reviews rate M50x higher, but there is the factor of price-tag that can influence peoples perceptions. The love for the M40x seems more grass roots, like, the general amateur audiophile just feels that they are better. This makes it seem like a believable claim, but I also know how meme (in the original sense of the word) can spread, and most of this is anecdotal. I feel like it's possible that the M50x is just marginally better, but the idea of the much cheaper version being better is so seductive that people like to believe it, and this notion gets spread.
So, is the M40x genuinely flatter than the M50x? Does the 4kHz difference in the frequency range make much difference?
I have also used the M50, and found it comfortable. I didn't to a thorough sound test, but it sounded good to me, and I believe the M50x is very similar.
Regarding the MDR 7506, I have heard that they're super flat, and they're quite cheap. They're also industry standards, which is always a plus. However, I have worn them. I don't remember the sound at all, but I remember them feeling flimsy (even though they're probably durable), and didn't really have a good general impression of them, although I've left them on this list because they're often recommended for the purposes that I want them for. The main thing that puts me off is---and again, I don't know how reliable these tests are---that the SonicSense comparison makes them sound hollow and tiny: not flat at all. The M40x, in the same video, again sound super flat.
The DT770 pro has a lot of good reviews, expecially regarding comfort. I love velour earpads, but I'd rather stick to stock earpads, so this makes the DT770 pro attractive. People say they're not super flat, and the SonicSense comparison seems to support this. They don't sound as bad as the 7506 to my ear, but there's possibly a bit of a v response, with a particular emphasis on the highs, making them sound quite bright. I've also heard that there can be distorion in the low end, which puts me off. Most of the reviews have been for the 80 Ohm version, or the 250 Ohm one. I haven't searched for reviews of the 32 Ohm ones, but I would rather not get the 80 Ohm ones, and the 250 Ohm ones would be a dealbreaker because I don't have any amp that I think could drive them properly.. Comfort is really the only thing that's pointing me towards these, but I don't think this will be my choice for these other reasons.
So, it seems to be between mostly between the M40x and M50x. Although I can probably afford the M50x, I'm not rich, so I certainly don't want to throw money at it unless it will be better, and especially if it will be worse. I feel like the M50x would probably be more comfortable, and the extra weight isn't likely to bother me.I wan't flatness, but will sacrifice a tiny bit if it's simple enough to easily fix any issues during mastering.
One thing that is hard to always find info on is leakage. Because I want these for monitoring while recording, low leakage is a must. Are these good for that? I won't be monitoring at blistering volume, but I don't want any chance of picking up the backing track (I use two microphones, an Mz105be and an MXL770, the latter being condenser, and therefore quite sensitive).
So, yeah, I'm just after advice based on what I want and the answers to some of my questions. Feel free to suggest headphones I haven't mentioned if you think they fit the bill, keeping in mind my budget.
If you got this far, thanks for reading, and I look forward to your responses
tldr;
- I am after a pair of headphones for monitoring while recording (which means I need low leakage, obviously fully closed).
- I will be using them for producing/mixing, so I wan't a pretty flat response, but as long as deviations are simple and/or subtle, I can make adjustments when mastering on my loudspeaker monitors, so while perfect flatness is desirable, it isn't critical.
- I will be listening to music on them, but it's not their primary purpose.
- I sometimes produce for a eight hours straight, so comfort is important, but I can deal with a little bit of heat or weight, as long as there's no hard part pressing on my ear, or anything like that.
- I use an audio interface that has a poor headphone amp, and difficult to drive headphones might be a problem. I can use my mixer, which says it's recommended to not go above 200 Ohm in headphone impedence, so if a pair is perfect in every other way, I might consider going for something, say, 80 Ohm, but for the versatility (and the ability to use my audio interface instead of my mixer, which makes for easier monitoring), I'd rather something in the 30-40 Ohm range.
- Absolute maximum, empty out the piggy bank, budget is $250 AUD, given the exchange rate and the generally higher prices here, I think that equates to about $150 USD. As I'm not wealthy, if the difference between something that's $100 AUD and something that's $200 aud is marginal, I would go for the former, so keep that in mind. All that said, I do want the best tool for the purpose, so if you think of something that is dead perfect, but it's $300 AUD, please suggest it. If it looks promising enough, I'm sure I can wait and save up a bit to get it.
- Headphones currently on my shortlist are the M40x, M50x, BD DT770 Pro, and MDR-7506, but I think I've pretty much ruled out the latter two unless someone manages to convince me otherwise. If I had to buy today, I would purchase the M40x, but feel that I don't completely understand the differences between the M40x and M50x.
So, I'm looking for some closed back headphones for use in my music production. I have a pair of ATH-AD900, which are amazing headphones, by the way, both in the design/comfort, as well as sound, but they are far from flat. I also have a pair of Event TR8 (bookshelf sized loudspeaker monitors). I don't know the technicalities of these, but they're definitely the best I've ever had for production. Sometime when I need to be quiet, I use the Audio Technica's for production, and I'm so used to them after having them about a decade, that I can mostly compensate for their frequency signature instinctively, but there are parts in the bass that they just don't portray properly, and if I mix on these for 8 hours straight (even mentally compensating), there is often muddiness and other artefacts in the bass region when I switch to the Events. It's also impoosible to work on any sub bass stuff.
It would be handy to have a pair that are flatter, but the real reason I'm looking into getting new headphones is that I often like to include vocals or acoustic instruments in my music, so I need closed headphones with low leakage for monitoring. Despite being my main reason for wanting to get them, it won't be my main usage. Say, I put vocals or instrumens in a quarter of my tracks, and it might only take me half an hour to record them, and then days of composing other parts with soft synths, arranging, mixing, and mastering. It's highly important for those moments where I will be using it for those puposes, even though it's not the main use. At the moment I'm using IEMs (Sunrise Sw-Xcapes) which were recommended to me here based on the budget I had at the time, but I'm really not a big fan of them. Sometimes I will use them for listening to music or podcasts on the train, but they really don't 'inspire' me while I'm working on music, so I want something much better.
I'd also like to listen to music on them. I listen to a variety of styles. My AD900s are great for a lot of genres (amazing for baroque, which is one of may favourite genres, and shows that even headphones lacking in bass can provide a lot of texture and detail to the bass instruments), but not ideal for things like trance and other 'EDM' styles, so I'll probably use whatever I get for listening to those styles. I know a flat response pair won't have the satisfying oomph of a headphone with a v shaped response, but if it has a wide response, I should be able to compensate for that with EQ if I want.
I want them to be easy to drive. My audio interface is a UMC204HD, which has a notoriously bad headphone amp. A lot of complaints I see about things like preamps are very nit-picky, and often don't bother me as much as I expect ones I get the product. However, the problem with the headphone amp in the UMC204HD is no joke. The AD900s are famously easy to drive, but it's difficult to get a good volume without it sounding like it's routed through a guitar distortion pedal, literally. I also have a Stanton RM-80 which I'm using just for the headphone amp, and this can get up to much higher volume without problem. The recommended maximum headphone impedance in the RM-80 manual is 32--200 Ohm, so anything up to 200 Ohm is worth considering. However, monitoring is simpler when plugged directly into the interface, and as I don't need blistering volumes, I will be okay with it as long as the headphones are easy to drive. I also like the versatility of easy-to-drive headphones, as I can just plug them into my phone if I feel like it, so I would definitely like low impedance (which usually means they're easy to drive), but if you have a suggestion that's perfect in every other way, but which is closer to the 200 Ohm end, don't hesitate to make the suggestions. I'm willing to compromise for good reason.
I've been looking at various reviews and comparing specs, wading through all the personal opinions and contradictions, to try to work out what would be best.
Current ones I'm considering:
AT M40x
AT M50x
Beyerdynamic DT770 (32 Ohm version)
Sony MDR-7506
At the moment, the M40x is the leader. It's commonly regarded as being very flat, detailed, and comfortable. The M50x could be better in a lot of ways. People say that the stock earpads are plusher. IIRC, the cups can turn both ways on the M50x, but only one way on the M40x (it's inwards, which is what I would want, but it's always good to have more flexibility. People say the M40x is much flatter, while the M50x has accentuated bass, but looking at a comparison of the frequency response graphs, they look very similar, and I would say overall the m50x actually looks a little flatter. It seems to a good amplitude down to about 20Hz, while the M40x starts dropping off around 30-40 Hz. Other than that, the spectra are fairly similar, but with the M50x hugging the target 'zero' line more accurately for much of it. The only major difference is at around 13kHz, where the M50x has an attenuating peak, while the M40x has a boost.
I'm not sure how reliable these SonicSense recordings are, but listening to this comparison on my TR-8s, both headphones are almost indistinguishable from source. I can detect some kind of 'sparkle' in the M50x, which doesn't make sense to me based on the graphs, because I would guess this sparkle is around 13kHz where the M50x is actually attenuated. I don't detect any of the boosted base that people talk about with the M50x, but the source tracks probably aren't that good for it. I'd love to see a comparison using EDM, drum and bass, or hiphop.
I am okay with monitoring with coloured sound if it's something that's easy to fix. I won't be doing the final part of the mixing, nor the mastering, on headphones, so if I can get it sounding great on the headphones, and then just need to boost the bass a bit while I'm finishing up the mix or doing the mastering, that's fine. If there are any frequencies that are highly attenuated or there is a lack of detail, it can lead to interactions between instruments that go unnoticed until I switch to my loudspeakers, and these kind of problems can be frustrating to solve, so problems like this would be a deal-breaker. The extended frequency range of the M50x (up to 28kHz instead of 24kHz for the M40x) might be important for this reason.
The main thing that's pointing me more toward the M40x is that a lot of people say they are legitimately better than the M50x, especially if you want flat response. However, these kind of things are hard to interpret. A lot of reviews rate M50x higher, but there is the factor of price-tag that can influence peoples perceptions. The love for the M40x seems more grass roots, like, the general amateur audiophile just feels that they are better. This makes it seem like a believable claim, but I also know how meme (in the original sense of the word) can spread, and most of this is anecdotal. I feel like it's possible that the M50x is just marginally better, but the idea of the much cheaper version being better is so seductive that people like to believe it, and this notion gets spread.
So, is the M40x genuinely flatter than the M50x? Does the 4kHz difference in the frequency range make much difference?
I have also used the M50, and found it comfortable. I didn't to a thorough sound test, but it sounded good to me, and I believe the M50x is very similar.
Regarding the MDR 7506, I have heard that they're super flat, and they're quite cheap. They're also industry standards, which is always a plus. However, I have worn them. I don't remember the sound at all, but I remember them feeling flimsy (even though they're probably durable), and didn't really have a good general impression of them, although I've left them on this list because they're often recommended for the purposes that I want them for. The main thing that puts me off is---and again, I don't know how reliable these tests are---that the SonicSense comparison makes them sound hollow and tiny: not flat at all. The M40x, in the same video, again sound super flat.
The DT770 pro has a lot of good reviews, expecially regarding comfort. I love velour earpads, but I'd rather stick to stock earpads, so this makes the DT770 pro attractive. People say they're not super flat, and the SonicSense comparison seems to support this. They don't sound as bad as the 7506 to my ear, but there's possibly a bit of a v response, with a particular emphasis on the highs, making them sound quite bright. I've also heard that there can be distorion in the low end, which puts me off. Most of the reviews have been for the 80 Ohm version, or the 250 Ohm one. I haven't searched for reviews of the 32 Ohm ones, but I would rather not get the 80 Ohm ones, and the 250 Ohm ones would be a dealbreaker because I don't have any amp that I think could drive them properly.. Comfort is really the only thing that's pointing me towards these, but I don't think this will be my choice for these other reasons.
So, it seems to be between mostly between the M40x and M50x. Although I can probably afford the M50x, I'm not rich, so I certainly don't want to throw money at it unless it will be better, and especially if it will be worse. I feel like the M50x would probably be more comfortable, and the extra weight isn't likely to bother me.I wan't flatness, but will sacrifice a tiny bit if it's simple enough to easily fix any issues during mastering.
One thing that is hard to always find info on is leakage. Because I want these for monitoring while recording, low leakage is a must. Are these good for that? I won't be monitoring at blistering volume, but I don't want any chance of picking up the backing track (I use two microphones, an Mz105be and an MXL770, the latter being condenser, and therefore quite sensitive).
So, yeah, I'm just after advice based on what I want and the answers to some of my questions. Feel free to suggest headphones I haven't mentioned if you think they fit the bill, keeping in mind my budget.
If you got this far, thanks for reading, and I look forward to your responses