[ballzac]

This is a fairly lengthy post, so I'll put the tldr at the top

tldr;

• I am after a pair of headphones for monitoring while recording (which means I need low leakage, obviously fully closed).
• I will be using them for producing/mixing, so I wan't a pretty flat response, but as long as deviations are simple and/or subtle, I can make adjustments when mastering on my loudspeaker monitors, so while perfect flatness is desirable, it isn't critical.
• I will be listening to music on them, but it's not their primary purpose.
• I sometimes produce for a eight hours straight, so comfort is important, but I can deal with a little bit of heat or weight, as long as there's no hard part pressing on my ear, or anything like that.
• I use an audio interface that has a poor headphone amp, and difficult to drive headphones might be a problem. I can use my mixer, which says it's recommended to not go above 200 Ohm in headphone impedence, so if a pair is perfect in every other way, I might consider going for something, say, 80 Ohm, but for the versatility (and the ability to use my audio interface instead of my mixer, which makes for easier monitoring), I'd rather something in the 30-40 Ohm range.
• Absolute maximum, empty out the piggy bank, budget is $250 AUD, given the exchange rate and the generally higher prices here, I think that equates to about $150 USD. As I'm not wealthy, if the difference between something that's $100 AUD and something that's $200 aud is marginal, I would go for the former, so keep that in mind. All that said, I do want the best tool for the purpose, so if you think of something that is dead perfect, but it's $300 AUD, please suggest it. If it looks promising enough, I'm sure I can wait and save up a bit to get it.
• Headphones currently on my shortlist are the M40x, M50x, BD DT770 Pro, and MDR-7506, but I think I've pretty much ruled out the latter two unless someone manages to convince me otherwise. If I had to buy today, I would purchase the M40x, but feel that I don't completely understand the differences between the M40x and M50x.

So, I'm looking for some closed back headphones for use in my music production. I have a pair of ATH-AD900, which are amazing headphones, by the way, both in the design/comfort, as well as sound, but they are far from flat. I also have a pair of Event TR8 (bookshelf sized loudspeaker monitors). I don't know the technicalities of these, but they're definitely the best I've ever had for production. Sometime when I need to be quiet, I use the Audio Technica's for production, and I'm so used to them after having them about a decade, that I can mostly compensate for their frequency signature instinctively, but there are parts in the bass that they just don't portray properly, and if I mix on these for 8 hours straight (even mentally compensating), there is often muddiness and other artefacts in the bass region when I switch to the Events. It's also impoosible to work on any sub bass stuff.

It would be handy to have a pair that are flatter, but the real reason I'm looking into getting new headphones is that I often like to include vocals or acoustic instruments in my music, so I need closed headphones with low leakage for monitoring. Despite being my main reason for wanting to get them, it won't be my main usage. Say, I put vocals or instrumens in a quarter of my tracks, and it might only take me half an hour to record them, and then days of composing other parts with soft synths, arranging, mixing, and mastering. It's highly important for those moments where I will be using it for those puposes, even though it's not the main use. At the moment I'm using IEMs (Sunrise Sw-Xcapes) which were recommended to me here based on the budget I had at the time, but I'm really not a big fan of them. Sometimes I will use them for listening to music or podcasts on the train, but they really don't 'inspire' me while I'm working on music, so I want something much better.

I'd also like to listen to music on them. I listen to a variety of styles. My AD900s are great for a lot of genres (amazing for baroque, which is one of may favourite genres, and shows that even headphones lacking in bass can provide a lot of texture and detail to the bass instruments), but not ideal for things like trance and other 'EDM' styles, so I'll probably use whatever I get for listening to those styles. I know a flat response pair won't have the satisfying oomph of a headphone with a v shaped response, but if it has a wide response, I should be able to compensate for that with EQ if I want.

I want them to be easy to drive. My audio interface is a UMC204HD, which has a notoriously bad headphone amp. A lot of complaints I see about things like preamps are very nit-picky, and often don't bother me as much as I expect ones I get the product. However, the problem with the headphone amp in the UMC204HD is no joke. The AD900s are famously easy to drive, but it's difficult to get a good volume without it sounding like it's routed through a guitar distortion pedal, literally. I also have a Stanton RM-80 which I'm using just for the headphone amp, and this can get up to much higher volume without problem. The recommended maximum headphone impedance in the RM-80 manual is 32--200 Ohm, so anything up to 200 Ohm is worth considering. However, monitoring is simpler when plugged directly into the interface, and as I don't need blistering volumes, I will be okay with it as long as the headphones are easy to drive. I also like the versatility of easy-to-drive headphones, as I can just plug them into my phone if I feel like it, so I would definitely like low impedance (which usually means they're easy to drive), but if you have a suggestion that's perfect in every other way, but which is closer to the 200 Ohm end, don't hesitate to make the suggestions. I'm willing to compromise for good reason.

I've been looking at various reviews and comparing specs, wading through all the personal opinions and contradictions, to try to work out what would be best.

Current ones I'm considering:

AT M40x
AT M50x
Beyerdynamic DT770 (32 Ohm version)
Sony MDR-7506

At the moment, the M40x is the leader. It's commonly regarded as being very flat, detailed, and comfortable. The M50x could be better in a lot of ways. People say that the stock earpads are plusher. IIRC, the cups can turn both ways on the M50x, but only one way on the M40x (it's inwards, which is what I would want, but it's always good to have more flexibility. People say the M40x is much flatter, while the M50x has accentuated bass, but looking at a comparison of the frequency response graphs, they look very similar, and I would say overall the m50x actually looks a little flatter. It seems to a good amplitude down to about 20Hz, while the M40x starts dropping off around 30-40 Hz. Other than that, the spectra are fairly similar, but with the M50x hugging the target 'zero' line more accurately for much of it. The only major difference is at around 13kHz, where the M50x has an attenuating peak, while the M40x has a boost.

I'm not sure how reliable these SonicSense recordings are, but listening to this comparison on my TR-8s, both headphones are almost indistinguishable from source. I can detect some kind of 'sparkle' in the M50x, which doesn't make sense to me based on the graphs, because I would guess this sparkle is around 13kHz where the M50x is actually attenuated. I don't detect any of the boosted base that people talk about with the M50x, but the source tracks probably aren't that good for it. I'd love to see a comparison using EDM, drum and bass, or hiphop.

I am okay with monitoring with coloured sound if it's something that's easy to fix. I won't be doing the final part of the mixing, nor the mastering, on headphones, so if I can get it sounding great on the headphones, and then just need to boost the bass a bit while I'm finishing up the mix or doing the mastering, that's fine. If there are any frequencies that are highly attenuated or there is a lack of detail, it can lead to interactions between instruments that go unnoticed until I switch to my loudspeakers, and these kind of problems can be frustrating to solve, so problems like this would be a deal-breaker. The extended frequency range of the M50x (up to 28kHz instead of 24kHz for the M40x) might be important for this reason.

The main thing that's pointing me more toward the M40x is that a lot of people say they are legitimately better than the M50x, especially if you want flat response. However, these kind of things are hard to interpret. A lot of reviews rate M50x higher, but there is the factor of price-tag that can influence peoples perceptions. The love for the M40x seems more grass roots, like, the general amateur audiophile just feels that they are better. This makes it seem like a believable claim, but I also know how meme (in the original sense of the word) can spread, and most of this is anecdotal. I feel like it's possible that the M50x is just marginally better, but the idea of the much cheaper version being better is so seductive that people like to believe it, and this notion gets spread.

So, is the M40x genuinely flatter than the M50x? Does the 4kHz difference in the frequency range make much difference?

I have also used the M50, and found it comfortable. I didn't to a thorough sound test, but it sounded good to me, and I believe the M50x is very similar.

Regarding the MDR 7506, I have heard that they're super flat, and they're quite cheap. They're also industry standards, which is always a plus. However, I have worn them. I don't remember the sound at all, but I remember them feeling flimsy (even though they're probably durable), and didn't really have a good general impression of them, although I've left them on this list because they're often recommended for the purposes that I want them for. The main thing that puts me off is---and again, I don't know how reliable these tests are---that the SonicSense comparison makes them sound hollow and tiny: not flat at all. The M40x, in the same video, again sound super flat.

The DT770 pro has a lot of good reviews, expecially regarding comfort. I love velour earpads, but I'd rather stick to stock earpads, so this makes the DT770 pro attractive. People say they're not super flat, and the SonicSense comparison seems to support this. They don't sound as bad as the 7506 to my ear, but there's possibly a bit of a v response, with a particular emphasis on the highs, making them sound quite bright. I've also heard that there can be distorion in the low end, which puts me off. Most of the reviews have been for the 80 Ohm version, or the 250 Ohm one. I haven't searched for reviews of the 32 Ohm ones, but I would rather not get the 80 Ohm ones, and the 250 Ohm ones would be a dealbreaker because I don't have any amp that I think could drive them properly.. Comfort is really the only thing that's pointing me towards these, but I don't think this will be my choice for these other reasons.

So, it seems to be between mostly between the M40x and M50x. Although I can probably afford the M50x, I'm not rich, so I certainly don't want to throw money at it unless it will be better, and especially if it will be worse. I feel like the M50x would probably be more comfortable, and the extra weight isn't likely to bother me.I wan't flatness, but will sacrifice a tiny bit if it's simple enough to easily fix any issues during mastering.

One thing that is hard to always find info on is leakage. Because I want these for monitoring while recording, low leakage is a must. Are these good for that? I won't be monitoring at blistering volume, but I don't want any chance of picking up the backing track (I use two microphones, an Mz105be and an MXL770, the latter being condenser, and therefore quite sensitive).

So, yeah, I'm just after advice based on what I want and the answers to some of my questions. Feel free to suggest headphones I haven't mentioned if you think they fit the bill, keeping in mind my budget.

If you got this far, thanks for reading, and I look forward to your responses

 

[buke9]

Wow you just had what you wanted and think the the HD280 are pretty good also.

 

[ballzac]

Wow you just had what you wanted.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying that the shortlist makes sense based on my requirements and that I should probably go with my gut and get the M40x? Maybe I'm reading too much into it

the HD280 are pretty good also.

Yeah, they were originally on my shortlist as well. They were in that first comparison video along with the M40x and the MDR7506, but I think they sounded way off flat, particularly lacking in the lows and low mids, and possible just 'bad', to my ears. Still no idea how much stock I can put in those comparisons, but both the M40x and the M50x make everything else sound like it's recorded in a tin can, so I can't help being influenced by them, especially since one of my requirements is decent flatness, and that's something that these types of comparisons are good for when they A/B with the source audio. The impedance is also a little higher. I know it's not the sole factor in determining how easy cans are to drive, but it's generally a good rule of thumb, so I'd probably avoid them for that reason alone unless all the other factors seemed perfect.

 

[serman005]

I personally don' t see how an M50X or a DT770 32 ohm are going to meet your needs. Both are so far from flat as to be ridiculous for that purpose. So, of those you list, I think the M40X best fits your criteria. One other you might look into in this price range that is just slighty v-shaped is the SoundMAGIC HP151. Might be worth reading about before you pull the trigger.

 

[ballzac]

I personally don' t see how an M50X or a DT770 32 ohm are going to meet your needs. Both are so far from flat as to be ridiculous for that purpose. So, of those you list, I think the M40X best fits your criteria.

I've heard similar comments about the M50x before, which is why I don't understand the frequency response graphs (the first link in my post), where the M50x looks possibly even flatter than M40x. Word of mouth can be problematic, so I prefer data, but there is such a strong and widespread consensus on this that I can't ignore it, and sometimes things like frequency response graphs can be misleading. Also, as I said, although the M40x sounds flatter than the M50x in the sound comparison, it's by such a fine margin, that it's hard to understand how "so far from flat as to be ridiculous for that purpose" could possilby be a good characterisation. But I also don't know how reliable those sound comparisons are, and they don't include a wide variety of audio samples to compare them with different genres.

One other you might look into in this price range that is just slighty v-shaped is the SoundMAGIC HP151. Might be worth reading about before you pull the trigger.

Never heard of it, so I'll have to look into it. Cheers!

 

[495709]

Worth looking at the Beyer dt 250,80 or 250 ohm,and The Mackie mc250 if you can get them.I have both of these and they are very comfortable.For what you are looking for I would definitely try to find a pair of the Mackies to audition - the price is very competitive as well.

 

[jjk_coffee]

I use KRK KNS 8400's, and am quite happy with it for needs similar to what you describe, check them out as well.

 

[ballzac]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I found the M40x for $30 cheaper than I was originally looking at so although I hadn't looked too deeply into these other options yet, it seemed like a no-brainer. It's so cheap that if I'm not happy with them I won't have wasted a lot of money, and they're one of the most commonly recommended cans for this kind of purpose in this price range (and even higher). Even just having a pair that is comfortable, and low enough leakage that I can record vocals on them will make it worth the cost. If they're flat and detailed enough for me to mix with (they'll certainly be better than my AD900s in flatness), then that's a bonus, and if they give a better listening experience for some bass-heavy genres than the AD900s, which I'm sure they will, then that's a second bonus. There would be plenty of cans that would be better for this last purpose (possibly the m50x, maybe even the hd280) but it's low down on my priorities.

 

[Audio Aficionado]

I think you should also consider the Fostex T50RP. The T50RP is perhaps the flattest sounding headphone I have ever heard. Also i'm a piano player and I use Sony MDR7510 for monitoring, mixing and mastering my recordings, always with good results. The T50RP is flatter than the MDR7510 but the MDR7510 has a more dynamic bass response, and more detailed, with clearer high frequencies. I have not owned the MDR7506 but it looks like the MDR7510 is of higher build quality.

 

[buke9]

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I found the M40x for $30 cheaper than I was originally looking at so although I hadn't looked too deeply into these other options yet, it seemed like a no-brainer. It's so cheap that if I'm not happy with them I won't have wasted a lot of money, and they're one of the most commonly recommended cans for this kind of purpose in this price range (and even higher). Even just having a pair that is comfortable, and low enough leakage that I can record vocals on them will make it worth the cost. If they're flat and detailed enough for me to mix with (they'll certainly be better than my AD900s in flatness), then that's a bonus, and if they give a better listening experience for some bass-heavy genres than the AD900s, which I'm sure they will, then that's a second bonus. There would be plenty of cans that would be better for this last purpose (possibly the m50x, maybe even the hd280) but it's low down on my priorities.

I have not heard the M40x but lots here says they are quite neutral and probably not a bad choice the first thing is picking a pair so you have a reference to judge others . I hope that you like them and they do the job for you.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Sony MDR-V6 or MDR-7506 headphones, fairly easy to drive.

 

[ballzac]

So the M40Xs arrived today. They are great for what I wanted them for. The sound signature is very similar to my TR8s, to my ears, which means I'll feel pretty confident producing on them.

The main thing I wanted them for is monitoring while recording: when I first listened to them, I was worried because the isolation is very poor. I don't care about the isolation itself very much, but I was concerned because poor isolation usually correlates with high leakage. But, I did a test recording---singing with a backing track playing in the headphones---and I can have it louder than I would normally want to monitor without even a detectable amount of leakage in the recording; this is using a condenser mic, too.

As for music listening, they definitely have a smaller soundstage, and less transparency in the highs, than my AD900s, but this was of course expected. My only issue with the sound quality is that the lows seem a little muddy. Obviously, this might be a slight issue with producing as well as listening, but it's nothing I can't live with. It's fairly subtle, and it might just be more a matter of me getting used to them than anything.

Comfort is not perfect, but not bad enough to be a problem. I'm used to my AD900s, with velour earpads and a brilliantly designed mechanism for holding it on your head just perfectly, so I was not expecting these to feel perfect to me. I'll have to see how I go wearing them for several hours at a time, but I think they'll be fine.

 

[Tsukuyomi]

If you're doing serious mastering\mixing\studio work.

AKG K240
Sony MDR 7506
Beyerdynamic DT 990

These three are pretty common, used, known and staples.

Ive heard the Focal listen Pro is also a good one, but to me looks more for casual consumer instead of actual studio work.

 

[PaganDL]

Hi @ballzac,

Apologies for being late to this discussion but hopefully my cents will be put into consideration as I use a lot of pro audio gear more than consumer.

Depending where you are in the big brown land, it is highly recommended to demo though given how much good, affordable gear doesn't actually reach Oz makes it a pain so I sympathise.

Anyway, if you can stretch your budget to consider a few more possibilities which may fit your requirements in no particular order :

Sony MDR 1AM2 (Based of the 7506 though with 1AM2, there is average isolation though depending on your environment & sound levels, not just volume, this is easily compensated)
Shure SRH 940
Mackie MC 250
Coolermaster MH 751 (Not sure it's suitable for you but worth looking at)
Koss Pro4S (Only negative is very average to poor pads)
Neumann NDH 20 (Pinnacle of the current list though more than likely outside your budget though a pro audio place may give a good deal which is close to USD equivalent)

Perhaps something to consider in the near future, budget permitting of course, is a good head amp, a nice affordable one to add functionality & perhaps better sound quality to your setup will definitely help with sound quality.
One I use all the time which I can heartily recommend is Presonus HP 4, not to mention it has excellent passthrough & you can daisy chain up to four units if you need multiple low noise floor outputs.
I tend to use this head amp as a affordable and good audio bridge for other head amps.
I find it funny sometimes I use the HP4 for straight listening more than the RNHP though as stated, the HP 4 is more to extend my audio chain than anything else, is still a very good head amp.
Also, at some stage, it wouldn't hurt to invest in a another audio interface, Lexicon Alpha would be the most basic or any of the Focusrite Scarletts would do, all have good head outs.

As a last point, a monitor controller like the Drawmer MC 2.1 may be useful to you as while the head outs on the unit aren't all that great, they are decent & certainly more powerful than your current interface, not to mention there are good outputs & inputs for accomodating all manner of connections if & when necessary.

Hopefully you find this useful, feel free to ask more if you need.

Hope you have a great day !

 

[baskingshark]

So the M40Xs arrived today. They are great for what I wanted them for. The sound signature is very similar to my TR8s, to my ears, which means I'll feel pretty confident producing on them.

The main thing I wanted them for is monitoring while recording: when I first listened to them, I was worried because the isolation is very poor. I don't care about the isolation itself very much, but I was concerned because poor isolation usually correlates with high leakage. But, I did a test recording---singing with a backing track playing in the headphones---and I can have it louder than I would normally want to monitor without even a detectable amount of leakage in the recording; this is using a condenser mic, too.

As for music listening, they definitely have a smaller soundstage, and less transparency in the highs, than my AD900s, but this was of course expected. My only issue with the sound quality is that the lows seem a little muddy. Obviously, this might be a slight issue with producing as well as listening, but it's nothing I can't live with. It's fairly subtle, and it might just be more a matter of me getting used to them than anything.

Comfort is not perfect, but not bad enough to be a problem. I'm used to my AD900s, with velour earpads and a brilliantly designed mechanism for holding it on your head just perfectly, so I was not expecting these to feel perfect to me. I'll have to see how I go wearing them for several hours at a time, but I think they'll be fine.

Hope you like your M40x. It is definitely the most neutral of the IEMs/headphones I own. Superb for studio monitoring so you can hear exactly what the artiste intended in the recording. Isolation is above average, but I find it a bit uncomfortable after prolonged listening sessions with the stock pads (I use spectacles, maybe it won't affect those without spectacles that much). And I have tried a few different aftermarket pads to improve the comfort but it totally changes the sound signature of the M40x, usually for the worse. Personally I value the sound signature more than comfort so I just have to put up with the mild discomfort and take frequent breaks. The M50x is more popular as it has a bass boosted north of neutral, but it may not be that accurate if you are using it for studio monitoring.

Because of the M40x's neutral signature, I personally find it boring when using it purely to listen to music, compared to some other consumer tuned signatures like V shaped or harman tuning, YMMV.
I agree with you that the sound is a bit muddy compared to higher priced products, but for the relatively cheap price, I can't find much to complain about it, and it is a great option for studio monitoring.